Open Forum on Food Politics

[Thanks for the Crepes]

10 hours ago, paul o' vendange said:

The rules - cumbersome as they are, and becoming even more so - are therefore being designed by the former heads of large agribusiness companies.  Those rules - such as the boards I mentioned above, costing upwards of $100,000 for some - actually put smaller, artisanal producers out of business. 

 

Yes, this is exactly what happened many moons ago to my grandparent's small dairy business of about 40 head. When the requirements for onsite pasteurization came in, and they couldn't make any money on such a small scale by selling their raw milk to a middleman, they had to sell the herd. I wasn't economically feasible to put in the required equipment. They were still allowed to keep chickens and sell the eggs, which did not require refrigeration because they weren't washed as the commercial ones are. Washing removes the protective coating on the egg. They were just selling products onsite at their farm, but being in Louisiana, even that was verboten. 

 

One of my favorite memories is how my grandmother cherished a photograph of me milking one of the cows into a Maxwell House coffee can. I was 3 or 4 years old, and a cute little dickens, if I say so myself. I was bent over some, but probably wouldn't have stood much higher than the cow's hock. 

[Martin Fisher]

Yeah, the rules started many years ago — many of them were just plain stupid.

My maternal grandfather ran a small creamery for 35+ years.

When the 'bulk tank' requirement came along (rather than benign milk cans), my paternal grandfather would have been out of luck with his small dairy if it hadn't been for my maternal grandfather accepting the milk via a 'grandfather clause,'

Anyway, it's just a part of the BULLSHIT that led to destruction of smaller farms and the expansion of mega-farms.

Butz played a HUGE part in destroying quality agriculture in this country,

 

Raw milk!? Raw milk cheese!? Ain't nobody's effing business but my own if I partake!!!!!!

 

Edited January 30, 2017 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[Martin Fisher]

4 hours ago, Paul Fink said:

I have a hard time figuring out how big corporations would benefit from banding French cheeses.

 

Any business benefits by limiting competition.

I think such schemes (or potential schemes) happen a lot behind the scenes.

 

Not milk related, but food related, and something I know a bit about.

Back in the 1980s Ralph Gamber who ran  Dutch Gold Honey in Lancaster,PA....which mostly packed shitty Chinese honey....attempted to spark legislation that would outlaw hand capping of honey bottles by small producers, effectively eliminating a lot of competiton because automatic capping equipment is so expensive.

There isn't a DAMN thing wrong with hand capping  a bottle of honey.

That's just ONE example.

Greedy! Greedy! Greedy!

Edited January 30, 2017 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[Thanks for the Crepes]

1 minute ago, DiggingDogFarm said:

There isn't a DAMN thing wrong with hand capping bottle on honey.

 

I agree, and I can't remember where I first read about ancient archaeological honey discoveries, but I found a link here. Honey actually has antimicrobial properties. But AgraBusiness doesn't like competition and has enough money to crush competition from small (and usually far better) producers like bugs. There's absolutely no science behind this one AT ALL.  

 

It's better in Europe, as I understand it, where they don't allow lobbyists to run roughshod over the food supply.

[liuzhou]

2 hours ago, Thanks for the Crepes said:

It's better in Europe, as I understand it, where they don't allow lobbyists to run roughshod over the food supply.

 

Oh yeah?

 

Quote

President Charles de Gaulle famously remarked on the impossibility of governing a country that produced so many cheeses. But that was in 1962. Today it might be just as hard to govern the country, but it has nothing to do with cheese – because 90% of the producers have either gone to the wall or are in the hands of the dairy giants. This is thanks to a mixture of draconian health measures in Brussels, designed to come down hard on raw milk products, and hostile buyouts by those who want to corner the market.

Newsweek - French Cheesemakers Crippled by EU Health Measures

 

While some things are better in Europe, the idea that they are immune from lobbyists is wishful thinking.

More worrying for me however is this:

Is chlorinated chicken about to hit our shelves after new US trade deal?Consumers could be exposed to American farming practices banned by the EU

[Thanks for the Crepes]

I hear ya @liuzhou.

 

This is so sad, but all I am going to say at this point, is don't we all just love the globalization that concentrates the wealth in the hands of only a very few and makes slaves out of most our workers. Maybe it elevates some from countries that had many modern day slaves. It has made many of my countrymen, women and children homeless. They were previously prosperous before the super-rich started appropriating their labor for profit offshore.

 

Just eight men own as much wealth as half of the population in the world right now, and it gets worse every day. Does anyone really believe this will not influence our food supply?

 

Now they want extra profits from the mainstream food supply?

 

I was naive, and thought that there's plenty to go around, but I did not account for the already obscenely greedy wealthy component and the political machinery backed by them in place. Fortunately, I'm mortal, and won't live long enough to learn the full extent of the corruption that mankind is capable of getting up to. There is not much hope at this point for responsible small farmers or cheese makers. So, so sad.

 

There will be a reckoning one day, I have to hope.

[Paul Fink]

8 hours ago, DiggingDogFarm said:

Not milk related, but food related, and something I know a bit about.

Back in the 1980s Ralph Gamber who ran  Dutch Gold Honey in Lancaster,PA....which mostly packed shitty Chinese honey....attempted to spark legislation that would outlaw hand capping of honey bottles by small producers, effectively eliminating a lot of competiton because automatic capping equipment is so expensive.

There isn't a DAMN thing wrong with hand capping  a bottle of honey.

That's just ONE example.

Greedy! Greedy! Greedy!

 

Good point.

[weedy]

On 1/29/2017 at 6:25 PM, DiggingDogFarm said:

Out of control, control-freaks gone wild.

Too much regulation, taxation, meddling, etc.

It's why I got out of farming.

 

 

In general. I think there is not nearly enough regulation and taxation. 

Taxes are at their lowest since the 1920's. If that's 'too much' then what should they be? Zero?

 

i have a friend who was a government meat inspector until they cut that dept back to near nothing. Now you simply have no way to really no what you're eating is safe, because inspectors are massively understaffed. If a meat producer or packer is inspected even once every 10 years now that's a lot. 

It's ridiculously UNDERregulated. 

[Martin Fisher]

2 minutes ago, weedy said:

In general. I think there is not nearly enough regulation and taxation. 

Taxes are at their lowest since the 1920's. If that's 'too much' then what should they be? Zero?

 

i have a friend who was a government meat inspector until they cut that dept back to near nothing. Now you simply have no way to really no what you're eating is safe, because inspectors are massively understaffed. If a meat producer or packer is inspected even once every 10 years now that's a lot. 

It's ridiculously UNDERregulated. 

 

 

Do you/have you farmed?

Do you know my situation?

Edited January 31, 2017 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[gfweb]

1 hour ago, weedy said:

In general. I think there is not nearly enough regulation and taxation. 

Taxes are at their lowest since the 1920's. If that's 'too much' then what should they be? Zero?

 

i have a friend who was a government meat inspector until they cut that dept back to near nothing. Now you simply have no way to really no what you're eating is safe, because inspectors are massively understaffed. If a meat producer or packer is inspected even once every 10 years now that's a lot. 

It's ridiculously UNDERregulated. 

 

There are a zillion regs.  I would say that rather than being under-regulated, the regs we have are under-enforced.

[weedy]

No. 

Does that mean I don't, as a citizen, have an opinion about the role of government and the need for regulation ?

 

I would agree that rules are also under enforced. 

It goes with the attitude against regulation. 

For examole, as I said, taxes are historically low and yet some people continue to say they're "too high". Those same people don't want the government to effectively do anything, including inspecting meat or enforcing food regulations. 

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by weedy (log)

[Shelby]

Never mind.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Shelby
Never mind. Not worth it. (log)

[Martin Fisher]

 

1 minute ago, Shelby said:

I have stayed out of this...but .....  Weedy, seriously, unless you have your own farm, you have no idea.

 

Exactly!!!

[gfweb]

In fact unless you have a business of any kind, you have no idea.

[paul o' vendange]

1 hour ago, weedy said:

In general. I think there is not nearly enough regulation and taxation. 

Taxes are at their lowest since the 1920's. If that's 'too much' then what should they be? Zero?

 

i have a friend who was a government meat inspector until they cut that dept back to near nothing. Now you simply have no way to really no what you're eating is safe, because inspectors are massively understaffed. If a meat producer or packer is inspected even once every 10 years now that's a lot. 

It's ridiculously UNDERregulated. 

Can I give you a counter-example?  An inspector who "followed the letter" on opening requirements.  Hot water, based on peak capacity.  Part of that calculation was a hot water sink for washing lettuces and other vegetables.  A hot water sink.  For washing lettuce.  It tipped us over the edge in terms of total capacity needed, and we would have needed to get a new hot water heater, to the tune of, as I recall it, over $10,000 we didn't have, to start up. 

 

Thankfully I fought, and argued before the state, that you don't use hot water to rinse lettuces.  I won, and so our existing hot water heater was enough.  What if it wasn't?  How many businesses can't open, or fold, because of ridiculous laws like this? 

 

I really loved the requirement that there could be no exposed silver in the restaurant.  A French place, expected to keep our tables covered in plastic during service.  We, and I think mostly everyone, kind of winks together....we put the plastic on for inspection, the inspector inspects, knowing the second she leaves, it comes off, and we move on.  How much sense does that make?

 

It's important to think of these, too.  And in terms of this French cheese issue, I think it's very relevant.  OK, I already posted my Abondance cheeses.  Here's some tommes, and reblochons.  I only came to them because I was gifted to taste the real thing, nurtured along masterfully, from France.  I find this incredibly wrong.

Edited January 31, 2017 by paul o' vendange (log)

[weedy]

I have my own business. 

 

until recently i also had a food business. 

 

am I to assume that those of you who are not directly in the communications or entertainment industry can have no opinions about say net neutrality or copyright issues?

seriously?

 

i don't have to agree with every regulation  (for example I think regulations against some kinds of medical research or procedures are ridiculous ) but that doesn't change my feeling that government needs to act more as a force for good; not to 'get out of the way'. 

 

It's completely evident that without regulation and enforcement business will inevitably take advantage to the detriment of the public. The fantasy that 'markets' police themselves only exists in (bad) fiction by Ayn Rand. 

Edited January 31, 2017 by weedy (log)

[rustwood]

13 hours ago, weedy said:

 government needs to act more as a force for good; not to 'get out of the way'. 

 

Its completely evident that without regulation and enforcement business will inevitably take advantage to the detriment of the public

 

I have to agree.  What many proponents of "less" regulation seem to be in favor of is no regulations that will interfere in any way with what they personally want to do.  Hypocritically, as in the honey capping example, those same individuals will sometimes be in favor of regulation that will give them a competitive advantage.  I am sure many people honestly believe that a given regulation is unnecessary and in their particular case it may not be, but that doesn't mean it isn't still needed to protect the public from someone else who has less common sense (or is less scrupulous). That sort of thing can be very frustrating for some, but it also may be a necessary evil.

 

What we need to focus on is making and reforming regulations so that they are both effective and reasonable.  There is always a little more we could do to improve safety, but at a certain point the incremental gains in safety are very small relative to the burden of the regulation.  We seem to have lost the ability to reach a well reasoned compromise.  Instead issues are framed as black vs white and us against them.  I believe in most cases the best compromise will leave neither side entirely happy but no one seems to be willing to compromise in any meaningful way - certainly not whichever side currently has the upper hand in Washington.

 

The notion that markets will police themselves is ludicrous, Upton Sinclair must be rolling over in his grave.

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by rustwood (log)

[weedy]

it's necessary and it's NOT "evil"!

 

quite the opposite

[Martin Fisher]

Over regulation, taxation etc. is unnecessary and it is EVIL.

Federal regulation, State regulation, local regulation, licensing fees, etc.

Federal taxation. State taxation, local taxation, miscellaneous taxation.

The professional help required o sort it all out.

The burden of it all is overwhelming, especially for small farmers who often work 16-18 hour days for a pittance.

It's destroying the soul of this country.

 

Examples of SOME of the regulations and resulting complications facing farmers:

Regulatory System Impacting Farmers and Ranchers

 

 

[Thanks for the Crepes]

I haven't seen many fans of Monsanto's product in this particular thread, although I have had debates with some fans of Roundup on other threads. Monsanto, I think in self-preservation mode sold this product to the German company Bayer for $66 billion last year. You may know that I am not a fan of Monsanto or Roundup.

 

My first exposure or knowledge of their existence was on a neighboring dairy farm that also grew field corn to feed their herd when I was a teen. This was the same Matthews farm where my brother would work later and meet his only wife, and also meet Mr. Matthews, who was the grandfather of his bride. They were our neighbors, but I had to walk or ride a horse a couple miles to get to this farm from my family's little 20 acre hobby farm. Mr. Matthews (I never knew his first name, because back then, that is how kids addressed their elders) always seemed to enjoy me hanging around and my intense interest in his farming operation. He especially enjoyed my appetite for food, and I remember him saying to me one time after offering me several different foods, including popcorn cooked in a paper bag in one of the first microwaves, that he "appreciated females who would eat".  I don't know if he had an anorexic daughter or something, but this statement has always stuck in my mind. It made me feel very welcome there. I kept coming back.

 

One day I was in an equipment barn at the Matthews farm in Essex Junction, VT with one of the sons who was much older than me, an adult. There was a tractor in there that had outriggers (not sure if that is what they are called, but the things that stick out out the sides to spray the crops with Roundup). There was also a big drum of Roundup mounted behind the tractor. When I started to casually move toward the tractor, the son became quite alarmed and told me not to touch it and keep my distance, that they were spraying poison chemicals with it. Even back then, smart people knew Roundup was poison. It was being marketed at the time as being as safe as table salt. Now they have lost a lawsuit where a jury awarded the plaintiff $259,000,000.

 

When I tried to search for results to find egullet.org posts about Monsanto and Roundup I was greeted at the top of the search by ads for lawyers to help victims of glyphosate.

 

I have never liked Monsanto, just knowing what I knew, but I also learned from this video that they are the benevolent entity behind DDT and agent orange. Now they have skated, leaving Bayer holding the bag.