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e_monster

Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 8)

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rotuts   

what does your rotisserie look like? a few pics? if the meat is rotating and your Blow Torch is at just the right distance, its sort of like that that greek gyros thing.

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FeChef   

what does your rotisserie look like? a few pics? if the meat is rotating and your Blow Torch is at just the right distance, its sort of like that that greek gyros thing.

Its a showtime rotisserie that i modified to be controlled by a PID controller. The probe is located at the top toward the front away from the heating element that is located in the rear. It works really good at maintaining low temps between 150-250F. I havent tested it at higher temps since i have another rotisserie just for high temp cooking like chickens and turkeys.

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KennethT   

Is it possible to cook/chill the roast? Cook it to 130 for 12 hours SV, then as quick as possible chill to refrig. temp, then a couple hours in the rotisserie to crust/retherm to an internal temp of 120-125... just a thought

I like the idea of cooking a few days earlier to 130F then quickly chilling in an ice water bath. But would i retherm it back in the sous vide to 125F? or retherm directly in the rottiserie to the target temp of 135F? It seems in that case why not just sous vide to 130F and let it drop 10 degrees before putting it into the rottiserie to climb up to 135F and build a crust.
I was originally thinking to retherm it completely in the rotisserie to a target internal temp of 120-125. I would actually get the rotisserie going on the hot side, rather than keeping it cool, which will help get a nice crust, but remember, you just need to warm up the center, as it's already been cooked to 130. Also, according to MC, the showtime rotisserie is more like an oven than a true rotisserie - because the door keeps in heat... maybe you could keep the door open to keep it cooler around the meat while the one side (rotating) gets continually blasted with the infrared?

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FeChef   

Is it possible to cook/chill the roast? Cook it to 130 for 12 hours SV, then as quick as possible chill to refrig. temp, then a couple hours in the rotisserie to crust/retherm to an internal temp of 120-125... just a thought

I like the idea of cooking a few days earlier to 130F then quickly chilling in an ice water bath. But would i retherm it back in the sous vide to 125F? or retherm directly in the rottiserie to the target temp of 135F? It seems in that case why not just sous vide to 130F and let it drop 10 degrees before putting it into the rottiserie to climb up to 135F and build a crust.
I was originally thinking to retherm it completely in the rotisserie to a target internal temp of 120-125. I would actually get the rotisserie going on the hot side, rather than keeping it cool, which will help get a nice crust, but remember, you just need to warm up the center, as it's already been cooked to 130. Also, according to MC, the showtime rotisserie is more like an oven than a true rotisserie - because the door keeps in heat... maybe you could keep the door open to keep it cooler around the meat while the one side (rotating) gets continually blasted with the infrared?

I think im going to try sous vide to 135F a day in advance then quickly chill. Then like you suggested, retherm it to 125F in the sous vide the morning of and finish it in the rotiserie at high heat untill it develops a nice crust with rotuts suggestion of using the blow torch to help speed the crust development. I just hope im right on the time. Im thinking 15 minutes at high heat in the rotisserie to get a nice crust with little over-cooking. But im open to more suggestions.

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a little blow-torch on the rotisserie wouldnt hurt either!

I do use a blow torch alot but the crust and flavor from a blow torch just doesnt come close to the flavor and crust you get from a rottiserie.

....Oh i see, your saying hit it with the torch while on the rottiserie. Good idea, but my blow torch might kill the heating element and warp the inside of the rottiserie if not careful. It gets rediculously hot!

I have two thoughts: since you have a rotisserie that can cook at low temperature, I would be inclined to do the cooking that way rather than sous-vide. If you blowtorch first then cook at 150-200F, you will get some nice tenderization and a nice crust as well.

Both Heston Blumenthal and Thomas Keller recommend hitting a roast with a blow torch before the cooking starts. It does two things: sterilizes that outside AND jump starts the crust formation. You don't even need to get the meet browned -- you just need to get it 'gray'. I read an article by Harold McGee where he says that he was skeptical that this would work but that he tried it and that it works well. I have done a few roasts where I blowtorched and cooked at about 175F and the crust turned out really nice. I did a tiny bit of touching up with the torch after the final rest.

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KennethT   

First - I agree with e_monster.. if you have a rotisserie that goes down that low, why play with SV at all? It's a lot of trouble to bag a big roast, SV, then chill, then retherm...

If you are dead-set on SV, and like my ideas before - I would like to add that it seems that I'm not coming through clear. I would retherm completely in the rotisserie - not retherm at all SV - but, since the roast is already cooked, you only need to rotisserie so that the inside is warm, proper eating temperature... say 125degF. I'd assume that if you're starting from refrigerator temp, by the time the inside gets to 125F, you should have a decent crust on the outside. Of course, you will get some gradient this way, which is not always a bad thing.

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FeChef   

I wanted to sous vide first to get a more tender end result since the cut is somewhat on the low end side being at best barely legal to be called choice grade. I got it for a good price otherwise i would have took it back to the butcher. That said, i dont know what temp i would rotisserie it to have it done by 1pm for easter. I dont believe i would get a tender final product if i completely cooked it in the rotisserie for under 7 hours if i started it at 6am. I would have to start it the night before at the latest 12 at night.


Edited by FeChef (log)

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rotuts   

if this cut is 'bone on' and you have not started yet, make sure you remove the thin tough membrane on the bone side of the meat: if its there: this is the parietal plura:

you could google it but it might gross you out! there is a similar membrane in the abdominal cavity and those who do pork ribs know to remove this carefully as is semi- impermeable and very tough!

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Judy   

I am new to sous vide, but I would like to draw your attention to a slow oven roasting method that Cooks Illustrated published a few years ago. I have used it several times and the meat is pink to the edges with a nice crust. The result is quite delicious. Can it be adapted to what you're trying to do?

Here's their method:

SLOW-ROASTED BEEF

Published January 1, 2008. From Cook's Illustrated.

Serves 6 to 8.

WHY THIS RECIPE WORKS:

For an inexpensive slow-roasted beef recipe, we transformed a bargain cut into a tender, juicy roast by salting the meat a full 24 hours before roasting and then cooking it at a very low temperature, which allowed the meat's enzymes to act as natural tenderizers, breaking down its tough connective tissue. We don't recommend cooking this roast past medium. Open the oven door as little as possible and remove the roast from the oven while taking its temperature. If the roast has not reached the desired temperature in the time specified in step 3, heat the oven to 225 degrees for 5 minutes, shut it off, and continue to cook the roast to the desired temperature. For a smaller (2 1/2- to 3 1/2-pound) roast, reduce the

amount of kosher salt to 3 teaspoons (1 1/2 teaspoons table salt) and black pepper to 1 1/2 teaspoons. For a 4 1/2- to 6-pound roast, cut in half crosswise before cooking to create 2 smaller roasts. Slice the roast as thinly as possible and serve with Horseradish Cream Sauce (see related recipe), if desired.

INGREDIENTS

boneless eye-round roast (3 1/2 to 4 1/2 pounds) (see note)

teaspoons kosher salt or 2 teaspoons table salt

teaspoons vegetable oil plus 1 tablespoon teaspoons ground black pepper

INSTRUCTIONS

1. Sprinkle all sides of roast evenly with salt.Wrap with plastic wrap and refrigerate 18 to 24 hours.

2. Adjust oven rack to middle position and heat oven to 225 degrees. Pat roast dry with paper towels; rub with 2 teaspoons oil and

sprinkle all sides evenly with pepper. Heat remaining tablespoon oil in 12-inch skillet over medium-high heat until starting to smoke.

Sear roast until browned on all sides, 3 to 4 minutes per side. Transfer roast to wire rack set in rimmed baking sheet. Roast until meatprobe

thermometer or instant-read thermometer inserted into center of roast registers 115 degrees for medium-rare, 1 1/4 to 1 3/4

hours, or 125 degrees for medium, 1 3/4 to 2 1/4 hours.

3. Turn oven off; leave roast in oven, without opening door, until meat-probe thermometer or instant-read thermometer inserted into

center of roast registers 130 degrees for medium-rare or 140 degrees for medium, 30 to 50 minutes longer. Transfer roast to carving

board and let rest 15 minutes. Slice meat crosswise as thinly as possible and serve.

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cssmd27   

Apologies in advance if this has been extensively discussed. I searched, but couldn't really find much of a discussion.

I was wondering what opinions everyone had about the refrigerator shelf life of vegetables after a full sous vide cook (unopened, in bags)? I'm mainly talking about root vegetables done at 185 for 1-2 hours, then refrigerated. I've read some people claiming about a week, but I've had mine be just fine at a month or more. Not sure what the end point would be anyway. I'm assuming that the vegetables should be bacteria free after a relatively long, hot cook. Maybe textural changes?

Anyway, I was hoping for some kind of official guidance on refrigerator shelf life of sous vide cooked vegetables and perhaps some reasoning behind the guidance.

Thanks!

Chris

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rotuts   

this has been studied. as long as you do a very quick icing in water with a lot of ice they will keep in a very cold refig. for 30 to 60 days.



PedroG is an expert at this. PM him!


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PedroG   

See Douglas Baldwin's Guide:

after rapid chilling, the food must either be frozen or held at

  • below 36.5°F (2.5°C) for up to 90 days,
  • below 38°F (3.3°C) for less than 31 days,
  • below 41°F (5°C) for less than 10 days, or
  • below 44.5°F (7°C) for less than 5 days

Find out where in your refrigerator the coldest area is and try to regulate it down to 1-2°C, using a calibrated reference thermometer.

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FeChef   

So Im definetly going to sous vide for 12 hours @ 135F and chill in the fridge till easter morning. If i rotisserie at high heat from fridge temp (35-38F) How long should it take to get the center up to 125F? I think the rotisserie gets between 375-400F and the rib roast will be deboned and is roughly 5-6 inches thick and without the bone im guessing 4-5 inches.

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rotuts   

I fear that at the 400 rotisserie temp to get the inner meat temp to 125 will give you a pretty thick bit of "well done" outer rim.

this sounds a lot like conventional roasting, which you had hoped to avoid.

my 2 cents.

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FeChef   

I fear that at the 400 rotisserie temp to get the inner meat temp to 125 will give you a pretty thick bit of "well done" outer rim.

this sounds a lot like conventional roasting, which you had hoped to avoid.

my 2 cents.

Well, Im not sure what you mean. If your saying 400 is too high, I can use the PID controlled one i have for a lower temp. If your saying 400 is too low to get a crust before the center reaches 125F then i could as you mentioned before, use the blow torch to assist in crust development. Im really not sure where you were going with this post. I have in the past done a rib roast sous vide, then straight to a regular oven for i believe 20 minutes @450F and there was a decent crust with very little "grey outer rim". But It just didnt have that nice rotisserie flavored crust that i want.

Easter is comming up fast and the rib roast has been fully thawed and i need to have a plan in place asap so any help on what would be the best approach going sous vide first, then rotisserie would be greatly appreciated.

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rotuts   

I just meant that from refrig temp to internal temp 125 with an external heat source of 400 sounds like a conventional roasting situation, with a fairly thick med-well cap gradient to get that internal temp up.

didnt mean to confuse. do you have the space to do the SV right up to the roasting on the rotisserie which is what you seem to have done in the past successfully moving the warm roast directly from the SV to the oven.

Id still have a blow torch ready for the touch ups while rotating.

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I fear that at the 400 rotisserie temp to get the inner meat temp to 125 will give you a pretty thick bit of "well done" outer rim.

this sounds a lot like conventional roasting, which you had hoped to avoid.

my 2 cents.

Well, Im not sure what you mean. If your saying 400 is too high, I can use the PID controlled one i have for a lower temp. If your saying 400 is too low to get a crust before the center reaches 125F then i could as you mentioned before, use the blow torch to assist in crust development. Im really not sure where you were going with this post. I have in the past done a rib roast sous vide, then straight to a regular oven for i believe 20 minutes @450F and there was a decent crust with very little "grey outer rim". But It just didnt have that nice rotisserie flavored crust that i want.

Easter is comming up fast and the rib roast has been fully thawed and i need to have a plan in place asap so any help on what would be the best approach going sous vide first, then rotisserie would be greatly appreciated.

What he is telling you is that you take your pre-cooked roast from the refrigerator and put it in a 450F oven that by the time the center is 125F, you will have a lot of the roast that has been cooked well above that. If you use a hot oven to heat the meat, you will end up with something that is more well-done than medium rare. The scenario you describe will be very different from cooking at 130F sous-vide and then sticking it in an oven for a brief time to get a crust.

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FeChef   

Well im getting alot of conflicting ideas on how to approach this and get a nice crust using a rotisserie. So what is it? Should i sous vide the night before and go straight into the rotisserie @400F for 20 min till i get a nice crust? Or should i sous vide a day earlier and chill, then retherm in rotisserie to 125F?

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paulpegg   

Well im getting alot of conflicting ideas on how to approach this and get a nice crust using a rotisserie. So what is it? Should i sous vide the night before and go straight into the rotisserie @400F for 20 min till i get a nice crust? Or should i sous vide a day earlier and chill, then retherm in rotisserie to 125F?

I would sous vide overnight and then go directly into the rotis as hot as you can get it for whatever time it takes to get the crust you want. 15-20 minutes should do the trick. Have the torch handy to touch up any areas that don't get as crusty as you want.

When I do momofuku short ribs I sous vide them for 48 hours and then dry them off and deep fry them for 2 or 3 minutes. They get a fantastic dark brown crust and are perfectly medium rare all the way through.

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FeChef   

Well im getting alot of conflicting ideas on how to approach this and get a nice crust using a rotisserie. So what is it? Should i sous vide the night before and go straight into the rotisserie @400F for 20 min till i get a nice crust? Or should i sous vide a day earlier and chill, then retherm in rotisserie to 125F?

I would sous vide overnight and then go directly into the rotis as hot as you can get it for whatever time it takes to get the crust you want. 15-20 minutes should do the trick. Have the torch handy to touch up any areas that don't get as crusty as you want.

When I do momofuku short ribs I sous vide them for 48 hours and then dry them off and deep fry them for 2 or 3 minutes. They get a fantastic dark brown crust and are perfectly medium rare all the way through.

I think thats the route im leaning toward. I liked the idea of having it ready in advance, but if bringing it back to serving temp is going to be "iffy" then I will just pull it out of the sous vide at the target temp and quickly sear it on the rotisserie for 15-30 and hope for the best. Atleast i know its where it needs to be. Im thinking also that there will be a slight drop in temp from going from bag to spit so may give me some extra time on the searing.

BTW, I had very bad results doing short ribs,always come out dry and mushy sawdust texture, even at 132F. But chuck roasts @ 24 hours always come out great.

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rotuts   

Yar. thats it then: SV to the time you blast with the Roti. use a blowtorch as you do it if you have the time, as soon as you get the 'crust' you like just turn the Roti off and lightly cover to conserve the heat.

done

love to see a set of pics!

BTW make sure your roast is very dry before you put it on the Roti. that just creates steam. save what little 'jus' you have for maybe basting with a little butter added to the Jus for the final crust.

I bet its going to be the 'best' many people would have ever had!

as you suggested the Roti adds a 'flavor' the hot oven does not? thats very interesting: are you talking about the aroma 'Sent from Heaven' of "Burnt Meat?" and "burt Fat" ???

as your meat is 'done' if you have the time use the torch in addition. it adds 'drama' etc. but use the torch very very carefully : "burnt" is not Malliard. and the crust you are looking for as long as its not burnt is really not so deep into the meat. 'burnt fat' is somthing else. its in the Bible after all!

check your smoke detectors! take those pesky batteries out!

you and your guests are in for a fine treat!


Edited by rotuts (log)

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FeChef   

Rotuts, Im most likely not going to have pics. When I have 10+ people around, I dont make a habit of taking pictures of food. Especially if im not sure how "good" something will turn out. If you knew my family you would understand. As for the roast, I am going to pre sear with the blow torch before sous vide to add color, and kill any bacteria that could be present. I personally feel it adds flavor aswell. I am going to pat dry with paper towels and use a rub before adding to the rotisserie. Its basicly a light coat of mayo (canola) and tones signature beef seasoning. It adds great flavor to the crust. And ive already removed the battery from the kitchen smoke detector long ago.

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Mayo? Wow. That's really interesting. New to me, even. Why mayo and not just straight oil (canola or otherwise)?

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FeChef   

My grandmother always used mayo on her turkeys and told me it helped in browning the skin and also helped spices stick better then just oil. I always use it on my turkeys,chickens, and beef roasts. You can use it on briskets instead of mustard too.

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jmasur   

I wanted to sous vide first to get a more tender end result since the cut is somewhat on the low end side being at best barely legal to be called choice grade. I got it for a good price otherwise i would have took it back to the butcher. That said, i dont know what temp i would rotisserie it to have it done by 1pm for easter. I dont believe i would get a tender final product if i completely cooked it in the rotisserie for under 7 hours if i started it at 6am. I would have to start it the night before at the latest 12 at night.

This may have been said already, but cooking to 125, then chilling, then putting it on the rotisserie, will not be a positive difference over rotisserie alone. In both situations, you will be starting from roughly the same temp, so it will take roughly the same time to heat to serving temp. But if you've sous vided first, everything will be concomitantly more done.

I would sv, then go straight from water bath to rotisserie at high temp long enough before serving to get your crust. 400 would probably work, but I'm a fan of hitting sv meats with as high a temp as I can go to get the crust -- 700+ on my propane grill, or 1000+ on my CookAir.

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