Cooking with clay on an electric cooktop

rancho_gordo · December 21, 2015

I think moving to a home with gas is the best option!

Jaymes · December 21, 2015

13 minutes ago, rancho_gordo said:

The Japanese use these great butane indoor stoves right on the table for communal eating out of a donabe pot: Butane stove

I think that's exactly like the one I ordered. I'm really happy about the whole thing. And looking forward to getting some char on my pot and Rancho Gordo beans in my tummy.

Jaymes · December 21, 2015

14 minutes ago, rancho_gordo said:

I think moving to a home with gas is the best option!

That's a great idea. Why didn't I think of that? Thanks!! I'll start looking immediately and, when I find something workable, send you the paperwork so you can go ahead and qualify for the loan.

Naturally, I won't take advantage. I'll find something small that won't impact your budget too much.

And of course it'll have a nice guest room, so you'll get something out of it, too.

Anna N · December 21, 2015

The cooking time for one butane cartridge is given as 2-8 cooking hours on the product page.

boilsover · December 21, 2015

16 hours ago, Jaymes said:

Do you have a ballpark estimate as to about how many I'll go through for several hours' worth of cooking on low?

Well, a rule of thumb from backpacking is that the 1/2 pound canisters will give you 1-2 hours burn time on high (15KBtu). So double that for 1-pounders, and maybe double that again for idling.

I use the 20-pounders of propane for my frame. They last a long time, but are guaranteed to run out just when you need them not to. Always have spares.

Jaymes · December 21, 2015

44 minutes ago, boilsover said:

Well, a rule of thumb from backpacking is that the 1/2 pound canisters will give you 1-2 hours burn time on high (15KBtu). So double that for 1-pounders, and maybe double that again for idling.

I use the 20-pounders of propane for my frame. They last a long time, but are guaranteed to run out just when you need them not to. Always have spares.

This is what I ordered.

8oz. You talk about larger ones, but the burner I ordered is very small. Wouldn't it be tricky to try to hook up larger canisters? Those beans will take several hours to cook, simmering on low. From what I'm reading here, I probably should plan on having at the ready two of these smaller canisters per pot of beans. And probably should go ahead and order more now.

Right?

Edited December 21, 2015 by lesliec
Added eG-friendly Amazon link (log)

Okanagancook · December 21, 2015

I have several clay pots and a gas stove. I purchased one of these: http://www.creativecookware.com/Commercial-Cookware/Ibili/Heat-Distributing-Plates-p4099/

I actually use it a lot to have a uniform heat especially for long slow simmers. I usually use it when cooking in my clay pots for safety (I'm a chicken) and the even heat.

Anna N · December 21, 2015

I believe boilsover is talking about propane not butane. You cannot safely use anything but the 8 ounce canisters that look like a spray can of hairspray. Unless you plan on boiling the beans as opposed to a gentle simmer I doubt you will need more than two but be on the safe side and have some spares. You will soon figure out from experience what you need.

brucesw · December 21, 2015

Are the canisters interchangeable between different makes of burners? They all look alike, both burners and canisters. If so, you could pick up supplies from any of the retailers I mentioned above. Unless there's a hurricane on the way.

boilsover · December 21, 2015

2 hours ago, Jaymes said:

This is what I ordered.

8oz. You talk about larger ones, but the burner I ordered is very small. Wouldn't it be tricky to try to hook up larger canisters? Those beans will take several hours to cook, simmering on low. From what I'm reading here, I probably should plan on having at the ready two of these smaller canisters per pot of beans. And probably should go ahead and order more now.

Right?

Yes, that's right. These style hotplates usually cannot mount up larger canisters--they typically have a sleeve the canister fits into, preventing use of a larger tank. Depending on what you get and how resourceful/handy you are, it would be possible to adapt them to take larger.

My advice is that, if you're actually going to be cooking beans (as opposed to reheating them), you scale up a bit. Here's an inexpensive 2-burner that will let you hook up to a larger LP tank that will run all day. http://www.harborfreight.com/dual-burner-propane-stove-35559.html

This is what I use.

I run a 6' hose to my 20-lb bottle.

The single/8oz hotplates are basically rechauds. Like the mini "kitchen torches", they'll likely drive you batshit crazy changing canisters.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited December 21, 2015 by lesliec
Added eG-friendly Amazon link (log)

Anna N · December 21, 2015

@boilsover

I would never ever suggest propane be used or stored indoors.

Jaymes · December 21, 2015

19 hours ago, boilsover said:

Yes, that's right. These style hotplates usually cannot mount up larger canisters--they typically have a sleeve the canister fits into, preventing use of a larger tank. Depending on what you get and how resourceful/handy you are, it would be possible to adapt them to take larger.

My advice is that, if you're actually going to be cooking beans (as opposed to reheating them), you scale up a bit. Here's an inexpensive 2-burner that will let you hook up to a larger LP tank that will run all day. http://www.harborfreight.com/dual-burner-propane-stove-35559.html

This is what I use.

I run a 6' hose to my 20-lb bottle.

The single/8oz hotplates are basically rechauds. Like the mini "kitchen torches", they'll likely drive you batshit crazy changing canisters.

Just my 2 cents.

Yes, that does look pretty wonderful, but my circumstance is that I live in a small apartment with a small balcony. Not sure that larger appliance would work for me.

Also, there are plenty of folks that will tell you that, at this late date, I don't need to worry about becoming "batshit crazy." That train left Nutsville Station long ago.

And I was in the club car.

________________

Edited December 22, 2015 by Jaymes (log)

boilsover · December 21, 2015

29 minutes ago, Anna N said:

@boilsover

I would never ever suggest propane be used or stored indoors.

So I couldn't sell you a propane-fired refrigerator, hot water heater, freezer, furnace or range? http://non-electric.lehmans.com/search#w=propane

Obviously, ventilation plays a role, but millions of 4-burner builder-grade gas ranges (propane and NG alike) are used every day with no venting at all, and only rarely do local jurisdictions require hoods. Would you transport a 20-lb bottle in your car? All codes allow that, too.

Edited December 21, 2015 by boilsover (log)

palo · December 22, 2015

24 minutes ago, boilsover said:

So I couldn't sell you a propane-fired refrigerator, hot water heater, freezer, furnace or range? http://non-electric.lehmans.com/search#w=propane

Obviously, ventilation plays a role, but millions of 4-burner builder-grade gas ranges (propane and NG alike) are used every day with no venting at all, and only rarely do local jurisdictions require hoods. Would you transport a 20-lb bottle in your car? All codes allow that, too.

I believe AnnaN was referring to large external tanks that are stored/used indoors.

That being said, can someone point out the dangers of using a gas fueled appliance indoors. As well, the inherent dangers of a larger than 8 oz fuel cylinder, from a fact based perspective as opposed to what we've all "heard"

p

Edited December 22, 2015 by palo (log)

Anna N · December 22, 2015

I think you are stretching a bit. We are talking about a small tabletop burner that runs on butane to allow Jaymes to use her newly acquired beanpot. I have lived in more than one residence with a propane fuelled range. The propane source was stored outside and the range was properly installed by a licensed gasfitter. Sorry but I think you are trying to compare apples and oranges. And when I transport a 20 pound propane tank in my car full or empty it is with the windows open regardless of the weather.

rancho_gordo · December 22, 2015

I wanted to add the clay holds the heat, so after you bring the beans to an initial boil, you just need a very low to moderate heat to maintain a simmer. The pot does the work, especially if you cook with the lid on and fill the lid with water.

boilsover · December 22, 2015

6 minutes ago, Anna N said:

I think you are stretching a bit.

Well, I'm talking about an alternative that would allow Jaymes to cook one pot of beans without stopping to change out a little 1/2 pound spray can.

I'm not suggesting anyone place their 350G propane tank inside their house. Certified gas lines, fittings and sealants are easily and safely assembled and tested for leaks. And a 15k butane-canister rechaud is the same as a 15k gas hob when it comes to combustion byproducts. If you, she or anyone else is uncomfortable with any of that, by all means stick with the butane rechaud and keep buying canisters by the case lot.

What frightens you so? Is it the exhaust fumes? The chances of fire?

boilsover · December 22, 2015

6 minutes ago, rancho_gordo said:

I wanted to add the clay holds the heat, so after you bring the beans to an initial boil, you just need a very low to moderate heat to maintain a simmer. The pot does the work, especially if you cook with the lid on and fill the lid with water.

Actually, it's the water that holds most of the heat, but you are correct that once the liquid reaches a boil, the flame can be lowered to a simmer.

rancho_gordo · December 22, 2015

The pot will stay much hotter than a metal pot after the fire is turned off. It will keep simmering much longer than it would with a metal pot. I would think that the clay is what's different.

Anna N · December 22, 2015

1 hour ago, boilsover said:

Well, I'm talking about an alternative that would allow Jaymes to cook one pot of beans without stopping to change out a little 1/2 pound spray can.

I'm not suggesting anyone place their 350G propane tank inside their house. Certified gas lines, fittings and sealants are easily and safely assembled and tested for leaks. And a 15k butane-canister rechaud is the same as a 15k gas hob when it comes to combustion byproducts. If you, she or anyone else is uncomfortable with any of that, by all means stick with the butane rechaud and keep buying canisters by the case lot.

What frightens you so? Is it the exhaust fumes? The chances of fire?

And Jaymes is perfectly free to follow your suggestion. I am not in the least interested in engaging with you in questions of safety.

boilsover · December 22, 2015

1 hour ago, rancho_gordo said:

The pot will stay much hotter than a metal pot after the fire is turned off. It will keep simmering much longer than it would with a metal pot. I would think that the clay is what's different.

If what you're saying is that stoneware is a better insulator than metal, you're absolutely right.

But if you're saying a clay pot holds more heat than a metal pot, we need to be clear about the two pots being compared. A material's ability to store heat is called its specific heat; it's expressed as the amount of energy (usually a calorie, Kcal or Joule) necessary to raise a given weight (usually a gram or Kg) by a degree of temperature (usually Celsius). Water's specific heat is 1.00 cal/gram per degree C. Clay varies, but usually falls between 0.20 and 0.33. By comparison, Aluminum is 0.22, and cast iron is 0.11. So you are also correct that clay will store more heat per fixed unit of weight.

Note that we then have to adjust these numbers for density, because wall thicknesses of pots may (or may not) be similar, but the weights of such pots can be much different. Kaoline clay has a density of 961 Kg/m3. Aluminum's density is nearly three times greater at 2712, and cast iron's is 6800-7800 or 6-7x greater. You can do the math, but when you do, you discover that the heat-holding ability of a clay pot of the same size and thickness as a metal pot, isn't much different.

Then you have to account for how efficiently a material moves heat--its conductivity. And them you need to consider how easily it exchanges its stored heat with its surroundings--its thermal diffusivity adjusted for specific heat. Clay has terrible conductivity (about 1 W/mK), whereas aluminum's is 200x greater, iron's is 55x, and copper's is 400x! So if the idea is to take heat from an external source and apply it to food in the most efficient way possible, clay's not a good choice.

After the heat is shut off, clay will contain the disproportionately large volume of heat stored in your beans' water quite well. But you could do the same thing (actually better) if you put a metal pot in an old-time hay box oven. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haybox

I actually like clay pots. At least in ovens.

Edited December 22, 2015 by boilsover (log)

**Chris Hennes** · December 22, 2015

Eh, the Mixteca pot wins on looks alone. You can probably make good beans in a clean boot. The clay gets serious style points.

dscheidt · December 22, 2015

22 hours ago, Thanks for the Crepes said:

Jaymes,

I've not cooked with butane, but the propane canisters for my Coleman stove and lantern don't last long at all. They are very expensive to cook and light with, but during a power outage, I'm so grateful to have them, and always keep them stocked. Once an emergency hits, fuel canisters, batteries, candles and almost everything pertinent disappears from the shelves in no time. Weirdly, most folks who probably do not cook at home often, which they are now forced into doing, don't go for the paper plates and plastic tableware which will be critical to comfort and survival without hot water, so usually you have a while to scarf these up, but I keep an emergency stock of those too.

At one point during Hurricane Fran in 96 my brother, who lived three miles away and had had power for a week when we still didn't said to me, "At least you can look forward to a low power bill." I told him I'd just today spent over $200 on ice, propane, charcoal, batteries and candles, after a new supply began flowing in after a dearth and many folks had power already.

I'm still hot for the Asian cook stove, but I suspect it will not be that cheap to operate. I could be wrong, and hope I am. Also it might be challenging to use the model you posted outside. Those wind shield wings that come around the sides and lock in on the Coleman propane stove are critical for operation in even a gentle wind.

The little propane burners used in restaurants for omelet stations and what not are about 10K to 15K BTU/hr burners. They use, typically, 8oz butane cartridges. A pound of butane is 21K BTU. Depending on where you buy the cartridges, and in what quantities, the cost from about a buck a piece to a few bucks. (I've never seen a bigger butane burner, and would be surprised if they're available. There are limits on fast you can draw butane out of the can before it freezes.)

Also, you can get an adapter hose that allows you to run your coleman propane stove and lantern from a 20lb (grill size) propane tank. Much more economical than little tanks, particularly if you have a local source that fills them rather than just swapping them out. An even larger tank is more economical (as there is usually a labor fee built into the pricing, and price of the propane is a small fraction of the cost. At today's propane spot price ($0.56 gallon), there's about $2 worth of propane in a grill tank.)

haresfur · December 22, 2015

I'd still just go with a diffuser and the electric. I don't understand why there would be an advantage to gas.

My caution above relates to a recall of many of those small gas burners here. I tend to be pretty cavalier about these things but think you should know enough to make a considered decision.

boilsover · December 22, 2015

4 hours ago, Chris Hennes said:

Eh, the Mixteca pot wins on looks alone. You can probably make good beans in a clean boot. The clay gets serious style points.

Hmmm, it doesn't look tippy to you? I can see it down in some coals, but not balanced on a spider.