Induction? Pro-style gas? Please help!!!

[rustwood]

@IANSTUART, clearly you are happy with induction, but if you were redoing your kitchen and had the choice, would you do induction again or go with gas? 

 

We are going to be redoing our all-electric kitchen (came with the house) and have been planning on running gas to it (we have natural gas heat).  I was surprised to find that electric seems to be the way to go for ovens these days and now there is a lot of induction buzz so I am reconsidering the gas line.  Neither the pan restrictions nor the wok issue is a deal killer for us.  We currently have a 220V Bosch electric/glass cooktop that was once a high-end model.  It has one high-power/instant element, but we aren't thrilled with the level of control it offers on any of the elements.  Even after many years of using it, finding the right medium or medium-low setting always seems involve more trial and error than it should, certainly more so than the gas elements in our previous home.  I'd be interested to hear if anyone has that issue with their induction hobs.

[IANSTUART]

Rustwood. Unequivocally I would still go with induction. The pan restrictions are really not a problem. I use a lot of le Creuset pots and pans and they are fine and, as I mentioned, as far as I can see gas doesn't really have any advantage over induction for woks. Electric ovens are actually preferred to gas by most cooks, although I would suggest getting a double oven, it makes life a lot easier. I also found that having a lot of lazy susan shelves is a great idea (my kitchen came with six large corner ones and they are great).

 

Don't get any Whirlpool products, I replaced a Bosch double oven with a Whirlpool last year and I have had nothing but problems culminating with a refusal by Whirlpool to honor their warranty. Miele is the best from what I hear but expensive and they no longer make a 27 inch (I have cherry cabinetry that I love and don't want to replace)

 

I had a Jennair electric cooktop that was not much good and the induction tops are much more responsive. I also haven't found any problem with controlling the level. The speed of response, which is a major problem with electric tops, is as fast as gas and cools off much much faster. Induction is also much safer, I had a colleague whose wife was killed when their gas cooker exploded  It is also much easier to clean than gas or electric because spills and stains don't burn into the surface since only the area under the pan is hot. Oh and it heats up the kitchen much less. Lastly, I find it much easier to work around the cooktop when it is induction, you don't have to worry about burning yourself and you can use the rest of the cooktop to cut and serve. I would argue for a five burner top though. It isn't so much that you need all five burners but it allows you to spread three or four pans around more.

[Smithy]

3 hours ago, rustwood said:

We are going to be redoing our all-electric kitchen (came with the house) and have been planning on running gas to it (we have natural gas heat).  I was surprised to find that electric seems to be the way to go for ovens these days... <snip the rest>

 

I'd like to address the gas vs. electric oven issue.  If I had a choice I'd go with a gas oven.  Since I began paying attention to my oven's temperature control, I've learned that its electric elements lead to wild temperature swings: 25F above and below the temperature it claims to be holding.  I can dampen those swings somewhat with multiple baking stones for additional thermal mass and using both circulation ("convection") fans, but my digital baker's thermometer says it still swings +/- 10 to 15F.  This is supposed to be a fairly sophisticated (mid-range, not high-end) unit, and it's only 5 years old.  My trailer kitchens have had gas ovens, and the same thermometer says they hold much more steady temperatures.  It's possible that my oven model is poorer than most at temperature control, but since the heating elements cycle on and off for temperature control I'm skeptical.  I'd need to research a specific model thoroughly before choosing electric when gas was an option.

[teapot]

Well I drove into the big city today to look at induction ranges  today.  I was heading in the direction of the Bosch Benchmark. The benchmark has the "flex zone" to allow you to set a single temp for two burners so you can griddle and such.  What I didn't like about the range was the skimpy oven.  But then the new JennAir convection range caught my attention. Its oven is bigger (6.4 cf instead of 4.6) and the burners are more powerful (the most powerful burner is 3,600 vs 2,400 for Bosch). It has a bridge (like flex zone) plus other appealing features. The price is the same. 

 

I know Jenn-Air was good, then bad and is now, supposedly becoming respectable again. I dunno. This is the company's first foray into induction. It does come with a full two-year warranty (double Bosch's).   

 

Anyone with experience with this Jenn-Air induction range?  

[weedy]

So, due to an inexplicable, and obviously unforeseen, sudden crack in my smooth glass-top electric range, I find myself unhappily range shopping starting tonight.

 

So... is there anyone here who would actually dissuade me from looking at an induction range instead of replacing with another smooth top standard electric??

(gas isn't an option.)

 

if it aids the discussion, I'm hoping to keep this in the $1500 USD range... so I'm not looking at $3000 induction ranges.

but there are a few 1500-1700options apparently.

 

any advice appreciated!

[teapot]

Well I ended up purchasing a KA 36" induction cooktop but it will be another month until it's installed. I can't wait!  I believe I paid about $1300 for mine. There are arguments to be made for gas over induction but I don't think there's much to be said for standard electric over induction...except price and power. I believe you'll need a 240w electrical supply. 

 

[gfweb]

I have limited, but recent, induction experience. Using a small Max Burton unit I found it hard to keep the pan heated evenly. The induction mechanism heats a ring of the pan which must then diffuse outward to heat the whole pan. The result was a scorched sauce and unevenly browned meat.

 

It was a fancy All-Clad pan which I would've thought would conduct better.

 

If this is representative of better units, I think you'll be unhappy.

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by gfweb (log)

[Martin Fisher]

8 hours ago, weedy said:

sudden crack in my smooth glass-top electric range, I find myself unhappily range shopping starting tonight.

 

Can't you just replace the top?

I know a couple parties who have.

One top was pitted, the other was broken when a dummy stepped on it to do some cleaning! 

[dcarch]

1 hour ago, gfweb said:

I have limited, but recent, induction experience. Using a small Max Burton unit I found it hard to keep the pan heated evenly. The induction mechanism heats a ring of the pan which must then diffuse outward to heat the whole pan. The result was a scorched sauce and unevenly browned meat.

 

It was a fancy All-Clad pan which I would've thought would conduct better.

 

If this is representative of better units, I think you'll be unhappy.

 

 

It seems to me that there will be a lot of improvements possible with induction cooktops and cookware which can minimize some of the common annoying pitfalls.

1. By varying the thickness or materials of the cookware bottom and/or the coil geometry of the cooktop magnetic coil, the induction induced "Eddy current" of the cookware can flow in a way that can give better heat distribution. 

2. By applying electronic design similar to PWM (Pulsed Width Modulation) for power tools, the cooktop heating power/temperature controls can be more useful.

3. If you go to youTube, you will find plenty of videos of hobbyists DIY using not too complicated electronics to concoct induction heaters to melt copper, aluminum, etc, not just magnetic metals.

 

dcarch

[Anna N]

2 hours ago, gfweb said:

I have limited, but recent, induction experience. Using a small Max Burton unit I found it hard to keep the pan heated evenly. The induction mechanism heats a ring of the pan which must then diffuse outward to heat the whole pan. The result was a scorched sauce and unevenly browned meat.

 

It was a fancy All-Clad pan which I would've thought would conduct better.

 

If this is representative of better units, I think you'll be unhappy.

 

 

I think the Max Burton is not representative. The Eurodip was only slightly more expensive and in my opinion a much better unit than the Max Burton.  I have had both. Currently I have an induction range and I couldn't be happier and it's pretty darn low end in terms of cost. Mine is a G.E. Profile. I initially bought a floor model but it was missing the levelling legs and it was replaced at the same sale price with a new unit. 

[boilsover]

1 hour ago, Anna N said:

Currently I have an induction range and I couldn't be happier and it's pretty darn low end in terms of cost. Mine is a G.E. Profile. I initially bought a floor model but it was missing the levelling legs and it was replaced at the same sale price with a new unit. 

 

How long have you had it?  A local appliance dealer once told me--in confidence--that no one should expect even better fullsize induction appliances to last more than 5 years. 

[IANSTUART]

Boilsover. Sounds to me as if your "local appliance dealer" has a lot of gas cook tops that he wants to unload. You do realise that induction has been around for decades in Europe? I have never heard of anybody having one wear out. In Europe appliance manufacturers are legally required to honour a five year automatic warranty on all major appliances (unlike the US where Whirlpool, which owns most of the appliance brands, doesn't even honour its one year warranty). If their products didn't last more than five years Bosch and the rest would be out of business. As for the search for a round bottomed  wok that works on gas, or induction, surfaces; there is no such thing. Unless the wok can descend into the flame you will have insufficient surface being heated. I found an electric wok (Breville) for just over $100 that has the element build into the wok itself. It gets up to 500 degrees all over the surface, which I find sufficient for stir frying.

[weedy]

4 hours ago, DiggingDogFarm said:

 

Can't you just replace the top?

I know a couple parties who have.

One top was pitted, the other was broken when a dummy stepped on it to do some cleaning! 

 

replacing the top it seems runs between $300-600, depending on how much is replaced and who does it and some luck in finding the part.

 

at that price, I can replace the range... but then, once I get my head around replacing it, I'd rather it be an actual "upgrade" at that point so I'm willing to go up to that $1500 range

[Anna N]

2 hours ago, boilsover said:

 

How long have you had it?  A local appliance dealer once told me--in confidence--that no one should expect even better fullsize induction appliances to last more than 5 years. 

 Then perhaps I should start worrying because it is five years on the button.

[weedy]

consumer reports rates a Kenmore (!?!) highly in this price range, which surprises me, but I suppose it's worth a look.

 

I don't know how much I trust CR in this context; although CNET liked this model as well.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2017 by weedy (log)

[Anna N]

I thought Kenmore appliances were all re-branded. Am I wrong?

[weedy]

probably?

but I can;t seem to find the same model (by looks) branded by another manufacturer.

 

it looks to me like it's a Frigidaire, but not the same models are available.

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by weedy (log)

[FauxPas]

I would pick induction over regular electric glass-top in a heartbeat. The clean up is so much easier, the speed of heating, the lack of extra heat in warm weather. I can't think of any reason to stay with the regular one. There might be a chance of getting a faulty circuit board or something but that should usually show up within the warranty period.  

 

The Kenmore model you link to is very similar to the one I have in our other house, though mine is a couple of years old. I bought it just before they introduced the newer model and so they reduced the price to $900 or so. It was a great deal. I bought the 5 year extended warranty (which I would very rarely do) because the extra $200 or so would be less than the cost of most repairs and if I don't use the warranty, I can apply the cost of it against a future purchase at Sears. 

 

@weedy, I believe the Kenmore model was (is) actually manufactured by Electrolux. 

 

[FauxPas]

I should add that I bought that Kenmore induction range in Canada. At the same time, they were selling an Electrolux that looked very similar in some ways and the Kenmore looked like a stripped-down version. Still, it had everything I wanted. And I have to say that the broiler on mine works just fine, in contrast to the CR video. One of the rear burners does lack power, but I tend to use it for simmering and it works perfectly in that context. Mine also has a warming area. I've been really pleased with it. 

[dcarch]

13 minutes ago, Anna N said:

I thought Kenmore appliances were all re-branded. Am I wrong?

 

The products are currently produced by manufacturers such as Whirlpool, GE, Panasonic, Sanyo, LG, Bosch, Electrolux, and Mabe Mexico. 

dcarch

[FauxPas]

5 hours ago, gfweb said:

I have limited, but recent, induction experience. Using a small Max Burton unit I found it hard to keep the pan heated evenly. The induction mechanism heats a ring of the pan which must then diffuse outward to heat the whole pan. The result was a scorched sauce and unevenly browned meat.

 

 

I have never used a Max Burton, but I have a single-element Aroma induction model. It's only 1500 watts and really can't compare to the full stovetop elements at all. The Aroma (which I still use occasionally) is underpowered and doesn't heat the outer edges of pans nearly as well as the stovetop ones. 

[quiet1]

From limited experience using a portable induction unit and talking to chefs using portable units at events, between normal electric and induction, I'd go induction in a heartbeat. Just do some research to make sure you get a decent model, same as you'd do with any major appliance, and make sure enough of your cookware is induction-friendly.

 

(You can get a plate of metal to put on an induction burner to allow the use of non-ferrous pans, but of course that loses all the control of the induction. Still, it'd be easy enough to store so I'd pick one up if you do have pots and pans you use occasionally that won't work on induction. For example, the plate method would be perfectly adequate for plopping a large aluminum stock pot of water on top of, if you don't want to replace your stock pot, or for heating the bottom of an aluminum roasting pan so you can deglaze it to pour into a saucepan for sauce or gravy. Those sorts of things.)

[dcarch]

7 minutes ago, quiet1 said:

----------between normal electric and induction, I'd go induction in a heartbeat. ---------------------

 

There can be a big difference between the two.

Let say both are 1,000 watts. All the 1,000 watts from the induction will go into heating up the  cookware.

With resistance heating element, 1/2 of the 1,000 watts is wasted into radiant heat in heating up your kitchen instead of the cookware.

 

dcarch

[boilsover]

4 hours ago, IANSTUART said:

Boilsover. Sounds to me as if your "local appliance dealer" has a lot of gas cook tops that he wants to unload. You do realise that induction has been around for decades in Europe? I have never heard of anybody having one wear out. In Europe appliance manufacturers are legally required to honour a five year automatic warranty on all major appliances (unlike the US where Whirlpool, which owns most of the appliance brands, doesn't even honour its one year warranty). If their products didn't last more than five years Bosch and the rest would be out of business. As for the search for a round bottomed  wok that works on gas, or induction, surfaces; there is no such thing. Unless the wok can descend into the flame you will have insufficient surface being heated. I found an electric wok (Breville) for just over $100 that has the element build into the wok itself. It gets up to 500 degrees all over the surface, which I find sufficient for stir frying.

 

Nope, the dealer carries several induction lines, from $$ to $$$$.  They don't "wear out" as much as there are electronics problems.  When they go, it's likely to be a CATO failure.  And then good luck fixing it, knowing it's on borrowed time.

 

As for mandatory Euro warranties, that's a shared cost, spread out over all buyers, and paid for at time of purchase.

[IANSTUART]

Bolsover. Anecdote is not the singular of data. And "a shared cost, spread out over all buyers, and paid for at the time of purchase" signifies what? As for gfweb,  I don't understand how any induction burner could heat "a ring of the pan which must then diffuse outward". An induction burner radiates an electro magnetic field that vibrates ALL of the the molecules in the bottom of the pan. That is one of its advantages. It doesn't require close contact to heat. I would look at the pans first. I have found that le Creuset and any cast iron pan work perfectly with induction. Try a magnet on the bottom of your pan. If it doesn't stick all over then something is wrong with the pan. Apropos of Kenmore. I bought a five burner Kenmore induction cooktop six years ago when I found that it was actually a Kitchen Aid and have never had a moment's problem. My Jennair and Thermador cook tops were, however, pieces of junk.  Electrolux is a European brand and owns Bosch, Thermador and Gaggenau. However, since Sears labels products from all over it is quite possible that some years ago Kenmore ranges were from Electrolux. Whirlpool owns  Whirlpool, Jenn-Air, KitchenAid, Maytag, Amana, and Roper.

 

As I have mentioned before, I cannot recommend any Whirlpool product given my experience with them. I bought a five year warranty when I installed a double oven from them. Every time I ran the oven cleaning cycle the thermal fuse went and the ovens were locked until I could persuade Whirlpool to honour its warranty. By the third time Whirlpool informed me that "we repair. We do not replace". Then they claimed that the space around the ovens was too close and "so we shall not honour our warranty". Then I found that you can't even sue them because (thanks to the present Supreme Court) they can insist upon arbitration (in Michigan). Miele are about the only high end manufacturer  that gets nothing but raves. Wolf and Viking get terrible reports (as does Sub Zero, which owns Wolf). As for relying upon Consumer Reports, forget it. Their rating of products is based upon their bells and whistles but not (to my consternation) their reliability?