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minas6907

Pâte de Fruits (Fruit Paste/Fruit Jellies) (Part 2)

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gap   

You seem to have moved on from the use of alcohol to loosen the PDF, but FWIW, my understanding is that alcohol increases shelf life but that it is not reflected in the aW reading. (Ie., aW is not the only input into calculating shelf life for a chocolate - it might be the primary driver, but it is not the sole driver)

 

Having said that, other than a "test the chocolate every week" scenario, I don't know how you could evaluate the impact of alcohol on your shelf life.


Edited by gap (log)

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keychris   

someone quite a long time ago on here told me that the amount of alcohol that ends up in a product is so small that the preserving qualities of it are basically zero - can anyone comment?

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As I recall - Wybauw suggests that you need 17-18% alcohol in a ganache to give it an almost indefinite shelf life. That's a crap load of pure alcohol - so it would probably be true that most products wouldn't contain enough to make a huge difference to shelf life.

 

Alcohol will likely increase the Aw reading rather than decrease it. 

 

A standing study is still probably your best way to truly evaluate shelf life - just cause something is microbiologically stable doesn't mean it's any good after a period of time.

 

 

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Jim D.   
4 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

Alcohol will likely increase the Aw reading rather than decrease it. 

 

That is exactly what I discovered when I was adding alcohol in order to make a pate de fruit pipeable.  As gap pointed out a few posts back:

 

1 hour ago, gap said:

my understanding is that alcohol increases shelf life but that it is not reflected in the aW reading.

 

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Jim D.   
1 hour ago, gap said:

You seem to have moved on from the use of alcohol to loosen the PDF

 

No, not at all.  PDF made with Pomona's pectin (or any low-methoxyl pectin) takes a while to set up fully.  The samples that I made this morning are still pipeable as they are, but that will change by tomorrow, and they will require some blitzing, probably with added alcohol.  I think that in actual production it might be best to time the making of a PDF so that it would be down to room temp when it is required for a mold, thus no blitzing needed.

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Tri2Cook   

Somehow this discussion got away from me. I had no idea you'd gone this far with the testing. I really like the idea of less sugar and cooking while still getting good aw readings. I also like the idea of not having to puree with booze because I have a couple of people I give chocolates to for whom alcohol is a definite no. Both recovering alcoholics (my sister-in-law being one of them, she's been off the booze for over 20 years but still takes no chances and I would never do anything that goes against that for her). Does Pomona have a recipe resource somewhere or do they just come with the pectin? I tried google and didn't come up with much. I have lots of low-methoxyl pectin on hand, I'm just wondering if it will work the same in their recipes as long as I also provide my own calcium source. I guess I could buy the Pomona to get the recipes and then try some tests using the LM pectin I already have.

Edit: found the recipe for "jellied fruit candies, low sugar" (Is that the one you started experimenting with?) and it contained a link to the sheet that comes with the pectin.

Edit 2: so I took the recipe and the instruction sheet from their site and I'm going to add what you worked out to make things better and more suitable as a notation. Thank you for your efforts and for sharing the results with us.

Edit 3: two quick questions, the instruction sheet says to use 3/4 - 2 cups sugar per 4 cups fruit or juice. I'm assuming for this use, you're going with the high end? Also, is the 10% sorbitol replacing 10% of the total (doubled) amount of sugar you're using and is it in fact replacing 10% or in addition to the total sugar?


Edited by Tri2Cook (log)

It's kinda like wrestling a gorilla... you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is tired.

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Jim D.   

This is what I do for a PDF with Pomona's.  I am in the process of converting the directions to weight rather than volume measurements, but with purées differing so much in weight, I haven't gotten that far.  So the sugar measurements are in grams, but the others are still in volume.

 

Begin by weighing the pot in which the PDF will be cooked.

 

Measure 4 cups fruit purée (Note: If it is a fruit that also comes in dried form, such as apricot or cherry, I chop about 1/4 of the final volume very finely, making sure it is fairly soft.  Then I fill to the 4-cup mark with purée and heat the fruit and purée slowly so as to soften the fruit more).  Add 2 tsp. calcium water and 1/4 cup lemon juice to the purée and heat to the boiling point.  If you are using fruit juice with no added fruit, Pomona's calls for doubling the amount of calcium water.

 

Meanwhile in a bowl mix the first amount of sugar (400g) and 3 tsp. Pomona's pectin.  If you are using fruit juice with no added fruit, Pomona's says to double the amount of pectin.

 

Whisking constantly, add the sugar and pectin mixture to the purée mixture and cook until the mixture returns to a full boil.  Remove from heat.  Add the second amount of sugar (280g) and 120g glucose.  Weigh the pot with its contents, subtract the initial weight of the pot, then calculate 5% of the weight of the PDF.  Add that amount by weight of powdered sorbitol.  Return the pot to the heat, whisking to make sure the sugar and sorbitol are completely dissolved. Bring back to the boil.

 

The next part of the process can vary somewhat:  If you are looking for a fairly loose final result, you can stop at this point.  If you will add more flavoring, such as a liqueur, to the PDF, boil it an additional minute to take the liquid into account.  If you are seeking a thicker consistency (like a traditional PDF) or if you are using fruit juice without added fruit, cook the PDF a little longer.  You can test the PDF's final consistency by putting a dab on a chilled plate to see how it looks. The helpful thing about this kind of pectin is that if the texture when cooled is not what you want, you can simply heat it up again and cook it a bit longer or you can add a little water or liquor to thin it out.  There are other hints on how to fix things on the Pomona's site

 

Final notes: The sugar must be added in two amounts because apparently Pomona's doesn't jell properly with too much sugar at first, but more can be added later.  I wanted to reduce the second amount, but it turned out that it is this extra sugar and the sorbitol that reduce the water activity (Aw of 0.59 for both apricot and cherry).  Pomona's recommends using lemon juice only for certain fruits that might be dangerous to can because of their low acidity (such as blueberries), but I have found that it really helps counteract the sugar and perk up the flavor and so always use it; supposedly the added acid also helps with safe shelf life.

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MelissaH   
4 hours ago, Tri2Cook said:

Does Pomona have a recipe resource somewhere or do they just come with the pectin?

There's a book called Preserving with Pomona's Pectinir?t=egulletcom-20&l=am2&o=1&a=B00D3KJNJ, by Allison Carroll Duffy. I use the recipes in there for jam and jelly, and they're reliable for me. The chapters with recipes are titles Jams, Jellies, Preserves, Conserves, and Marmalades. No PdF, alas.

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MelissaH

Oswego, NY

Chemist, writer, hired gun

Say this five times fast: "A big blue bucket of blue blueberries."

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Tri2Cook   

Thanks Jim. There are some variations in there from what I had figured out based on their recipes and your posts so I really appreciate the walk-through.


It's kinda like wrestling a gorilla... you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is tired.

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Jim D.   
9 hours ago, Tri2Cook said:

Thanks Jim. There are some variations in there from what I had figured out based on their recipes and your posts so I really appreciate the walk-through.

Some variations came from exchanges with Pomona's staff.  I lowered the amount of pectin to get something less firm than a traditional PDF.  I tried adding the dried fruit, which gives a stronger flavor and also means less pectin is needed (but the method also works without the fruit--I made cherry with just juice the first time).  I did not continue to post the results of my experimentation this past summer since there did not appear to be any interest on eG in the minutiae of my trial and error attempts on a rather arcane subject.

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Tri2Cook   
8 hours ago, Jim D. said:

Some variations came from exchanges with Pomona's staff.  I lowered the amount of pectin to get something less firm than a traditional PDF.  I tried adding the dried fruit, which gives a stronger flavor and also means less pectin is needed (but the method also works without the fruit--I made cherry with just juice the first time).  I did not continue to post the results of my experimentation this past summer since there did not appear to be any interest on eG in the minutiae of my trial and error attempts on a rather arcane subject.


My apologies that I lost track of the discussion. I'm very much interested and I appreciate that you took the time to dive back into it with us.

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It's kinda like wrestling a gorilla... you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is tired.

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Jim D.   
On 7/11/2016 at 5:59 PM, Jim D. said:

I remain puzzled at Kate Weiser's pipeable purées (see photos earlier in this thread), especially the vibrant colors.  Could they possibly be PDF?  When she starts shipping again (at the end of the summer), I may have to purchase a box to see what I can determine.

 

 

Just wanted to report that finally I did purchase a box of Kate Weiser's chocolates. I bought 15 pieces and made a point to include all that had PDF. Those were:  grapefruit with cashew praline, cherry with Dulcey almond praline, strawberry with white chocolate and basil, apricot with lavender dark chocolate ganache, raspberry with dark chocolate ganache.

 

First, the chocolates are beautiful, almost like paintings. I assume the outsides were mostly hand-painted cocoa butter because they didn't look airbrushed and also there were substantial variations between the photos on the enclosed guide and the actual product. They are on the small side, but that statement comes from someone who prefers chocolates on the large side (I like more than one bite). There is no question they are as delicious as they are beautiful. Some flavors are a bit muted and, like many chocolates, the description helps discern the flavor. The key lime bonbon is outstanding--no wonder the website suggests that if the customer wants to order an entire box of those, it's OK--("make a box of all Key Lime Pies - we won't judge you"), although I must confess that the lime ganache is paired with "graham cracker ganache," and I didn't taste graham crackers.

 

But the PDFs are the point of this post: They are quite good. Aside from the grapefruit, the taste really hits you, and there is no question what the fruit is. The texture is soft but not runny--the PDF layer does not melt into the other layer of the bonbon--but it's not the texture of a fully set PDF. So, as others have deduced, it may be a finished traditional PDF that has been put in a blender or it may use less pectin and therefore not be fully set. Whatever the method, it's delicious and offers a great contrast to the other layer. I would have conducted a water activity test (since shelf life is a question with somewhat liquefied PDFs in a bonbon--what was done to get them soft?), but there was not enough PDF in each piece to run the test.

 

For the record, the box of 15 cost $35, 2-day shipping was $21 (all from my "research budget," of course!). If you think the price is high, someone just sent me an ad for chocolates from Madison, Wisconsin, that are $2.60 each.

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Bentley   
57 minutes ago, Jim D. said:

 

Just wanted to report that finally I did purchase a box of Kate Weiser's chocolates. I bought 15 pieces and made a point to include all that had PDF. Those were:  grapefruit with cashew praline, cherry with Dulcey almond praline, strawberry with white chocolate and basil, apricot with lavender dark chocolate ganache, raspberry with dark chocolate ganache.

 

First, the chocolates are beautiful, almost like paintings. I assume the outsides were mostly hand-painted cocoa butter because they didn't look airbrushed and also there were substantial variations between the photos on the enclosed guide and the actual product. They are on the small side, but that statement comes from someone who prefers chocolates on the large side (I like more than one bite). There is no question they are as delicious as they are beautiful. Some flavors are a bit muted and, like many chocolates, the description helps discern the flavor. The key lime bonbon is outstanding--no wonder the website suggests that if the customer wants to order an entire box of those, it's OK--("make a box of all Key Lime Pies - we won't judge you"), although I must confess that the lime ganache is paired with "graham cracker ganache," and I didn't taste graham crackers.

 

But the PDFs are the point of this post: They are quite good. Aside from the grapefruit, the taste really hits you, and there is no question what the fruit is. The texture is soft but not runny--the PDF layer does not melt into the other layer of the bonbon--but it's not the texture of a fully set PDF. So, as others have deduced, it may be a finished traditional PDF that has been put in a blender or it may use less pectin and therefore not be fully set. Whatever the method, it's delicious and offers a great contrast to the other layer. I would have conducted a water activity test (since shelf life is a question with somewhat liquefied PDFs in a bonbon--what was done to get them soft?), but there was not enough PDF in each piece to run the test.

 

For the record, the box of 15 cost $35, 2-day shipping was $21 (all from my "research budget," of course!). If you think the price is high, someone just sent me an ad for chocolates from Madison, Wisconsin, that are $2.60 each.

 

"field research" is extremely important :)  Thanks for the report.  I've been meaning to order her chocolates.  If you really want to bust your R&D budget, try Stick With Me Sweets.  Around $3.60 each.  But they do look amazing. 

 

BTW for those in the Dallas area, I saw on FB that Kate Weiser now offers bonbon making classes at her shop. 

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If it's ok, I'd like to hijack the thread back to a traditional PdF and my troubles :laugh:  We bought a jar of pectin last summer from AUI, and it worked ok for a few flavors but it didn't set as firmly as I would prefer but we didn't get a lot of orders for Pdf so our interest waned a bit.  Then since Christmas, we've had orders for assorted mignardises and I got a lot of Boiron purees (local distributor).  It's been nothing but trouble (guava doesn't set up At All), raspberry set up but just barely and it was frustrating for the staff making it so I got in some apple pectin and that made things far worse.  Completely and utterly ruined a batch of blackberry, cassis and another flavor that I can't remember using the apple pectin.  On Saturday we got in an order from AUI and they are now selling the Sosa line from Spain and the rep suggested we use their Fruit Pectin NH so I got a jar.  The staff pulled out a Mandarine Orange for me so I could make a batch this morning before having to leave for an event; but they didn't realize they needed to pull a Pear as well (the Boiron recipes specify using Apricot or Pear as a base for some flavors like Passionfruit, Mandarine, kalamansi...) anyway.  I went back tonight to make it.  At one point I was ready to fling the pot into the trash - it was only 325 gm of pear, brought to a boil, then adding sugar/pectin, and then in stages adding a total of 1550 gm of sugar (and after that is incorporated, you add the glucose then 1000gm of warm Mandarine puree).  That is so much sugar for the little that was in the pot and I struggled after only adding a third of the sugar and ended up scorching some of the sugar (I was using an induction).  It was a nightmare but I kept stirring and then in desperation because it needed more fluid added the glucose before all the sugar was added. It all came together in the end; even though I forgot the tartaric acid (fortunately I remembered that as I was pouring it into the pan and put it back in the pot and brought it back to 225 and then added the acid). The rep said that the Sosa fruit pectin is thermo-reversible so I knew putting it back on the heat wouldn't mess things up.  It set up really well in an hour so I'm not expecting any problems when I cut it up tomorrow.  What I noticed is that the Boiron recipes suggest the use of "pectin E440" and this Sosa product has (among other things in it) "pectin e44011" and now I want to know more about that.  Can anyone elaborate please?

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I can't comment on the pectin E440 - the NH pectin that I have is for making glaze - but I did have a batch of apple pectin that was actually made for jam and was useless for PDF. The apple pectin that I have from Louis Francois works well in PDF.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

I can't comment on the pectin E440 - the NH pectin that I have is for making glaze - but I did have a batch of apple pectin that was actually made for jam and was useless for PDF. The apple pectin that I have from Louis Francois works well in PDF.

 

 

I didn't want the Pectin NH and I told the rep that; she checked with the corporate pastry chefs and was told that's what to sell for PDF..... the apple pectin I got (from the same distributor as the Boiron) is from Pastry Star and normally I won't buy anything from that brand (I've been disappointed too many times in the past) and now that you say it, Kerry, I strongly suspect it's for jam!

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On 3/5/2017 at 9:36 PM, JeanneCake said:

I didn't want the Pectin NH and I told the rep that; she checked with the corporate pastry chefs and was told that's what to sell for PDF..... the apple pectin I got (from the same distributor as the Boiron) is from Pastry Star and normally I won't buy anything from that brand (I've been disappointed too many times in the past) and now that you say it, Kerry, I strongly suspect it's for jam!

Pastry Star apple pectin - "Acts as a thickener for glazes and fruit sauces. Essential for making soft, spreadable jams."

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DianaB   

I appreciate that this topic hasn't been active for a while. Also, on reading the more recent contributions much focus has been on perfecting PDF for use in other confections.  Like @JeanneCake I'm hoping for further advice on PDF as a 'stand alone' sweet.  @gfron1 and others very kindly helped me a year or so ago and I managed to produce my first successful PDF as a result, reported earlier in this thread.

 

Just back from spending time in France with friends I have cherries that I grabbed from their tree on Wednesday that need using without delay.  Some are already rotting so I'm thinking of making puree with any that are still mould free later today.  Four trees were absolutely laden with fruit, in itself odd because birds often make short work of stripping a tree that hasn't been netted.

 

I still have the pectin bought a year ago for the first experiment - @JeanneCake I can understand a little of your frustration on the different pectins, I had also bought NH before getting advice here that it wouldn't do for PDF.  The company that sold me the NH had no other pectins and they had assured me it would be ideal!  Having already bought other products from them I had trusted them and made the purchase.  My pack of NH is still unopened.

 

I also now have the tartaric acid I was missing previously. 

 

As I am still very much at the beginnings of PDF making any views on starting the process with fresh cherries would be very welcome.

 

image.thumb.jpeg.362a928b8a6880949be918c06d8570a8.jpeg

 

My bowl of cherries.

 

 

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I'd cook with a tiny bit of water just until softened - run through a food mill to get purée - add up to 10% sugar. Freeze if you aren't going to use right away (in packages of the right amount for a single batch of PDF).

Then sub your purée for the purchased type in the Boiron recipes 

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DianaB   
42 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

I'd cook with a tiny bit of water just until softened - run through a food mill to get purée - add up to 10% sugar. Freeze if you aren't going to use right away (in packages of the right amount for a single batch of PDF).

Then sub your purée for the purchased type in the Boiron recipes 

 

Many thanks Kerry,

 

I have just finished taking the stones out and picking out the few cherries already rotting.  I have 1.23kg fruit without stones, stalks or leaves.  As I completed the task I thought I had wasted my time taking the stones out.  Traditional clafoutis recipes keep the fruits intact to maximise taste.  I will tie the stones in a muslin square in hope that some of the flavour can be captured...

 

image.thumb.jpeg.36161eb7ae1487f1de67f0ce5718ac6a.jpeg

 

My bowl of cherries deconstructed 

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14 minutes ago, DianaB said:

 

Many thanks Kerry,

 

I have just finished taking the stones out and picking out the few cherries already rotting.  I have 1.23kg fruit without stones, stalks or leaves.  As I completed the task I thought I had wasted my time taking the stones out.  Traditional clafoutis recipes keep the fruits intact to maximise taste.  I will tie the stones in a muslin square in hope that some of the flavour can be captured...

 

 

Good plan!

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So pate de fruit is like the headache of confectioners.

 

pectins

now on the market you have a crap ton available (Louie Francois is for me the most reliable source)

NH - is for confit, glaze, and I use this for chocolat PDFs ,..

yellow - Apple pectin based with a product that slows the setting

pectine  - this is ideally the one to use

apple - works however sets fast - better for jams and more

 

purees by nature contain 10% of sugar ( often invertz)

 

cook pdf to 106c minimum

 

acide is important even in acidic fruits. 20 g of solution per kg (citric acid 100% / hot water 100%)

sugar - 110% minimum of weight of purée

glucose - 20%

 

mix the pectins and first sugar first and stir well. Let set for 20 min then start cooking i

for the PDFs in bonbons reduce the amount of sugar by 30% or pectin by 30%.

 

good luck

 

 

 


Edited by Alleguede (log)

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DianaB   

Cherries - a final instalment 

 

As planned I attempted to transform my cherry puree into PDF following the advice that had worked well for me previously and which is reported earlier in this thread.

 

Unfortunately although I made sure to get the pate to 107c (took an age) the chilled product tasted great but wouldn't hold its form once the frame was removed.

 

Reluctant to waste the ingredients, in particular the cherries which are the last that will be had from that particular orchard (it belonged to parents of a friend, Dad died a couple of years ago and Mum has moved to a smaller place, the family finally has a buyer for the farm where the orchard is situated) I decided to try piping the semi firm pate into moulded chocolates.

 

Taste wise these are amongst the best chocolates I have ever made.  I am not at all experienced in chocolate making, I have the Choc Doc's tutorials (many thanks @Kerry Beal) but my time is hugely limited and I hadn't attempted chocolates since the end of last year.  Even then I cheated, I made 'rochers' which are far more forgiving in terms of appearance than moulded pieces.

 

I had some Valrhona Guanaja from my last Vente Privé buy.  The round bitterness of that combined with the sweet bitterness of the cherry paste was more or less taste perfection.  Although I enjoy the challenge of making chocolates I'm not usually bothered about eating them.  Unfortunately for my wardrobe I can eat these in abundance!  The remaining pieces have gone off to be shared with my husband's colleagues this morning so temptation is no longer taunting me.

 

I have some of the PDF left.  It has been refrigerated throughout and stored in a thick piping bag so protected from air.  I also have some of the chocolate left.  I plan to make a last batch and I hope to find a way of packing them so that they will survive a postal journey to France and the lady who allowed me to pick her cherries.  

 

Below is the first batch.  I had stored them in the fridge.  Not by a long way amongst the most beautiful looking chocolates on the forum but the flavour was beyond anything I had imagined.  

 

image.thumb.jpeg.245aff2cd2248acad83612f13c11dab0.jpeg

 

The polycarb mould is the first I bought and I have really tried to look after it.  No dishwasher, no soap.  I've cleaned it with v hot water and v soft cloth.  Despite all the care directed at it I noticed a crack in the corner of one of the cavities when I was drying it the other day which is annoying.

 

At least I found a way to use up my too soft PDF, thanks to those who have already posted here about using PDF in chocolates.  I'm not sure that I would have thought of it if I hadn't read posts on this thread.  

 

 

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On May 17, 2016 at 3:39 PM, Kerry Beal said:

Yellow pectin in Europe might be labelled apple pectin or vitpris.

 

 

 

So is apple pectin the same as yellow pectin, and will it work to set a PDF?  I feel like I've read conflicting info on the interwebs and I just wanted to make sure that my apple pectin will work.

 

Second question is about how to not have weeping cubes of PDF (I know, I know - stop being so mean to them :D).  I've never had success with this and they're always a wet mess by day 2.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, pastryani said:

 

So is apple pectin the same as yellow pectin, and will it work to set a PDF?  I feel like I've read conflicting info on the interwebs and I just wanted to make sure that my apple pectin will work.

 

Second question is about how to not have weeping cubes of PDF (I know, I know - stop being so mean to them :D).  I've never had success with this and they're always a wet mess by day 2.

 

The million dollar question - I've had apple pectin made for jam and apple pectin made for PDF. Do you have a picture of the container of your apple pectin.

 

Weeping cubes have happened to me if the right brix has not been reached. Are you using a refractometer to check the brix or just the temperature?

 

 

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