Japanese Knives: The Big Topic

&roid · February 11, 2018

I used hocho knife before Christmas to get a misono for a gift. They were very good to deal with, simple ordering process, quick dispatch and (at a cost) very fast delivery. I'd definitely use them again. I thought I'd got away without any customs charges but FedEx sent an invoice through a week or so later.

That's a beautiful looking knife, btw.

daveb · February 12, 2018

I'm a bit of a knife junkie, Yaxell would not be my first choice. Not very familiar with Hocho other offerings.

Cleancut.se (Sweden) and Japanese Natural Stones (Denmark) both serve the Euro market well. I especially like Yoshikane offerings from Cleancut and Itinomonn from JNS. Diminishing returns will vary amongst different people but I find that north of 300USD is getting into aesthetics, 250 - 300 is my sweet spot for buying performance.

Doofa · February 16, 2018

Welcome to the pleasure dome @rich66 crumple this desire of yours I took advice from these boards and shipped in a Watanabe Gyuto. its my finest bit of kit. My other knives are Tojiro which are super for heavy veg stuff. My finer knives are Shun. All very good at what they do. The star though is the Watanabe, shipped direct, signed by the maker and staggeringly sharp. Ive shaved with it. I bought a wooden Sabe to go with it.It's a lot less than you are considering. Damascus doesn't make it sharper just prettier.The Watanabe is folded steel, beautiful pattern and an absolute pleasure to use.Other members to these boards have the same knive. D

scubadoo97 · February 17, 2018

My Jap knives are Tojiro and other non discrip carbon steal varieties

JoNorvelleWalker · February 18, 2018

I'd love another Watanabe but I can't decide what. I seldom butcher octopus.

btbyrd · February 19, 2018

I have a bunch of Japanese knives, but only one with Damascus cladding. It's purely cosmetic. Blade geometry, grind, and steel type are much more important than how the knife looks (unless you like paying money for shiny things just because they shine how you like them).

rich66 · February 19, 2018

Yes, I have now come to realise that it's just a way to 'tart' up a knife!

I think the Yaxell is probably the epitome of this, with it's western handle and 161 layers...

I must try and resist the glamorous looks of it! The true quality knives look like they have been beaten out of old cart springs with a rock!

I read some good postings on ChefKnivesToGoForums about Damascus and how modern Damascus is just a flashy finish etc. Apparently the original Damascus steel has carbon nanotubes in, due to being made with plant matter!

Oddly, I tend to favour an old Sabatier knife over my Globals because I think it takes a better edge...

Thanks for all the advice and I will have a more considered think. It would be great to find somewhere to get hands on with some 'real' Japanese knives...

btbyrd · February 20, 2018

On 2/19/2018 at 2:42 PM, rich66 said:

Oddly, I tend to favour an old Sabatier knife over my Globals because I think it takes a better edge...

The steel Global uses is kind of blah. It's durable and plenty stain/rust resistant, but it's on the softer side and is no fun to sharpen. There are other stainless and semi-stainless alloys on the market now that are much better. They're still good knives, but their desirability isn't what it was 15 or 20 years ago when Japanese kitchen knives first broke onto the global market.

Edited April 1, 2020 by btbyrd (log)

paulraphael · March 5, 2018

On 2/19/2018 at 7:52 PM, btbyrd said:

The steel Global uses is kind of blah. It's durable and plenty stain/rust resistant, but it's on the softer side and is no fun to sharpen. There are other stainless and semi-stainless alloys on the market now that are much better. They're still good knives, but their desirability isn't what it was 15 or 20 years ago when Japanese kitchen knives first broke onto the global market.

Dave Martell at Japanesecharpening.com said that the steel in Globals such a nuissance to sharpen that he doens't do it on Japanese waterstones anymore. He treats them like European knives and sharpens them on a belt sander. He finds the steel unusually gummy and difficult to deburr.

liuzhou · April 5, 2020

Do you know this place in London?

WillH5080 · April 10, 2020

On 4/5/2020 at 4:59 AM, liuzhou said:

Do you know this place in London?

Yep, i know

Eatmywords · April 17, 2020

This is probably the last place I should ask advice on low end knives but here goes. I'm looking for a sashimi (yanagi) knife. I've made sushi/sashimi/rolls maybe 20x in my life and estimate maybe 3 or 4x a year going frwd. I just want a decent starter knife to practice on and sharpen on a whetstone which I've never used before and will need to purchase.

Can I get something semi decent for under $40? I see a few Japanese vendors offering low ends but I imagine some are total shit while others a bit better. Is it ignorant to believe anything Japanese will be better than Chinese or mass produced? And is one Japanese brand a better gamble than another? Many on amazon but I'm eyeing these on jp-knives esp the the phenol resin handle ($32) or the polypropylene at ($27). (- I read that the wood handles are more prone to loosening/falling apart at this price point) https://jp-knives.com/knife-type/sashimi-knife/?price_min=0&price_max=55&sort=featured

Any opinions much appreciated. Thank you!

rotuts · April 17, 2020

the knives you ref'd look interesting and Im sure you will enjoy them

as you are buying by price point , and there is nothing wrong w that

all of these look fine to me , but ive never owned one.

make sure you understand that these all seem to be single bevel and what that means

proba bly all and i didn't look into it , are for right handed users

Id not shy away from a traditional Japanese handle , rather than a western riveted version

it adds to the pleasure of using these knives. it you take care of them , and keep them dry

i doubt you would have a problem w the handle. if you do , just get a little 5 minute epoxy and

refashion the knives

pay some attention to the whetstone you are going to use , possible w two grits .

anyway , I think these are fine

I cant say what the difference is between the 40 $$ and the 25 $$ in the end.

get the one that really speaks to you the most . dont buy the cheapest on the page

just because you want to save money.

leet us know what you decide and how it works out for you.

MokaPot · April 17, 2020

@Eatmywords , I like that you're already actually slicing sashimi and making rolls. IMO, hardly anybody really does that (at home).

I grew up eating homemade sashimi & sushi (maybe about as often as you seem to be doing). My mom made both (at home). She did a decent job and never had a special knife.

btbyrd · April 18, 2020

What other knives do you have? If your budget is around $40 and you already have a knife or two, your money is likely better spent on a stone than on a knife. Frankly, I cannot conceive a non-garbage $40 yanagi; even $150 ones tend to have issues (like having bends and not laying flat on the ura/back of the knife). Sujihikis, which have bevels on both sides, have fewer issues and are better suited for slicing rolls.... but even so, $40 is still quite cheap. (Not inexpensive; cheap.) Yanagi are thick and used to slice fish almost exclusively; sujis are slimmer and are more general purpose slicers. Regardless, in this price range, I'm sorry to say that you're not likely to find much of quality. But you might not really need a specialty sushi knife. The thing that's most important for making rolls is just having a knife that is sharp (and wiped clean between cuts). A sharp chef's knife will do the job just fine. I'd take that $40 and invest it in something like a King 1000/6000 grit combo stone, which is perfect for those just learning to sharpen.

Eatmywords · April 20, 2020

On 4/17/2020 at 12:48 PM, rotuts said:

the knives you ref'd look interesting and Im sure you will enjoy them

as you are buying by price point , and there is nothing wrong w that

all of these look fine to me , but ive never owned one.

make sure you understand that these all seem to be single bevel and what that means

proba bly all and i didn't look into it , are for right handed users

Id not shy away from a traditional Japanese handle , rather than a western riveted version

it adds to the pleasure of using these knives. it you take care of them , and keep them dry

i doubt you would have a problem w the handle. if you do , just get a little 5 minute epoxy and

refashion the knives

pay some attention to the whetstone you are going to use , possible w two grits .

anyway , I think these are fine

I cant say what the difference is between the 40 $$ and the 25 $$ in the end.

get the one that really speaks to you the most . dont buy the cheapest on the page

just because you want to save money.

leet us know what you decide and how it works out for you.

Hi Rotuts, yes, I know they are rt hand, single bevel (the reason I became interested in them). I agree w you on the handles. Given most of my knives are western, a rounded or d shape handle would be something different and interesting to the grip (and maybe bring upon some sweet memories of my 2 trips to Japan, now many years ago : ). If I do grab one I'll go this route. Thank you!

Eatmywords · April 20, 2020

On 4/17/2020 at 6:34 PM, MokaPot said:

@Eatmywords , I like that you're already actually slicing sashimi and making rolls. IMO, hardly anybody really does that (at home).

I grew up eating homemade sashimi & sushi (maybe about as often as you seem to be doing). My mom made both (at home). She did a decent job and never had a special knife.

Hi Moka, thanks! When I found many years ago that I could get basic ingredients in the japanese and korean markets (in NYC) I started experimenting. Fast frwd 20yrs much of the staple stuff can be found here in my suburban hell like wasabi powder, pickled ginger, nori, soy, ponzu, sushi rice, mirin, rice vinegar, etc. I love that the masses have relatively recently begun to embrace these products. (I do have to work a little harder for sushi grade fish so we improvise).

Last week, soft shells emerged so I made spider rolls along w Cali rolls w lump crab meat (canned) plus a couple with crab stick for my little one who was afraid to try the 'real stuff' but eventually came around. I also bought a piece of whole smoked salmon and put that in a roll. As well air fried Halibut w panko and made rolls with them too. All w varying avocado, scallion and cucumber and topped the cooked stuff with an unagi sauce we made (sake, mirin, soy, sugar) that went fantastically well. Look, I mean it's no where near what we can get in a decent sushi bar but the flavors were there, and they all came out pretty nice. Anyway, I probably don't really need the knife but I want something a little sharper than what I think I can get w my existing knives and to practice on a whetstone : )

Edited April 20, 2020 by Eatmywords (log)

Eatmywords · April 22, 2020

On 4/17/2020 at 10:56 PM, btbyrd said:

What other knives do you have? If your budget is around $40 and you already have a knife or two, your money is likely better spent on a stone than on a knife. Frankly, I cannot conceive a non-garbage $40 yanagi; even $150 ones tend to have issues (like having bends and not laying flat on the ura/back of the knife). Sujihikis, which have bevels on both sides, have fewer issues and are better suited for slicing rolls.... but even so, $40 is still quite cheap. (Not inexpensive; cheap.) Yanagi are thick and used to slice fish almost exclusively; sujis are slimmer and are more general purpose slicers. Regardless, in this price range, I'm sorry to say that you're not likely to find much of quality. But you might not really need a specialty sushi knife. The thing that's most important for making rolls is just having a knife that is sharp (and wiped clean between cuts). A sharp chef's knife will do the job just fine. I'd take that $40 and invest it in something like a King 1000/6000 grit combo stone, which is perfect for those just learning to sharpen.

Thanks for the input. I have 2 sets of non German made Henckels plus several random chef, butcher, filet, pairing, bread, cleavers etc. Nothing professional grade. I sharpen w honing rods and a slide through sharpener and they've worked well for home (frequent) use. I can get them pretty sharp. Curious to incorp the whetstone though which I'll look into (and chk out your rec, thx).

I hear you on the knife. Probably don't need it but would like to play with one given how it differs from anything I have as per the single bevel. Given my expectations (low) and that I don't want to ruin a good one, I think I'll be ok w one of those I linked. If I like it and find myself using it often, maybe I'll invest in a good one like that beauty you posted above : )

Edited April 22, 2020 by Eatmywords (log)

paulraphael · April 28, 2020

On 4/22/2020 at 12:59 PM, Eatmywords said:

I hear you on the knife. Probably don't need it but would like to play with one given how it differs from anything I have as per the single bevel. Given my expectations (low) and that I don't want to ruin a good one, I think I'll be ok w one of those I linked. If I like it and find myself using it often, maybe I'll invest in a good one like that beauty you posted above : )

I'd advise against it, mostly because it's got a stainless steel blade. In that price range it's going to be made from crap steel that is probably difficult and unpleasant to sharpen, and may not take a sharp edge at all.

One of the best reasons to buy a cheap Japanese knife is to have a beater that you can practice sharpening techniques on, without being scared that you'll wreck it. But if it's miserable to sharpen, and doesn't give you feedback similar to a decent knife, you're not going to learn much.

The entry level for a useable yanagi seems to be around $140 right now. It used to be Korin's house brand, but those are now around 50% more expensive.

You might also find a good deal on a used one. Knife nuts are always buying and selling stuff. Which brings up the next point ... whether you buy new or used, if you get something decent, you'll be able to sell it. It's a good way to experiment / get an urge out of your system.

No matter what, make sure you budget (time and money) for at least a couple of decent stones. Sharpening a single-bevel knife is a different skill set, and many people will tell you that the quality of your sharpening stones is more important than with double-bevel blades. When it comes to sharpening, you'll be very happy to have bought a knife that's good enough to have a straight, properly ground blade ... but not so good that the steel is unmanageably hard.

Eatmywords · April 28, 2020

11 hours ago, paulraphael said:

I'd advise against it, mostly because it's got a stainless steel blade. In that price range it's going to be made from crap steel that is probably difficult and unpleasant to sharpen, and may not take a sharp edge at all.

One of the best reasons to buy a cheap Japanese knife is to have a beater that you can practice sharpening techniques on, without being scared that you'll wreck it. But if it's miserable to sharpen, and doesn't give you feedback similar to a decent knife, you're not going to learn much.

The entry level for a useable yanagi seems to be around $140 right now. It used to be Korin's house brand, but those are now around 50% more expensive.

You might also find a good deal on a used one. Knife nuts are always buying and selling stuff. Which brings up the next point ... whether you buy new or used, if you get something decent, you'll be able to sell it. It's a good way to experiment / get an urge out of your system.

No matter what, make sure you budget (time and money) for at least a couple of decent stones. Sharpening a single-bevel knife is a different skill set, and many people will tell you that the quality of your sharpening stones is more important than with double-bevel blades. When it comes to sharpening, you'll be very happy to have bought a knife that's good enough to have a straight, properly ground blade ... but not so good that the steel is unmanageably hard.

Thanks Paul, good points! You must've been reading my mind. I have not been in a rush to buy so its become a fun little distraction to browse, research materials, steel composition and just learn about knives in general. (Made me realize how crappy most of mine are...haha). So yes, I did read the stainless steel yanagis don't take to sharpening/keeping an edge as well as the carbons. I've seen a few used on ebay (is it the best online source?) but I wonder how they've been taken care of. In the site I posted originally there's a low end SK5 Carbon at $64 - https://jp-knives.com/hy-53023/. What do you think? I can't justify $150.

It's an interesting topic, knife quality and upgrading, esp for those of us not cooking professionally but perhaps a bit more technical and varied than the masses. Do I need better than a block set of Henckels and a boat load of random splty knives as long as they feel good in my hands, can be sharpened well enough for precise, efficient use? I haven't thought much about it but I am a bit now.

paulraphael · April 29, 2020

I'm completely unfamiliar with that knife shop and with the SK5 carbon knife. I would be worried about the blade being not straight, and about it need a lot of dressing on coarse stones at that price.

I don't have a problem with that steel. It's one of Hitachi's lower-end carbon steels, but my sujihiki in SK5 (by Kikuichi) performs just fine. It's a pleasure to sharpen and takes a seriously fine edge. It just has more impurities in it, and probably worse edge retention than the white and blue steels. You can actually smell the sulphur in it, which I think is kind of cool.

I'd see what kind of service you can get from that shop. Will they guarantee a straight knife? One thing I liked about Korin (back when I could afford their cheap knives) is that their knife master would dress any single-beveled blade for you for no extra charge.

rotuts · July 10, 2020

I had told a friend of mine about Watanabe knives :

http://www.kitchen-knife.jp

professional :

http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/

his first was a Gyuto :

http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/gyuto.htm

I of course then talked him into a Nakkiiri :

http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/smallnakkiri.htm

he got the 150 mm blade . the 120 mm blade currently is sold out.

so I piggybacked on his order , as he uses PayPal , I do not.

I got the smaller Gyuto :

http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/petite.htm

I now have both the 180 mm and the 150 mm.

you see them both above , along w a catalog they now send , and you get one of those

Japanese Bandanas' sorry , dopant know what you call them :

its a very indulgent purchase . but it came here on the day i sent in all my US Taxes , w payment.

got me back to a neutral keel.

the smaller Gyuto is a delight !

P.S.: I wonder what there second knife from the R in the pic from the brochure

My friend would enjoy this

has he has a place @ Woods Hole ( to the R of Cape Cod MA )

and they have an outstanding Fishmonger near by.

just saying .....he lurks here but has only posted one time

P.P.S.:

my two Gyuto's , one more time :

Edited July 10, 2020 by rotuts (log)

chromedome · July 10, 2020

LOL I looked at the photo and thought "Hmm, interesting double curve on that slicer."

...then I realized it was a printed catalogue, and that the slicer spanned the center fold. Duh.

Margaret Pilgrim · July 10, 2020

That was my first take also. Like "what is the purp;ose of THAT weirdo?" And then, yes, duh.

paulraphael · July 18, 2020

I've only heard good things about Watanabe. He has a reputation for great value in a traditional hand-forged knife.

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