Monosodium Glutamate/MSG: The Topic

[takadi]

Here's another topic on MSG 

 

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/102887-msg-and-its-other-names/

 

Some studies posted on that thread. I also remember seeing a TV show where they did a mini experiment on MSG sensitivity. They randomized a group and had them taste two samples of stir fry, one with MSG and one without. Their ability to detect the MSG (through dramatic claims of headaches and nausea) was almost non-existent. 

 

Many italian dishes are loaded with glutamates and people rarely come out of italian restaurants crying about MSG poisoning. The xenophobia/racism theory holds a lot of water. Though it is entirely possible that chinese restaurants simply do use way more MSG that it outmatches the amount of glutamates in Italian food. I highly doubt that though

 

However, as a completely unscientific observation, I do notice that when I use quite a lot of shiitake mushrooms in my broths, I get that familiar "MSG" reaction, but my reaction to the the glutamates is different than what people usually describe.  It has an almost drug-like euphoric effect for me, and my perception becomes a little hazy. The reaction I get to MSG in restaurants I suspect has more to do with the high sodium content...extreme thirst, numbness.  MSG is mono-*sodium* glutamate after all...something about sodium in the presence of glutamates makes things taste less "salty" and more "tasty", so we don't actually realize we are eating something with tons of salt in it

Edited July 21, 2014 by takadi (log)

[quiet1]

Well it harder for those who has intolerant and no one can figure out why since you shouldn't trigger on MSG and other stuff,  I trigger, I get blister, itchy skin, headaches and in rare cases my throat bleeds from a  host of  chemical food additives.  So I try to eat as natural as I can, but yes even Parmesan can make me ill some days.

I think there is just more going on than a simple study done by something like a tv show is going to identify, for sure. I don't know about other reactions, but my migraines are not necessarily instant as soon as the food touches my lips. Mostly what I get from the studies that have been done properly is that if there is something going on, it is not as straightforward as the studies that have been done so far have been looking at. Studies are generally limited in scope to keep them practically manageable - once you start adding in things like external factors influencing reactions (ex. Migraine triggers) and the possibility that it's actually a food combination issue going on where it isn't necessarily msg alone but msg with something else, and the possibility of differences in how people handle different chemicals... I imagine we will be poking at this one for a good while yet, in the science and medical arenas. (Or possibly something will pop up whole they are studying something else - people who have a documented poor response to drug X have a higher reporting rate of MSG issues, and some bright spark pokes around and finds a link, etc.)

As far as cooking goes, I tend to think it's like most things. If you are hosting, part of being a good host is respecting the people you want to have around for dinner enough to respect their food requests, even if you personally think they're weird. If you can't do that, go out for dinner instead, so they can manage their own meal with the restaurant staff to their satisfaction and you stay out of it. People do have intolerances, and allergies, and medication related food reactions, and eating disorders, all of which may require some understanding as a host. If you don't want to do that, don't invite people over. (Or at least don't bait and switch or leave them in an awkward position on purpose. If you really want to have a dinner party serving Y, invite people to a dinner party where you will be serving Y, and be truthful about how you plan to prepare it when they ask. Then they can gracefully accept or decline and everyone has a good time with no potential health issues because someone decided they knew better than someone else about what they can or should eat.)

The meal I mentioned, there are usually plenty of other yummy things also that aren't seasoned the same way or that I make myself to share with the table, so as long as I know who prepared the dish that has caused issues, I can make an informed choice for myself if I want to risk being triggered or not. If I chose not, I can still have a nice meal, and no one minds me skipping the one dish because it is better than no one seeing me the next day or so because I'm stuck in bed feeling awful.

[loki]

I'm really skeptical about the MSG thing too.  But I have had the chinese restauran sydrome symptoms - years ago - several times after eating soups at different restaurants.  Head pounding, chest tight, sort of a panic attack (maybe the panic came from the symptoms).  It all subsides quickly.  I think it must have been a dosage thing.  I eat ramen noodles with the packet, and other foods with MSG added, with no problem.  I have no reaction to naturally high amounts of glutamate.  I've also eaten many soups in Asian restaurants since with no ill effects.  I can't see it being a placebo effect either, as I did not associate the symptoms with the food till later.  So I think there is something to it, in high amounts, in certain circumstances.  But MSG as the cause of all the other things attributed to it - silly. As for salt - it does not happen that fast. Problems with high salt levels in diet are also mythological rather than science.  Your body is great at compensating for salt - unless you take in a huge amount (like ounces!).  The whole sodium thing is even more touted as based on scientific evidence - whereas it is not really very well supported.  There are whole countries of people that eat lots more salt than people in the US where heart disease or hypertension is nearly non-existent - so logic needs to be used here. There are some people with metabolic problems and kidney disease that can't compensate for sodium levels, but most people can.  In fact is you don't take in any salt (or sodium in any form), you will die, and quickly, as it's a necessary component to metabolism.

[takadi]

Regurgitated topic, but this hilarious video pretty much sums it all up

 

[kwankapang]

I do not think MSG syndrome will happen to anyone. I work in a restaurant for in Asia and have not encountered any customers has MSG syndrome. Perhaps the Asian people get use it.

On the side note, most of the Chinese cuisines can be prepared without MSG. In fact, MSG is a recent discovery (as compare to the long history of Chinese cuisine). Authentic Chinese cuisine sdo not really need MSG.

[Tri2Cook]

Just bought (for home use) a new 900 gram container of MSG today. I have no problems related to eating it and haven't seen problems among people who eat things I use it in. I'm not claiming that means it's a farce that people react to it, just that it doesn't apply to my situation regardless. I use it in some of my sausage recipes (I also use phosphates and sodium erythorbate in some applications... so the "ingredients I can't pronounce" crowd may not approve) and pretty much anywhere I want an extra savory kick.

[takadi]

I think a double blind study showed that there's no adverse reaction to MSG so what you are feeling either could be a placebo effect or just the result of consuming too much sodium. I've noticed food heavy in MSG doesn't taste as salty, or doesn't have the same sharpness of salt, so it's easy to overconsume.

Let's just say that MSG sensitivity does exist though. I think the best theory, one that I presented here a while back, is that it is the refinement of MSG that causes the reaction rather than the glutamate compound itself.  Like how refined sugars cause high spikes in blood sugar than carbohydrates high in fiber or resistant starch that causes slower release in sugar. Maybe not the same chemically but an apt metaphor I think. Perhaps consuming glutamates in foods rich in other compounds, proteins, amino acids has some kind of synergistic effect that affects absorption somehow

 

EDIT

 

Here's an article I found that expresses that theory perfectly

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/its-the-umami-stupid-why-the-truth-about-msg-is-so-easy-to-swallow-180947626/?no-ist

 

"“The short answer is that there is no difference: glutamate is glutamate is glutamate,” says Richard Amasino, professor of biochemistry at University of Wisconsin-Madison. “It would be identical unless different things created a different rate of uptake.”

Glutamtes that occur naturally in food come intertwined with different chemicals or fiber, which the body is naturally inclined to regulate, explains Amy Cheng Vollmer, professor of biology at Swarthmore College. MSG, however, comes without the natural components of food that help the body regulate glutamic levels. It’s like taking an iron supplement versus obtaining iron from spinach or red meat: the iron supplement creates an expressway between the iron and your bloodstream that you wouldn’t find in natural iron sources."

Edited April 5, 2015 by takadi (log)

[Duvel]

Note: This post and the next ten have been split from the Lunch 2021 discussion, to maintain topic focus.

 

13 hours ago, KennethT said:

maybe someone can help me diagnose the issue?

My Special Guess ...

 

(plus some fatty pork instead of the chicken and - at least for me - some extra sprinkling of roasted hua jiao on the final dish...)

[KennethT]

50 minutes ago, Duvel said:

My Special Guess ...

 

(plus some fatty pork instead of the chicken and - at least for me - some extra sprinkling of roasted hua jiao on the final dish...)

I do have a large bag (although it keeps getting smaller) of MSG, and I was thinking about it, but the final dish is already extremely savory - I feel like it needs some lift.  I have also considered the fact that the ground chicken rather than pork or beef could be the culprit...  I told my wife, for the sake of science, that we needed to try it with ground pork from Chinatown (who will make it from fatty pork rather than lean pork like my local supermarket) instead the chicken one time... for research purposes of course...

[Duvel]

11 minutes ago, KennethT said:

I told my wife, for the sake of science, that we needed to try it with ground pork from Chinatown (who will make it from fatty pork rather than lean pork like my local supermarket) instead the chicken one time... for research purposes of course...

For me the use of animal fats certainly “elevates” certain dishes. Potatoes & duck/chicken fat, latkes & lard, ... 

 

But especially for Chinese food I consider a pinch of MSG required. Many years ago I studied in Dublin and had a Chinese girl in my shared apartment, who made fried rice every other day. It contained always just morsels of other things but was really good - she never wanted to share why. Until I discovered her bag of MSG in an old teabox ...

[Margaret Pilgrim]

7 minutes ago, Duvel said:

For me the use of animal fats certainly “elevates” certain dishes. Potatoes & duck/chicken fat, latkes & lard, ... 

 

But especially for Chinese food I consider a pinch of MSG required. Many years ago I studied in Dublin and had a Chinese girl in my shared apartment, who made fried rice every other day. It contained always just morsels of other things but was really good - she never wanted to share why. Until I discovered her bag of MSG in an old teabox ...

AFAIK, MSG's bad rap has been disproved by medical science.   Like most seasonings, discretion is the game.  

[Duvel]

7 minutes ago, Margaret Pilgrim said:

AFAIK, MSG's bad rap has been disproved by medical science.   Like most seasonings, discretion is the game.  

Very true. And I have no hesitation to use MSG where it makes sense. But then again, I also use ethanol and other dangerous chemicals on a regular basis ...

[Katie Meadow]

I've never been able to detect the difference in taste when MSG is added to restaurant food. About twenty minutes later I know for sure one way or the other. No mistaking the symptoms for me. I don't eat a lot of Chinese restaurant food, partly because of that and partly because most of it doesn't seem that great. I make some dishes at home, admittedly a limited repertoire, and never wish they had more flavor. 

 

The fact that some people are sensitive to MSG and others not never seems to figure into "scientific" judgments. All I know is that if it isn't the MSG it is something in the food that doesn't like me. My husband doesn't react to it, or perhaps he's just generally spacey.

[Duvel]

13 minutes ago, Katie Meadow said:

I've never been able to detect the difference in taste when MSG is added to restaurant food. About twenty minutes later I know for sure one way or the other. No mistaking the symptoms for me. I don't eat a lot of Chinese restaurant food, partly because of that and partly because most of it doesn't seem that great. I make some dishes at home, admittedly a limited repertoire, and never wish they had more flavor. 

 

The fact that some people are sensitive to MSG and others not never seems to figure into "scientific" judgments. All I know is that if it isn't the MSG it is something in the food that doesn't like me. My husband doesn't react to it, or perhaps he's just generally spacey.

I am certainly not qualified to judge the effects of MSG on every individual. When it comes to taste it does make a difference, at least to me. If you want to try, I suggest the following experiment: Make a mixture of 60% salt, 20% sugar and 20% MSG and use this to flavor simple egg dishes instead of using 100% salt. Scrambled eggs, omelette, tortilla de patatas ... The outcome will be surprising(ly good) and I would be surprised if you feel any ill effect from the MSG. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Duvel (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

2 hours ago, Katie Meadow said:

I've never been able to detect the difference in taste when MSG is added to restaurant food. About twenty minutes later I know for sure one way or the other. No mistaking the symptoms for me. I don't eat a lot of Chinese restaurant food, partly because of that and partly because most of it doesn't seem that great. I make some dishes at home, admittedly a limited repertoire, and never wish they had more flavor. 

 

The fact that some people are sensitive to MSG and others not never seems to figure into "scientific" judgments. All I know is that if it isn't the MSG it is something in the food that doesn't like me. My husband doesn't react to it, or perhaps he's just generally spacey.

Katie, while in no way disregarding your experiences, there is some question that perhaps, and that's a very large perhaps, it is excess salt via soy sauce or other condiment, that can cause these symptoms.    Most important is that you have identified what you think is causing your distress and are avoiding it.

[Bernie]

7 hours ago, Margaret Pilgrim said:

AFAIK, MSG's bad rap has been disproved by medical science.   Like most seasonings, discretion is the game.  

Here you go

https://news.colgate.edu/magazine/2019/02/06/the-strange-case-of-dr-ho-man-kwok/

[JoNorvelleWalker]

2 hours ago, Margaret Pilgrim said:

Katie, while in no way disregarding your experiences, there is some question that perhaps, and that's a very large perhaps, it is excess salt via soy sauce or other condiment, that can cause these symptoms.    Most important is that you have identified what you think is causing your distress and are avoiding it.

 

Not @Katie Meadow but excess MSG affects me similarly.  It is hellish.  My grandson has the same reaction.  To the extent he won't eat in some restaurants.  Other family members don't share this problem.  I have no adverse effect to a little MSG.

 

For what it's worth few people eat more salt than I do.  (As at the moment when the peanuts are gone and there is still salt at the bottom of the bowl.)

 

[Katie Meadow]

The only experiences I've had with MSG have been Chinese restaurants. Since I don't have any Chinese restaurants where I adore the food, it's very rare that I have to confront the problem. Especially these days, of course. My own wontons, pot stickers, stir-fry dishes and so on make me happy. In fact I never order dumplings at restaurants, because mine are better.

 

I understand that urge toward scientific experiments as @Duvelsuggests, but that's just not me. As for salt, I've never gotten dizzy from it, and I've had plenty of food that I thought was way too salty. Ask me if I care about all the studies debunking the effects of MSG! 

[liuzhou]

3 hours ago, Katie Meadow said:

The only experiences I've had with MSG have been Chinese restaurants.

 

Are you sure? It is in most convenience foods, snacks etc - usually listed as flavor enhancer. Also naturally in cheese, tomato, mushrooms and a host of other foods.

Edited January 3, 2021 by liuzhou (log)

[Anna N]

1 hour ago, liuzhou said:

 

Are you sure? It is in most convenience foods, snacks etc - usually listed as flavor enhancer. Also naturally in cheese, tomato, mushrooms and a host of other foods.

It is not an argument likely to be won by appealing to science or logic. If one believes that MSG causes a physiological reaction, I am inclined to allow one to persist in that belief. The older I get the more I understand what Milton knew so many centuries ago: 

 

“The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven..”

 

Belief trumps logic. 

 

It would be interesting though to see MSG listed by percentage on food stuffs just as sodium content is currently listed. We might all have our eyes opened. 

[liuzhou]

4 minutes ago, Anna N said:

It would be interesting though to see MSG listed by percentage on food stuffs just as sodium content is currently listed.

 

It is in some places.

[Anna N]

Just now, liuzhou said:

 

It is in some places.

Interesting. I don’t believe I have ever seen it listed as an ingredient by percentage. That could be because I don’t spend much time reading lists of ingredients!

[liuzhou]

2 minutes ago, Anna N said:

Interesting. I don’t believe I have ever seen it listed as an ingredient by percentage. That could be because I don’t spend much time reading lists of ingredients!

 

Maybe not in Canada, but what do I know about Canadian labelling regulations?

[Anna N]

6 minutes ago, liuzhou said:

 

Maybe not in Canada, but what do I know about Canadian labelling regulations?

Likely much more than I know!

[Darienne]

I've never thought of myself as allergic or even sensitive to MSG, but I do recall vividly one episode eating Hot and Sour soup in a Chinese restaurant in Toronto, being so overcome by some ingredient in the soup that I stood outside in the pouring rain while my head felt as if a band of metal were trying to crush it.