Knife sharpening by mail?

[paulraphael]

To the original post, there's one situation where mail-order sharpening makes sense to me. If you have typical european knives, with fat bevel angles and soft steel, then you have blades that can be maintained for a long time on a butcher's steel. Anyone can learn how to do this, and it takes 10 seconds. Your knives will never be really sharp, but they'll be effective, and you can keep going months or years like this. Just send them off for sharpening when they're so beat-up that you can't bang them back into shape on the steel.

 

I'd still strongly recommend sending them to someone good, like Dave Martell. He'll charge more than the commodity services, it will just be an occasional expense.

[Paul Fink]

1 hour ago, paulraphael said:

There are a couple of things to  consider with any kind of automated or semi-automated system. One is that after several regular sharpenings, your blades will have to be thinned. Otherwise, the constant removal of metal is going to change the knife's geometry and the blade will be much too thick behind the edge. You'll have knives with great edges and lousy performance. Thinning requires sharpening higher up on the blade at a very acute angle ... typically lower than 5°. This can be challenging on an edge pro. It's not possible with a machine like the chef's choice.

 

The other challenge is dealing with the blade's geometry at the tip. This requires changing angles both when sharpening and thinning. Gadgets can make this challenging, if they allow it at all

 

Interesting. I think the brand (shape) of the knife could play a role in this.

A couple of points.

First a good sharpener does take any more metal off the blade than sharpening stone.

The chef choice has a third slot that is only used get rid of nicks and to shape the blade.

I believe this would handle your "thinning".

Lastly, I have used my chefs choice for almost twenty years on my French knifes with no thinning needed.

[paulraphael]

8 hours ago, Paul Fink said:

The chef choice has a third slot that is only used get rid of nicks and to shape the blade.

I believe this would handle your "thinning".

Lastly, I have used my chefs choice for almost twenty years on my French knifes with no thinning needed.

 

The coarse slot on the chef's choice machine doesn't thin the blade. It's about removing larger nicks and damage, as you suggested. Thinning is about the broad bevel of the blade well above the cutting edge. The more height you grind off the knife during routine sharpening, the fatter the blade will be behind the edge. 

 

Your knives aren't magical; if you've been sharpening them regularly they need thinning, if they're to retain the performance they had when they were new. This true of all knives and all sharpening methods without exception. If you're unaware of the loss of performance, it's because it's happened gradually.

[Paul Fink]

11 hours ago, paulraphael said:

Your knives aren't magical; if you've been sharpening them regularly they need thinning, if they're to retain the performance they had when they were new. This true of all knives and all sharpening methods without exception. If you're unaware of the loss of performance, it's because it's happened gradually.

 

Well I learned something, then. I never heard of "thinning"  I looked at the profile of my chef's knife. Its been sharpen a lot. And I can see your point. I guess I'll consider trying it. I want to have a look at some new knifes first, just to compare.

[dcarch]

12 hours ago, paulraphael said:

----

Your knives aren't magical; if you've been sharpening them regularly they need thinning,------

 

Unless it is hollow ground, which requires much less need for thinning.

 

The best thing for those who do not like to sharpen knives is to get two knives. Have one sharp one only for slicing and the other duller one for chopping. You will almost never need to sharpen your knives.

 

dcarch

[rotuts]

clearly , knife sharpening touches various nerves , some fairly tender.

 

@lindag  post is a very good one 

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005OL3L/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1  works very well.

 

there are two grits and three grits models.

 

I see the issue two ways :  you still have fine motor skills then you move to waterstones and do it free hand.  Ive done that for years

 

your fine motor skills are fading in the rear view mirror , so you get some sort of jug :  a jig is simply something that takes the guesswork out of

 

a process.  the ceramic jigs above are fairlypriced for the results they will give you , over and over again.  most but not all are designed for

 

thinner Japanese knives , but will work w a wester knife after you grind it down so that the cutting area is ' thin '

[weedy]

is that minosharp gizmo really doing something that a ceramic rod sharpener/steel isn't?

[rotuts]

if you mean an item like this :

 

https://www.amazon.com/Messermeister-Ceramic-Knife-Sharpener-12-Inch/dp/B002YK1RAQ

 

yes. its a jig and the gizmo sets the angle of the knife w the plastic housing around the stone.

 

the rod requires you to set the angle.

 

you do need to remove the metal filings on all sharpening systems  , dog , stone , or jig so that the metal is exposed to the porous stone

 

which can clog w previous metal from your last sharpening session.    that's a different issue and usually easy to do.

 

so :  ask yourself :  would a jig be helpful for me ?   the issues are fine motor control , arthritis etc

 

if not , get a pair of waterstones.  if yes or yes soon , get some sort of jig.

 

 

[rotuts]

google sharpening jigs for knives  ( or kitchen knives ) :

 

http://www.knifeplanet.net/choosing-knife-sharpening-equipment/

 

sharpening jigs for kitchen knives

[boilsover]

1 hour ago, dcarch said:

Unless it is hollow ground, which requires much less need for thinning.

 

Yes...  BUT, when it does need thinning, you'll need to regrind the hollow, which requires a service to match their wheel diameter to the manufacturer's original.  Getting this right is a little like picking a perfect NCAA B-ball bracket...  

[paulraphael]

 

On 1/2/2017 at 0:02 PM, Paul Fink said:

 

Well I learned something, then. I never heard of "thinning"  I looked at the profile of my chef's knife. Its been sharpen a lot. And I can see your point. I guess I'll consider trying it. I want to have a look at some new knifes first, just to compare.

 

You're not alone; thinning hardly ever gets mentioned outside of knife nerd or Japanese cook circles. But it's a simple byproduct of geometry. A simple option if you want to keep using the knife sharpening machine is to get a cheap, coarse stone or a coarse diamond stone to thin on. You might just use it once a year or so, while you maintain the edges on the machine. It will it keep the knives performing like new until they've been sharpened down to nothing.

 

For anyone who still doesn't know what I'm talking about, here's a diagram (drawn by someone else) with exaggerated angles for clarity:

 

[Toliver]

The eGCI had a Knife Sharpening "class" if anyone wants to go over the basics: "Knife Maintenance and Sharpening"

Chad Ward,who headed the eGCI knife sharpening class, eventually wrote a book on the subject: 

"An Edge in the Kitchen: The Ultimate Guide to Kitchen Knives—How to Buy Them, Keep Them Razor Sharp, and Use Them Like a Pro"

[quiet1]

1 hour ago, Toliver said:

The eGCI had a Knife Sharpening "class" if anyone wants to go over the basics: "Knife Maintenance and Sharpening"

Chad Ward,who headed the eGCI knife sharpening class, eventually wrote a book on the subject: 

"An Edge in the Kitchen: The Ultimate Guide to Kitchen Knives—How to Buy Them, Keep Them Razor Sharp, and Use Them Like a Pro"

 

'Now I see it, I'm sure I have a copy of that book somewhere. (A lot of my cookbooks are packed in boxes.  )

[rotuts]

https://www.amazon.com/Edge-Kitchen-Ultimate-Guide-Knives-2014How-ebook/dp/B003V1WU5I/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1483468325&sr=1-1&keywords=chad+ward

 

is a very fine book

 

as it the eG rendition 

[scubadoo97]

Got my signed copy many years ago.  I enjoyed the interaction on the board before the book came out and I was new to sharp knives 

[Porthos]

On 12/27/2016 at 4:58 PM, quiet1 said:

I don't have good luck these days sharpening myself, although I used to do it just with a whetstone. My hands tend to shake due to arthritis which doesn't make for a good edge.

 

One of the beauties of the Edge Pro is that the machine controls the angle.

[Porthos]

2 hours ago, scubadoo97 said:

Got my signed copy many years ago.  I enjoyed the interaction on the board before the book came out and I was new to sharp knives 

 

I found egullet while searching for information on knife sharpening. I found not only Chad's great course, but a community I wanted to become a part of.

 

I can't help regarding the original question as I have never had my knives sharpened by anyone else, even when I didn't know any better and used a Chef Choice machine.

[daveb]

The Chef Choice has a very coarse grit stone as it's grinding wheel.  I recall 60 grit but it may be slightly higher.  That's going to grind a lot of metal - it may leave a sharp enough edge and the little stropping pads may polish out some of the grind marks but no thinning will occur.  A local culinary store I do product demos for uses a Tru Hone  http://www.truhone.com/store/pc/pdf/Knife_Sharpener.pdf  for in-house sharpening.  I use the machine once a year for a day of charity sharpening and sharpen all manner of Kitchenaid, Martha, Calphalon and all the other wally mart brands.  The Tru Hone is a Chef's Choice on steroids and puts a decent edge on all manner of knives but suffers the same disadvantage of not being able to thin.

 

The resultant edge from this type system even has it's own description, "A sharp knife that doesn't cut very well".  And as it happens very gradually it would not be surprising for the user to not notice it.

 

 

[Paul Fink]

1 hour ago, daveb said:

The Chef Choice has a very coarse grit stone as it's grinding wheel.  I recall 60 grit but it may be slightly higher. 

The Tru Hone looks like a hec of sharpener.

But you are misinformed about the  Chef's Choice.  They make a wide range of sharpener but Chef's Choice M120 and

models like it, don't even have a grinding wheel and certainly not a 60 grit grinder.

It does have a coarse slot for to fix nicks or for a new knife to get the initial angle on the knife. I've use it maybe a half a dozen times.

For regular sharpening there are two diamond hones. One 20° and one 15° 

[daveb]

Hi Paul,

 

You may be misinformed about my being misinformed.  Way back in the pre-stone dark ages, I owned what is now the 110 model Chef's Choice.  The first stage I called a wheel, it appears they call it a "conical shaped disk". 

 

Regardless, it grinds hell out of the blade to sharpen it.  Probably goes round and round doing so.   Descriptors like "better than razor sharp", "bite", "durable" are all euphemism s for a coarsely ground edge - and there's nothing wrong with that.  That first stage, granted you may not use it often, 60 - 120 grit.

 

Not trying to be argumentative nor bashing electric sharpeners but will reiterate that such devices do not thin behind the edge and that such thinning is a required part of maintenance to optimize performance.

 

Regards

[paulraphael]

Probably doesn't need saying, but the machines are out if you're particular about your bevel angles, or if your knives are ground asymmetrically (most everything from Japan). You can certainly sharpen an asymmetrically beveled knife in one of these machines, but you'll end up with 50/50 bevels on a knife that's designed otherwise, and you'll have funky edge geometry that won't perform so well.

[boilsover]

16 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

Probably doesn't need saying, but the machines are out if you're particular about your bevel angles, or if your knives are ground asymmetrically (most everything from Japan). You can certainly sharpen an asymmetrically beveled knife in one of these machines, but you'll end up with 50/50 bevels on a knife that's designed otherwise, and you'll have funky edge geometry that won't perform so well.

 

I agree that the machines with little wheels are out for thinning.  But a decent belt machine setup will do the job.

 

I have one of these, from my dad's packing plant:  http://www.kasco.com/hook-eye-sharpeners.html

A Burr King and a glass platen would be better, but you can have a pro do a lot of thinning for $2K.

Edited January 7, 2017 by boilsover (log)

[paulraphael]

10 minutes ago, boilsover said:

 

I agree that the machines with little wheels are out for thinning.  But a decent belt machine setup will do the job.

 

 

I'd practice a LOT on some cheap knives. 

 

But yeah, that's probably what the pro knife sharpeners use for thinning. Even the ones who do all the basic sharpening and finishing on waterstones. Dave Martell said he uses a belt for European knives and for Globals.