Lemons and Limes: The Topic

[weinoo]

These are etrogs...

Could be.

[SylviaLovegren]

I have a kaffir lime tree. The limes do have a bumpy skin just like in the photo and they grow to about a 2-3" diameter, about the size of a tennis ball.

I also have a couple of calamondin/calamansi trees. They don't really look anything like this photo. They are much smaller than the poster is describing, their skin is smooth and, when ripe, they're a bright orange.

I can't say for sure that I know what this fruit is but I'd guess it is a kaffir lime, although mine don't get up to 4", so I don't know.

I am positive, though, that it's not calamansi.

Is it possible that it could be ugli fruit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugli_fruit

It's definitely not ugli -- I've had them and this ain't it.

Leaning to large kaffir or an aromatic citron type as huiray, weinoo and andiesenji suggested. I may go back and ask the guy to give me "his" name for it -- he was reluctant to do so when I bought it, probably figuring, rightly, that this six-foot blond would not have any understanding of his language. But maybe I'll try again.

[huiray]

Hmm, on Jorma Koskinen's website (linked to above for the citron and kaffir limes entries) "ethrog" is listed as Greek citron (Citrus medica 'Ethrog'), one of the varieties around, with other old varieties such as the one (Citrus medica 'Cedruna') originating from India. The citrus pages at MMPND (Univ. of Melbourne) lists Citrus medica L. var. ethrog Engl. -> Citrus limonimedica Lush. (The MMPND website also appears to have a good opinion of Koskinen's website)

On Koskinen's website there is also listed (and shown) Citrus medica 'Bajoura' - probably the same as the "bijora' I wondered about upstream?

Sylvia, if you can get "their" name from them, ask also which language/dialect group that name is in. Note the variations on the full MMPND page (at the top) that has the entries for Citrus medica L. .

Edited October 23, 2013 by huiray (log)

[andiesenji]

I phoned Ari at the middle eastern store. He just called back and told me the citron fruits they had last year and should have again this year - middle of next month - are an India fruit - Mahkukur (I think this is what he said.)

They are supposed to be sweeter than other citrons and more juicy pulp.

Found it with a Google search: 'Madhankri' or 'Madhkunkur'–fruit large with sweetish pulp. Apparently can be green or yellow and a citrus grower in Ojai, CA is growing them.

Edited October 23, 2013 by andiesenji (log)

[Jaymes]

Pulled a lime from my keffir tree and cut into it just to compare. The keffir has a lot more seeds than yours, so I think that rules it out.

[weinoo]

I'm pretty sure the ethrogs in the picture I posted are from Israel. They're part of the ceremony of Sukkot.

[Jaymes]

Pulled a lime from my keffir tree and cut into it just to compare. The keffir has a lot more seeds than yours, so I think that rules it out.

Now that I look at your photo a little more closely, I see that you made your cut closer to one end of the fruit. I just cut mine right through the middle. So it's entirely possible that that's the reason why there are not a lot of seeds visible in your photo.

When I cut my keffir lime more closely to one end, I don't see so many seeds visible as in the middle.

And otherwise, your fruit looks exactly like mine.

I'm back to thinking that yours indeed might be a particularly large keffir lime.

[SylviaLovegren]

Hmm, on Jorma Koskinen's website (linked to above for the citron and kaffir limes entries) "ethrog" is listed as Greek citron (Citrus medica 'Ethrog'), one of the varieties around, with other old varieties such as the one (Citrus medica 'Cedruna') originating from India. The citrus pages at MMPND (Univ. of Melbourne) lists Citrus medica L. var. ethrog Engl. -> Citrus limonimedica Lush. (The MMPND website also appears to have a good opinion of Koskinen's website)

On Koskinen's website there is also listed (and shown) Citrus medica 'Bajoura' - probably the same as the "bijora' I wondered about upstream?

Sylvia, if you can get "their" name from them, ask also which language/dialect group that name is in. Note the variations on the full MMPND page (at the top) that has the entries for Citrus medica L. .

That is a FANTASTIC website. Thank you for sharing. I'll get back to the market and see if I can get them to give me the name -- maybe my dark-eyed husband can coax it out of them...

I phoned Ari at the middle eastern store. He just called back and told me the citron fruits they had last year and should have again this year - middle of next month - are an India fruit - Mahkukur (I think this is what he said.)

They are supposed to be sweeter than other citrons and more juicy pulp.

Found it with a Google search: 'Madhankri' or 'Madhkunkur'–fruit large with sweetish pulp. Apparently can be green or yellow and a citrus grower in Ojai, CA is growing them.

Thanks for doing that -- that's awfully nice of you. Will see if that name means anything to my shopkeepers.

Pulled a lime from my keffir tree and cut into it just to compare. The keffir has a lot more seeds than yours, so I think that rules it out.

Now that I look at your photo a little more closely, I see that you made your cut closer to one end of the fruit. I just cut mine right through the middle. So it's entirely possible that that's the reason why there are not a lot of seeds visible in your photo.

When I cut my keffir lime more closely to one end, I don't see so many seeds visible as in the middle.

And otherwise, your fruit looks exactly like mine.

I'm back to thinking that yours indeed might be a particularly large keffir lime.

After reading this I cut my fruit down the middle and it still only has a few seeds. Have looked at more pictures of kaffir limes and while the bumpiness is very similar, the shape is wrong -- the kaffir is round, while this fruit is pear shaped -- and it is quite large. These things don't rule out kaffir-ness entirely, but I'm leaning more to a kind of citron now that I've looked at various citrus cultivars on the CitrusPages site.

I'll report back after a trip to visit my supplier. Thank you all for the help and the interesting replies!

[SylviaLovegren]

Well, I am crushed. The guy said they call it a "lemon". When I pressed him for a non-English word he said maybe they would call it "zamar" (or something that sounded like that). So that gets me nowhere. On the other hand, I looked at some of the other fruits in the box and they were in all different shapes, but some of them were very distinctly the etrog shape that Weinoo shows above. So some type of citron.

My husband says he'll try another day to talk to the guy -- most of the women who go in the shop are veiled, so he may have been uncomfortable talking to an unaccompanied unveiled female. We'll see.

[andiesenji]

I went to the market today and took my iPad so I could show Ari the fruit.

He said it is certainly, although greener, very like the fruits they bought last year - at the Grand Central Market in L.A. from a citrus seller whose brother owns a ranch in Ojai and grows "exotic" citrus for specialty stores like Ari's.

He goes on Tuesdays at 3 A.M. and will see if the man has any yet this year.

The grower also has Buddah's Hand, blood oranges and had a limited number of yuzu last year, bigger crop expected this year.

He also said that the fruits should feel "heavy" for their size.

[SylviaLovegren]

I went to the market today and took my iPad so I could show Ari the fruit.

He said it is certainly, although greener, very like the fruits they bought last year - at the Grand Central Market in L.A. from a citrus seller whose brother owns a ranch in Ojai and grows "exotic" citrus for specialty stores like Ari's.

He goes on Tuesdays at 3 A.M. and will see if the man has any yet this year.

The grower also has Buddah's Hand, blood oranges and had a limited number of yuzu last year, bigger crop expected this year.

He also said that the fruits should feel "heavy" for their size.

You are a champ. And, yes, they do feel heavy.

[Kerry Beal]

Since it smells like bergamot - perhaps it is?

[andiesenji]

I had a bergamot orange tree when I lived down in Canoga Park - in the Valley. I got the tree at Treeland, a nursery in the westernmost end of the Valley next to the Ventura Freeway.

The skins were similar to some oranges that have the larger pores on the surface and were definitely orange in color when ripe.

The aroma was very distinct and flowery.

The tree was messy in that it would drop all its nearly ripe fruit if at all stressed. When blooming, which was most of the time, except the middle of summer, it would be alive with bees, yellow jackets and hummingbirds.

[SylviaLovegren]

Since it smells like bergamot - perhaps it is?

Bergamots arent' that bumpy. Oddly enough, there was a bergamot growing in a park in NJ when we lived there (I'm pretty sure it was taken inside during the winter!) and I saw the fruits.

[Kerry Beal]

Some are. If you google images of them you'll see some are bumpy. And I certainly know the bottled ones I've seen that are a greek product are very bumpy. And green!

Is the juice sweet or sour?

If sour it could be lahara - the fruit that evolved from valencia/seville oranges imported to curacao - course that's probably a bit of a stretch - what would it be doing in your store.

[huiray]

Hmm. The images on the Google answer set that show bumpy "bergamots" - such as this, this, and this appear to have been taken by someone with a Thai name (the copyright holder). Then there's this. Also this, where "bergamot" leaves from Thailand are offered, a.k.a. kaffir lime leaves. There's also a Turkish website that claims to offer "bergamot trees for sale, with a pic of fruit in a basket that looks like citrons, as well as the same pic as here (linked to above) which I wonder if they had bought for their use or ripped off and plastered their logo on.

Then there's this.

FWIW, Wikipedia also has a statement (last paragraph of the introductory section) about bergamot orange being confused w/ citron...

According to the author ("brett") on this blog article of his, in the comments section, kaffir lime is sometimes identified as bergamot (in Thailand, according to the context as I read it).

OTOH, most other pictures of the smoother/rounder "bergamot" fruits in that Google answer set show the typical single-lobed citrus-type leaves on the plants...

Hmm.

[Jaymes]

I went to the market today and took my iPad so I could show Ari the fruit.

He said it is certainly, although greener, very like the fruits they bought last year - at the Grand Central Market in L.A. from a citrus seller whose brother owns a ranch in Ojai and grows "exotic" citrus for specialty stores like Ari's.

He goes on Tuesdays at 3 A.M. and will see if the man has any yet this year.

The grower also has Buddah's Hand, blood oranges and had a limited number of yuzu last year, bigger crop expected this year.

He also said that the fruits should feel "heavy" for their size.

You are a champ. And, yes, they do feel heavy.

That is something I noticed very distinctly about my keffir limes. They feel very heavy for their size. Remarkably so.

[SylviaLovegren]

Some are. If you google images of them you'll see some are bumpy. And I certainly know the bottled ones I've seen that are a greek product are very bumpy. And green!

Is the juice sweet or sour?

If sour it could be lahara - the fruit that evolved from valencia/seville oranges imported to curacao - course that's probably a bit of a stretch - what would it be doing in your store.

The juice tastes very lemon/lime but more lemon. Definitely sour. Not quite as sour as a lemon but not the sort of thing most people would eat without adding sugar.

[SylviaLovegren]

Hmm. The images on the Google answer set that show bumpy "bergamots" - such as this, this, and this appear to have been taken by someone with a Thai name (the copyright holder). Then there's this. Also this, where "bergamot" leaves from Thailand are offered, a.k.a. kaffir lime leaves. There's also a Turkish website that claims to offer "bergamot trees for sale, with a pic of fruit in a basket that looks like citrons, as well as the same pic as here (linked to above) which I wonder if they had bought for their use or ripped off and plastered their logo on.

Then there's this.

FWIW, Wikipedia also has a statement (last paragraph of the introductory section) about bergamot orange being confused w/ citron...

According to the author ("brett") on this blog article of his, in the comments section, kaffir lime is sometimes identified as bergamot (in Thailand, according to the context as I read it).

OTOH, most other pictures of the smoother/rounder "bergamot" fruits in that Google answer set show the typical single-lobed citrus-type leaves on the plants...

Hmm.

Those are sure very bumpy bergamots! I'm beginning to think that citrus are just promiscuous little buggers like chili peppers and will cross with anything and hence, it's hopeless to try to pin them down.

[huiray]

Actually, what I was hmm-ing about was that "bergamot" appears to be used by some in Thailand (and maybe other places) as a name for what is otherwise actually "kaffir lime" or makrut lime, and that those bumpy "bergamot" limes in both Google image sets were also identified as kaffir limes in their descriptions. The "bergamot" leaves (such as in that link I gave) are "double" leaves that look a lot like kaffir lime leaves (whereas the smooth-skinned bergamots from other images in the first image set have the "single" leaves, so far as can be seen, on the branches/trees)

Edited October 27, 2013 by huiray (log)

[andiesenji]

My bergamot orange tree had single leaves that were like the orange tree leaves but the mature leaves had a "canoe" shape, slightly curved with the edges curved up. The fruits were round and some had a sort of "nipple" on the stem end sort of like a minneola.

[GlorifiedRice]

 

All of the 3 that I used so far had seeds, a total of 8 seeds... Pass these by

Edited June 14, 2015 by GlorifiedRice (log)

[Thanks for the Crepes]

Glorified Rice,

 

Thanks for the tip, and I'm sure many others who would desire seedless lemons will appreciate it too.

 

For myself, I find it not much trouble to flip the seeds out with the tip of my knife after cutting off the white pith from the center of the lemon at the thin edge of the wedge. You can hold it up to a light, conveniently right over my cutting board area, and the semi-translucent lemon will reveal every seed. I also dig out the seeds on a lemon half before juicing it. I'm always annoyed when restaurants don't do this and serve you lemon wedges with seeds. It seems to be pretty universal, all the way up to high end places I used to be able to afford to go.

 

In fact, the only attempt to deal with lemon seeds from a restaurant I've ever seen was at Jack Astor's with a seafood order, and they tied cheesecloth around half a lemon. Nice touch, but we never went back because of other issues not to do with the food.

 

It always worries me a bit when food scientists try to interfere with the very way that our food plants reproduce, so seeds are A-Okay with me, and I just deal with them. Life is persistent and prolific. I can't get over how many species we lose every year, and now they want to mess with our food plants. 

 

That said, I do appreciate "seedless" watermelon (which contains both white and brown seeds, but fewer) and seedless grapes, but they also contain small edible white seeds usually.

[GlorifiedRice]

Crepes?

To be totally transparent, I only bought these cause they were in a cute 4 pack and to be even more honest....lol...I didnt feel like walking clear across the produce section (40 feet) to get a mesh

bag of lemons...I didnt care that they were seedless.

 

:::Slinking away in lazy shame:::

[FeChef]

I dont care about picking seeds out either. But i would be pissed if they cost more then seeded.