Beef Short Ribs: The Topic

[Duvel]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:26 AM, Bernie said:

Lets back up a bit. Once you mix water with something else (that is dissolve something in it) it is no longer water.

It will boil at some other temperature.

It may be HIGHER or LOWER.

Maybe to assist here a bit: dissolved components usually increase the boiling point of the resulting (watery) solution. Notable exceptions are components, that themselves have a lower boiling point than water. In the kitchen context that is only ethanol. As @gfweb has rightfully pointed out, the effect is minuscule and does not contribute to the effects discussed here, though.

 

On 8/2/2021 at 11:26 AM, Bernie said:

You add sugar to water and heat it and it will form a toffee which will certainly reach much higher than the boiling point of water (and I have had the burns to prove it, so there...)

This is not fully correct. The water initially added to melt and caramelize sugar is used in order to avoid burning. It will evaporate and the sugar will eventually caramelize (thus polymerize). This is not related to the above mentioned increase in boiling point.

 

On 8/2/2021 at 11:26 AM, Bernie said:

A sauce containing water can certainly get above the boiling point of water but any water NOT Dissolved completely will tend to boil off (that's whats happening in a reduction).

Water in this case is the solvent. As you agitate the solution (e.g. by boiling), concentration gradients will quickly dissipate. There won‘t be areas of „pure water“ left. The evaporation takes place all over the surface of the solution is a statistic process, depending on relative concentration and boiling point.

 

On 8/2/2021 at 11:26 AM, Bernie said:

In physics theory the temperature of the water is the average of all the energy levels of every molecule in the water. In theory there is a possibility that a layer of ice could form on a pot of boiling water if all the low energy molecules were to clump together on the top. The probability is extremely low though.😁

Unfortunately, this is not correct. Entropy will ensure this does not happen. 

 

On 8/2/2021 at 11:26 AM, Bernie said:

As far as the oven temperature that is more about heat transfer. It will take longer to get the liquid to its boiling point if you set the oven lower.

Yes, and even more importantly it is about the heat transfer medium. Saturated steam (e.g.) in a closed system will transfer heat far more efficiently than dry air (in an oven), and a rapidly boiling solution will do the same significantly better than a barely simmering medium. And this is where the major differences are rooted if you compare braising (a technique where the braised goods are not fully immersed in liquid) at higher vs. lower temperatures.

[dcarch]

Everything in the above discussion changes relative to temperature, depending on where you live. Altitude effects boiling point.

 

dcarch

 

 

[Duvel]

1 hour ago, dcarch said:

Altitude effects boiling point.

Yes. However, I do not see how

 

1 hour ago, dcarch said:

Everything in the above discussion changes relative to temperature,

 

From my point of view the statements given concerning the delta of temperature choices and the lid/no lid discussion will not differ, whether the braise is done by @BonVivant at sea level or by @Panaderia Canadiense somewhere above the clouds …

Edited August 4, 2021 by Duvel (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

My go-to method for short ribs is French Laundry instruction for the ox-tail part of Surf and Turf.   In short, marinate meat overnight in “cooked” red wine and chopped aromatic vegetables, add all this to browned meats, cover with paper lid and  cook in oven low and slow.   Have never considered internal temperature, only meat’s unctuous doneness.   This is very “in short” as I have cooked this so often that I’m sure I’ve veered far from Keller’s original.   People call the next day for the “recipe”.    

[Bernie]

5 hours ago, Duvel said:

On 8/2/2021 at 7:26 PM, Bernie said:

You add sugar to water and heat it and it will form a toffee which will certainly reach much higher than the boiling point of water (and I have had the burns to prove it, so there...)

This is not fully correct. The water initially added to melt and caramelize sugar is used in order to avoid burning. It will evaporate and the sugar will eventually caramelize (thus polymerize). This is not related to the above mentioned increase in boiling point.

Pretty sure that is not the whole story. If you were to evaporate all the water then that indeed will be the case. But if you stop the process at say 110C then the volume will be different to what the sugar was alone. if you take cool sugar syrup and heat it it will continue to increase in temperature.

 

5 hours ago, Duvel said:

On 8/2/2021 at 7:26 PM, Bernie said:

In physics theory the temperature of the water is the average of all the energy levels of every molecule in the water. In theory there is a possibility that a layer of ice could form on a pot of boiling water if all the low energy molecules were to clump together on the top. The probability is extremely low though.😁

Unfortunately, this is not correct. Entropy will ensure this does not happen. 

Entropy is exactly why it CAN happen. Entropy (in this context) is the measure of the possibilities or any combination of states a chemical or substance can be in. If you like its a measure of the likely hood of the chemical or substance being in any possible random state.

In this case it is extremely unlikely, but just because statistically very very small, does not negate the possibility.

[Wait. Wot]

20 minutes ago, Bernie said:

 

Entropy is exactly why it CAN happen.

Just remember that entropy isn't what it used to be.

[Duvel]

14 hours ago, Bernie said:

Pretty sure that is not the whole story. If you were to evaporate all the water then that indeed will be the case. But if you stop the process at say 110C then the volume will be different to what the sugar was alone. if you take cool sugar syrup and heat it it will continue to increase in temperature.

Understood - my impression was that you wanted to go to the caramelized toffee stage. If you stay in the sirup stage(s), you will have residual water. However, your system changes from your initial 

 

On 8/2/2021 at 11:26 AM, Bernie said:

You add sugar to water

e.g. an aqueous solution of sugar (what this boiling point discussion is about) to metastable sugar melt with residual water content < 20%, so a slightly better description would be sugar with a lowered melting point. A good reference can be found here.

 

14 hours ago, Bernie said:

Entropy is exactly why it CAN happen. Entropy (in this context) is the measure of the possibilities or any combination of states a chemical or substance can be in. If you like its a measure of the likely hood of the chemical or substance being in any possible random state.

Sorry, @Bernie - this is not the definition of entropy. Your system starts from a random state of distribution, and will continue to maximize its entropy (or “randomness”) over time. This is the second law of thermodynamics.
 

Your system will not return spontaneously to a state that has a higher order, e.g. by randomly forming a temperature gradient or changing part of its state above the transition temperature (irreversibility). 
 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Duvel (log)

[torolover]

So I did another test.

 

I braised my short ribs in a 250F oven.  After 1 hour I checked the temp of the braising liquid and it was 210-212F!

 

I braised my short ribs in a 200F oven.  After 1 hour, I checked the temp of the braising liquid and it was 195F.  After 3 hours, the temp of the braising liquid was still 195F.

 

So if you really want to braise low and slow, it needs to be done at 200F oven or lower.  Otherwise braising in a 250F oven is the same slow boiling the short ribs on a stovetop.

 

Please note, this is assuming that the ribs are completely submerged in stock/braising liquid, and you get the stock to a boil, before you put into the oven.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by torolover (log)

[btbyrd]

I don’t fully submerge when I braise, and I often leave the lid ajar.

[Victual Vignettes]

I don't know what's happened to me, but after a long spell of not making short ribs or any braises really, I have attempted them twice in the last couple of months with underwhelming results. Specifically, I'm ending up with a too - watery sauce and meat that is "done" but somewhat stringy and not particularly flavorful.

 

I think I need to go back to the basic elements and get tips on how to amp each step up a notch - what type of wine, ratio of liquid to beef, are you simmering stove-top or cooking in the oven (does it make a notable difference?), type of beef (I have used grass fed on these two recent sub-par attempts). I am open to any and all suggestions. 

 

I should further note that I theoretically have the time to prepare these and let them cook then also cool in order to skim fat, if that is recommended. Essentially, I am able to start at 11:30 a.m. something that won't need to be on the table until 7ish pm.  I am working with a large staub dutch oven and cooking with gas (range and oven). Please give me all of your best tried and true tips! Your ultimate instructions. Thank you. I will share my results.

 

[Smithy]

I think you're using the right equipment. The Staub Dutch Oven has good thermal mass, and that's what you want although I don't think it has to be Staub. I've had good results with other brands of heavy cooking equipment, and even with glass Pyrex baking dishes and aluminum foil in a pinch. My basic procedure for beef short ribs is:

• rinse the ribs, pat them dry, and coat with the seasoning (rub) of your choice;
• brown on stovetop in fat of your choice (I generally use olive oil);
• add enough water to cover the bottom of the pan, and come up maybe a quarter of the way, no more than halfway, up the side of the ribs;
• cover and put into a low oven temperature (225F to 275F);
• walk away and leave them for 1.5 - 2 hours, then check; you're looking for the meat to be tender enough to remove the bones;
• remove the meat from the juice, let it cool enough to remove the bones, and set it aside;
• defat the sauce; make gravy from the sauce if you wish (here's where I would add wine); reduce sauce to the thickness you want; reheat the rib meat in the sauce;
• serve and enjoy.

I haven't cooked short ribs since December 2023, but this post shows the steps and the results. The pan used isn't an enameled cast iron because I didn't have one available, but it was the biggest Dutch oven that I had, and it worked well despite its light weight.

 

Some notes:

• @Margaret Pilgrim, in this post, recommended a French Laundry - inspired recipe with video. She cautioned that the volume is very loud, so be prepared to turn it down. This is considerably more elaborate than what I do, and probably orders of magnitude more flavorful.
• In an eGCI lab on braising, long long ago, some people reported having good success with stovetop braising so they can monitor the progress of the braise and be sure that the liquid is at the lowest possible simmer. It's never worked as well for me, whether I used an electric stove / oven or gas stove / oven, so I've always stuck with oven braising for best tenderness. YMMV.
• For all the detailed experiments and discussion on the braising seminar, search the eGCI for "braising" or "The Truth About Braising". It was a week-long seminar, followed by Q&A, and it's where I first learned about braising and fell in love with the method. The introduction is here.
• Some people found that browning beforehand helped; others didn't. Some found that the braising liquid mattered; some didn't. So my method listed above works for me but isn't the do-all and be-all. See my first note about Margaret's method!

Finally: I've never tried braising grass-fed beef ribs, and don't know what the marbling is like. If that meat is very lean, you may have to adjust methods. I've listed what I do with grocery-store ribs. Maybe someone else can help with the grass-fed aspect. My guess, based on your "stringy and not very flavorful" results, is that you're overcooking them and maybe not seasoning them properly at the outset.

 

[rotuts]

@Victual Vignettes

 

what were your SR's like before ?  what type of meat did you use ?

 

I would think that true grass fed beef presents difficulties w braising :  it's leaner , and tougher than grain finished beef.

 

All braises end up w meat , while tender , when tasted alone w/o the resulting sauce , can be dry and stringy if over cooked.

 

its the nature of meat fibers contracting , making the sauce.   

 

start w a flavorful beef stock .  if using wine , consider a dry-er version , as the sugars will concentrate as the wine evaporates.

 

but you might want that sweetness.

 

and let the braise cool , and use the nexxt day if you can .   some of the stock re equilibrates w the meat.

 

over all , I think you meat is too lean , and possibly over cooked.

 

@Smithy has good refereces , above.

 

P.S.:  Ive only cooked GFB a couple of times , sirloin-ish cuts. I use SV as the method ,  @ 130 F specifically

 

to minimize muscle contraction , and timed for tenderness.  this got me flavorful tender meat .

 

not sure if this helps.

Edited Tuesday at 05:17 PM by rotuts (log)

[AlaMoi]

the usual seasonings are semi-consistent across recipes - as for 'too thin' one approach I've used is start with a roux, cook it to dark, use that as a base, adding beef stock as needed to adjust consistency to your liking.

for wine I like Marsala - has a nice flavor twist.

another very successful trick:  make it, cool, chill overnight in the fridge, reheat&serve next day.

(the baby potatoes below were boiled and added on service second day....)

[Victual Vignettes]

Here to f/u on my most recent effort and answer some of your questions. Also thanks to all who weighed in with feedback and tips.

My two sad attempts which both involved grass fed ribs - the ribs themselves were smaller than what I normally used to buy, the marbling was not great. I did not purchase grass fed for any particular reason related to virtue or preference but rather because they were on special at Whole Foods; I bought some for immediate use and froze the other half which ended up being my second attempt.

 

Fast forward to a couple of days ago - I began attempt 3 before I start receiving comments here, and then adapted and shifted as the comments started rolling in. Over all, the finished product was a huge improvement. Changes or specifications that I think made a big difference:

I used larger (or what I would call "regular sized") conventional / not grass fed ribs. They had good color and marbling.

Starting out, I abandoned all recipes and just went with muscle memory on how I would start a beef bourguignon.  Brown the meat, take it out, saute the diced veg, add some tomato paste and flour, deglaze with wine, etc.

- I browned them for longer than I had in the first two batches. I let them get to a deep, evenly browned crust on all sides.

- I used diced onion and garlic, but large pieces of carrot as intended to remove those towards the end anyway and add "fresh" carrots for the last bit.

- I used a better quality wine - we're not talking expensive by any means, but better than I'd used previously. A cab.

- I used a higher quality beef stock. Store bought, but I simmered it at the lowest temperature with a head of garlic and a pile of fresh sage and thyme for a bit before using.

- I cooked the ribs in my 7.5 qt Staub, in the oven at 250. I did not even touch or look at them for the first 2.5 hours. Previously, I had done stove top on my gas range, and I feel that I got way to fussy with checking them and as such there was a fair amount of temperature fluctuation vs. just an even simmer for an extended time. They cooked for a total of 4 hours, uncovered for the last 45 minutes with some freshly chopped carrots added in to cook up. I allowed them to cool down for about an hour which made removing the fat much easier. I served them with a little gremolata made with parsley and lemon, and a mushroom risotto. Delicious.

 

All in all, the better quality ribs, more thorough sear, controlled cook in the oven, and near - unlimited time to experiment and feel it out led to a much better result than I'd had previously. I got some great tips here. I will be trying them again soon to tweak some things here and there. 

 

[rotuts]

@Victual Vignettes

 

Congratulations .  tasty work.  for a braise , moving to fattier grain finished beef got youy to a better starting point

 

and then you upped the game w all the other canges..