Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create an account.

e_monster

Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 8)

Recommended Posts

Has anyone cooked beef shanks? I am wondering if I should treat them like short ribs (56C for 48 hours).

Ideas?

[Moderator note: The original Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment topic became too large for our servers to handle efficiently, so we've divided it up; the preceding part of this discussion is here: Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 7)]


Edited by Mjx Moderator note added. (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Treated the same as most tough cuts I do 73c for 48 hours produced a tender awesome boned beef shank. Picture was from my first attempt, I've since adjusted for just a more of a medium rare.

4795887864_61099fc342_z.jpg

So my Sous vide magic is off by a crazy 15c. I am not the most tech savvy guy, any of you SVM guys know how to fix?


Edited by ScottyBoy (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

. . . . .

So my Sous vide magic is off by a crazy 15c. I am not the most tech savvy guy, any of you SVM guys know how to fix?

Sounds like a sensor failure, so try another sensor. Some sensors survive submersion for years, a few fail after some time, as moisture creeping into the mantle-tube causes a short-circuit. Sensors may last longer if you take them out of the water when not in use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Damn, it came with two and I figured I would try that but can't find the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

. . . . .

So my Sous vide magic is off by a crazy 15c. I am not the most tech savvy guy, any of you SVM guys know how to fix?

Sounds like a sensor failure, so try another sensor. Some sensors survive submersion for years, a few fail after some time, as moisture creeping into the mantle-tube causes a short-circuit. Sensors may last longer if you take them out of the water when not in use.

Sensor is the most likely failure. (And the cheapest part to replace.)

Note that different vintages of SVM take different probes. Its VERY important to get the right one!

If in ANY doubt, email them before ordering a spare.

You should be able to do a "sanity check" on your kit by dialling in blood heat, say 100F or 37C, and once the bath is stable, test it with a clinical thermometer. You'd expect the bath to be somewhere within range ... :huh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Treated the same as most tough cuts I do 73c for 48 hours produced a tender awesome boned beef shank. Picture was from my first attempt, I've since adjusted for just a more of a medium rare.

Retarding the ones you made the adjustment to, did you cook them at 73C? I have some incredibly meaty shanks in my freezer from a grass-fed cow I just bought and I sure would love to use them for something other than soup (which is the ONLY thing I know to do with beef shanks). How did you prepare/serve them? Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh yes yes, I meant that 73c is my final new way of doing them. I bone them out and reserve the bones for stock and heavily salt before sealing. Recently I've taken to charring them on the grill afterwards with veggies and making a simple chimichurri to pour over after carving.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Treated the same as most tough cuts I do 73c for 48 hours produced a tender awesome boned beef shank. Picture was from my first attempt, I've since adjusted for just a more of a medium rare.

So my Sous vide magic is off by a crazy 15c. I am not the most tech savvy guy, any of you SVM guys know how to fix?

Is that 73C minuse 15C to adjust for the bad sensor or is that actually 73C?

73C (163.4F) seems pretty far from medium let alone medium rare (to me 56C is already moving from medium rare towards medium).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I'm losing my mind from the last couple posts... Ugh, yea all the temps I've been writing down are adjusted for my broken sensor, 53c is the true temp. Thanks for catching me in my temporary madness :wacko:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Slow cookers ("crockpots") are available fairly cheaply. But they are far from ideal.

Generally a bit small and shallow. A deeper bath, allowing the bags to sit vertically, is a better choice.

One advantage that crockpots do have is that their heaters are quite weak. The low wattage means that it is possible to switch them with the relay built into some 'temperature controllers' without frying the relay.

However, relay control via a 'dumb' controller isn't going to give great control.

Better to get a PID controller with autotune and SSR-controlling output, an SSR (Solid State Relay) to do the switching safely and without any fuss (and as frequently as you care to dial in - mine is 'on' for a variable proportion of a 2 second cycle), and ideally your PID will have the option of using a more accurate "PT100" probe, so that's the type you'd choose (do make sure its "fully immersible" - works under water!)

For example, if you went to Auber, you'd likely end up with less cost* than the $90/95, dumber, less accurate, less stable (but simpler) controller suggested by the Gizmodo author. And you'd be able to switch more powerful heaters ... Or to avoid the assembly, go up from Gizmodo's $90/95 to $139 and get the $139 ready-built sous vide controller

* $45 for the PID, $26 for the SSR & heat sink, $16 for the PT100 probe, making $87 total

While the Gizmodo rig could work, you could do much better, either with better components for the same sort of price, or for the DIY-averse, even ready-made and in a nice case for not much more money.


Edited by dougal (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some more results from the lab.

Veal cheek again at 135F for 24 hours. Good texture but still a fair amount of Callogen.

Next test at 135 F for 36 hours and 48 hours.

Just got the book Sous Vide from Joan Roca and Salvador Brugués.

Cannot wait to explore the book over the weekend.

I will keep you posted on the next results

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for doing the tests, looking forward to the results. I take it the meat is all from the same source?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes all the Veal Cheek are all from the same farm.

Now that I start looking at the book they suggest that( Veal Cheek) should be done at 68 Celcius for 18 hours... There we go, another test in the pipeline.

Stay tune.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dan,

thanks for doing all the tests!

Trying 68°C will be a valuable service to the community to verify the theoretical expectation that above 60°C there should be no collagenase activity and below 70°C there should be poor/slow collagen melting. I never did something of which I expected a poor outcome. Thanks again!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dan,

thanks for doing all the tests!

Trying 68°C will be a valuable service to the community to verify the theoretical expectation that above 60°C there should be no collagenase activity and below 70°C there should be poor/slow collagen melting. I never did something of which I expected a poor outcome. Thanks again!

The situation is nowhere near that clear.

First, there are many enzymes that affect tenderness. Some of those enzymes denature (and thus stop working) at various temperatures between 40C/104F and 70C/158F. However there do not seem to be any sharp cut offs.

Degrading collagen by enzymes is one of things that occurs, but the primary collagen effect is due to heat and water alone. Collagen does not "melt" in the usual meaning of the term. Instead it undergoes a process which has many names (hydrolysis, denaturation, gelatinization...) when heated with water, which converts it into gelatin.

This process starts at very low temperatures. Exactly how low is a subject of a lot of debate in the scientific literature. It likely starts just above normal animal body temperature, but the rate is very low. Most chemical reaction rates vary exponentially with temperature, so as the temperature gets low the rate becomes so slow that you must be very patient.

Many food science books make ridiculously wrong statements, saying that collagen does not undergo hydrolysis below 60C/140F. That can trivially be shown to be false by sous vide cooking at 55C/130F. You need to do it for a long time (24 to 72 hours), but it surely works, as people on this threat all know.

The 60C/140F number comes from a 1971 scientific paper, which just wasn't patient enough at the low end of the temperature scale. More recent work on collagen has shown that the effect starts at 50C/122F but likely goes even below that (but at a very slow rate).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Nathanm.The statement that the calogen is not reacting or very little over 70 C is a myth as I did several experiment on Beef and Pork on temperature ranging from 74 c to 82 C and their was tons of Collagen reaction.

The best meat texture that I had so far are actually on Pork cheek for 12 Hours at 74 Celcius. This is why I might actually like the 68 C for 18 hours on Veal. We shall see

Ultimately converting all the calongen into gelatin might NOT be the Ideal meat texture and taste that someone is looking for. Personal preferences are hard to judge and consequently I think that part of the difficulty with sous vide is that their is so many variable to play with and everyone has it s own opinion on how they like their meat not only from a doness perspective but taste, texture etc...

I so far find that if I convert the most possible Calogen into gelatin in Cheek, the meat is very tender but also stringy and loose. Braising in a pressure cooker would actually give me the same results in a much faster time with similar meat texture. This is why experimenting is so much fun, as I am looking for the same tenderness of braising with a completely different texture and Doneness

As I am using sous vide: I am in constant search of a texture and taste that I could not duplicate any other way.

Thanks for sharing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that the key to sous vide is achieving things not possible other ways. Pressure cooking is indeed faster if you don't mind what it does to the meat (grayness etc). Once you go to 70C or above that is pretty much a moot point so pressure cooking is a viable alternative.

Also, there is no one right answer. Short ribs can be good over a wide range of temps and times - you get VERY different results, but depending on what you are looking for it, any of them could be "ideal".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Treated the same as most tough cuts I do 73c for 48 hours produced a tender awesome boned beef shank. Picture was from my first attempt, I've since adjusted for just a more of a medium rare.

So my Sous vide magic is off by a crazy 15c. I am not the most tech savvy guy, any of you SVM guys know how to fix?

I'd love to try this soon. I'm just wondering if there are any botulism concerns with cooking meat this long at a low temp? And would this 53c/48hr work for 1.5" pieces of beef shank?

Thanks =)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. I guess the "53°C" was a typo as 73°C minus the 15°C error yields 58°C.

2. 53°C/127.5°F is the growth limit of Clostridium perfringens, see FOOD PATHOGEN CONTROL DATA SUMMARY . 54.4°C/130°F is the limit for safe long-time cooking. See also FOOD SAFETY HAZARDS AND CONTROLS FOR THE HOME FOOD PREPARER .

3. Cooking at the minimal safe temperature requires reliable thermometer accuracy, see Thermometer calibration.

Treated the same as most tough cuts I do 73c for 48 hours produced a tender awesome boned beef shank. Picture was from my first attempt, I've since adjusted for just a more of a medium rare.

So my Sous vide magic is off by a crazy 15c. I am not the most tech savvy guy, any of you SVM guys know how to fix?

I'd love to try this soon. I'm just wondering if there are any botulism concerns with cooking meat this long at a low temp? And would this 53c/48hr work for 1.5" pieces of beef shank?

Thanks =)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking of shanks, just put up four lamb shanks at 70C for 48h. Used a rub with ras al hanout and Aleppo pepper, and added a mixture of chicken fat and butter that we had used for dipping artichokes earlier in the evening. Will report back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very happy with the shanks, though I think I'll try 68C next time: the meat was just starting toward a drier texture, making me wonder what a tick or two lower would do. It was tender as the dickens, though...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very happy with the shanks, though I think I'll try 68C next time: the meat was just starting toward a drier texture, making me wonder what a tick or two lower would do. It was tender as the dickens, though...

I take it from your description that the collagen softened. Seems this temperature/time and collagen conversion thing gets me more and more confused the more I read and experiment. Roll on Nathan's book I say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The collagen definitely softened: the only remaining sinews were at the very base of the shank where the muscles become slender and the tendon connects.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Similar Content

    • By Daily Gullet Staff
      By John Sconzo

      The Daily Gullet is proud to present this, the first in a multi-part, front-row report on the recent "Spain and the World Table" conference. Watch for subsequent installments in this topic.

      In his introduction of Ferran Adria, Thomas Keller -- perhaps the most celebrated American chef ever -- described four elements that go into making a great chef. The chef must be aware. Once aware of one’s culinary and other surroundings that chef can then be inspired, which leads to the ability to interpret those surroundings. But a great chef does not stop there. Instead, the great chef continues to evolve. Ferran Adria, perhaps more than any other chef who has ever lived, is the embodiment of those four elements.

      The moment that Ferran Adria strode towards Thomas Keller on the stage at the CIA/Greystone’s World of Flavors’ “Spain and the World Table” Conference was electric -- as if a giant Van de Graf generator had been turned on. The feeling didn’t subside when Adria took the stage from Keller; it only became more pronounced as the packed crowd rose to its feet, raining applause, admiration and love on the Spanish master. Adria accepted the response with aplomb, and gave it right back to the audience -- and to his fellow Spanish cocineros, who were standing off to the side. He brought each one up to join him on the stage for a rousing thank-you to the conference organizers, sponsors and participants. Once this emotional release subsided, Adria got down to what everyone had been waiting for -- his discussion and demonstration.

      Ferran Adria, with eyes sparkling like the finest cava, began speaking Spanish in a voice as gravelly as the beaches of the Costa Brava, while Conference Chairman Jose Andres translated. The crowd, hushed and straining for every word, moved forward in their seats as Adria explained El Bulli and himself, with a lesson in recent culinary history thrown in. Ferran explained that El Bulli is not a business. While offshoots of El Bulli are operated on a for-profit basis, the restaurant runs without profit as a primary motivation. For example, he said, the greatest difficulty they have is distributing reservations. Given the extraordinary demand and the severely limited supply, he explained that they could simply raise the price of a meal to the point where the supply and demand met. Indeed, the price of a meal at El Bulli is in itself quite reasonable given the stature of the restaurant and well within means of most motivated diners should they be able to get there, and this is how Adria prefers it. He stated that he was not interested in cooking solely for those with the most money. He prefers to work for people with a true interest in exploring the limits of cooking with him. To this end he showed a short film depicting “A Day in the Life . . .” of El Bulli set to the Beatles’ song of the same name. The film showed a couple’s response to the experience.

      Ferran’s voyage into creativity began with a visit to Jacques Maxima at Le Chanticleer Restaurant in Nice, France. He learned from Maxima that to be creative is not to copy. This idea changed his entire approach to cooking -- from making classic cuisine to making his own. Aware of elaborate books of French cuisine, Adria resolved to catalogue his work, the results of which are the richly detailed El Bulli books, published by period. These books, as wonderful as they are, are huge and extremely expensive. During his presentation, Adria announced -- and demonstrated -- that the individual dishes photographed and described in a chronology within each book are all now available online at elbulli.com.

      He finished the philosophical discussion by talking about the general style of haute cuisine that he and others are engaged in. While others have coined the term “molecular gastronomy” to highlight the scientific component of the creativity involved, Adria rejected it, saying that all cooking is molecular: most of his techniques are in fact rather simple and don’t employ radical new technology. Most of the technology that they do use has been around for some time; they have simply adapted it to their own purposes. Nevertheless, he applauds contributions to gastronomy from Harold McGee and other food scientists, and welcomes their collaboration in the kitchen. He has yet to find a term that describes the movement: as of now, he feels that there really is no good name for this style of cooking.

      More than any other single thing, Ferran Adria is known for the use of “foams” in cooking. While he is proud of his achievements with foams, he stressed that while appropriate in some circumstances, the real utility of foams is limited. He bemoans their ubiquity -- and wishes to not be blamed for others’ poor deployment of the concept. In the course of describing this and other techniques, Adria made a point of stating that using them should not be inferred as copying. Techniques and concepts are to be used and shared. He invited everyone to learn and harness whatever they found interesting, and to employ it in to their own pursuits.

      Another set of techniques discussed and demonstrated by the master and his assistant, Rafa Morales from Hacienda Benazuza, included three types of spherification. These included the use of calcium chloride (CaCl) and sodium alginate as well as the converse, and exploration of a new agent, gluconodeltalactone. The original combinations of alginate into CaCl for “caviar” production, and CaCl into alginate for larger “spheres” have chemistry-related limits as to what can be sphericized. In private correspondence, Harold McGee explained to me that Adria described encapsulating a mussel in its own juice. While this would make the dish technically an aspic, unlike conventional aspics it remains a liquid. Adria said that though gluconodeltalactone is very new, and they are just beginning to get a handle on it, he is very excited by it. He also demonstrated a machine for spherification on a larger scale than they had originally been able to do, as well as liquid nitrogen and freeze-drying (lyophilization) techniques. At the conclusion of his demonstration -- and thus the Conference -- the audience once again awarded him a standing ovation.

      While Adria’s appearance was the culmination of the conference, the energy it produced was not just because of his stature in the world of gastronomy -- it was also due to the excitement generated by the conference that preceded it. If there had previously been any doubt, Thomas Keller’s welcome of Adria was a clarion: Spanish cuisine has landed on North American shores and is finding a niche in the North American psyche. Spanish cuisine -- in its multifaceted, delicious entirety -- lives here, too.

      + + + + +

      John M. Sconzo, M.D., aka docsconz, is an anesthesiologist practicing in upstate New York. He grew up in Brooklyn in an Italian-American home, in which food was an important component of family life. It still is. His passions include good food, wine and travel. John's gastronomic interests in upstate northeastern New York involve finding top-notch local producers of ingredients and those who use them well. A dedicated amateur, John has no plans to ditch his current career for one in the food industry. Host, New York.
    • By docsconz
      About Jose Andres
       
      Throughout his career, Jose’s vision and imaginative creations have drawn the praise of the public, the press and his peers. José has received awards and recognition from Food Arts, Bon Appetit, Food & Wine, Saveur, the James Beard Foundation, Wine Spectator, and Wine Advocate. In addition, José has been featured in leading food magazines such as Gourmet as well as the New York Times, the Washington Post, Good Morning America, Fox Sunday Morning News with Chris Wallace, the Food Network, and USA Today.
       
      Widely acknowledged as the premiere Spanish chef cooking in America, José is a developer and Conference Chairman for the upcoming Worlds of Flavor Conference on Spain and the World Table at The Culinary Institute of America at Greystone, November 2 – 5, 2006.
       
      In 1993, Jose moved to Washington, DC, to head the kitchen at Jaleo. From there, Jose took on executive chef responsibilities at neighboring Café Atlantico and later Zaytinya. In July of 2003, Jose embarked on his most adventurous project to date with the opening of the minibar by jose andres at Cafe Atlantico. A six-seat restaurant within a restaurant, minibar by jose andres continues to attract international attention with its innovative tasting menu. In the fall of 2004, Jose opened a third Jaleo and Oyamel, an authentic Mexican small plates restaurant and launched the THINKfoodTANK, an institution devoted to the research and development of ideas about food, all with a view toward their practical applications in the kitchen.
       
      Every week, millions of Spaniards invite Jose into their home where he is the host and producer of “Vamos a cocinar”, a food program on Television Española (TVE), Spanish national television. The program airs in the United States and Latin America on TVE Internacional.
       
      Jose released his first cookbook this year, first published in English, Tapas: A Taste of Spain in America (published in the United States by Clarkson Potter) and shortly after in Spanish, Los fogones de José Andrés (published by Planeta). The book is an homage to Spanish cooking and to tapas, one of Spain's gifts to the world of good cooking.
       
      Jose Andres is passionate, intelligent, dedicated, witty and a fan of FC Barcelona.
       
      Jose has been a member of the eGullet Society since 2004.
       
      More on Jose Andres in the eG Forums:
      Cooking with "Tapas" by Jose Andres
      Vamos a Cocinar - cooking show with Jose Andres
      Jaleo
      José Andrés' Minibar
      Zaytinya
      Oyamel Cocina Mexicana, Crystal City
      Cafe Atlantico
       
      Jose Andres recipes from Tapas in RecipeGullet:
      Potatoes Rioja-Style with Chorizo (Patatas a la Riojana)
      Moorish-Style Chickpea and Spinach Stew
      Squid with Caramelized Onions
    • By gibbs
      With Modernist Cuisine I waited a couple of years and ended up with a copy from the 6th printing run the advantage of this was that all errors picked up in the erratta had been corrected in the print copy.  I am looking to get modernist bread soon and wondered if someone had purchased it recently to check or if someone knew of hand if they have printed any additional corrected runs 
    • By TdeV
      I'm thinking that one isn't supposed to add salt to meat which is about to be sous-vided. I have no idea from whence the idea came, nor whether it's correct.
       
      Also I'm thinking that raw onion is ok in the sous vide bag, but not raw garlic (because it imparts a harsh flavour).
       
      Either of these impressions have value?
    • By Fabio
      Last year I had dinner at Belcanto in Lisbon and one of the dishes featured a "tomato water snow" or "tomato water cloud" (translated from the original Portuguese: "Nuvem/neve de agua de tomate") that I'm trying to replicate without success. Imagine a thick and solid foam of tomato water that immediately liquefies when you put in your mouth. The cloud was atop smoked fish and olive oil was drizzled over it.
       
      I whipped a mixture of tomato water and albumin powder (2 tsp albumin, 2tbsp tomato water) along with a pinch of cream of tartar, getting to the stiff peaks point after some effort. Trying to dehidrate the foam even as low as 150F didn't work; the foam collapsed. I then tried the savory meringue approach with some sugar and salt. The result was indeed a meringue that tasted like tomato but completely different from what I had at Belcanto. What am I missing? I've attached a photo of the dish so you can see what the cloud looks like.
       
      Thanks!
       

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×