The Bread Topic (2015-2016)

[Panaderia Canadiense]

2 hours ago, Smithy said:

I need help getting a better rise in this loaf.  This is my sourdough rosemary bread:

 

It looks pretty good from the top, but the side view shows that it's er, a bit vertically challenged.

 

As I see it, the tendency to spread and the lack of oven spring are both issues.  Should I:

• Increase the oven temperature still further and/or preheat longer?  
• Put that pan of water in during the preheat step so the bread goes into a steamy oven?
• Forget about the banneton and shape it more tightly by hand? (A batard, perhaps?)
• Use a bread pan?
• Reduce the hydration?
• Reduce the oil?  (Does the oil tend to relax the dough?)
• Change something else about this formula?

...or just resign myself to having a tasty but flattish loaf?

 

Comments, questions and suggestions are welcome.

 

 

 

I'd start by trying a pan.  The higher hydration in the loaf is going to naturally make it want to spread rather than stand, but the crumb looks so nice that I wouldn't want to diminish it by dropping the hydration level any.  Oil will also relax your dough (it's the main reason why focaccia is normally a flatbread) so you can cut that back a bit, but I wouldn't go overboard.  Otherwise, it's gorgeous and I'd definitely still eat it!

[paulpegg]

I would reduce the hydration to make a firmer dough. Fifty percent whole wheat is a bit much in my book. Try 25 or 30%. I preheat at least an hour at 450F and add a pan of boiling water when the bread goes in. When i bake in a dutch oven I put the oven in the oven (sounds stupid I know) when i turn the oven on. I throw in a handful of ice cubes with the dough and put the lid on at add some steam inside the dutch oven.

 

Anyway, your loaf looks delicious to me.

[DianaB]

With  regards Smithy's Sourdough Rosemary Bread, I had exactly the same problem when I started using techniques in the Forkish book, this loaf was also a mix of whole wheat and white bread flour as I recall. It tasted fine but whatever flour I used at that time, the results were similar.

 

More recently I have stopped using a banneton and reduced hydration slightly. Because the breads I'm making at the moment aren't comparable to those I was making a year ago I can't be certain which of the variables has improved my results but I think it is hydration.  Somebody told me I was over proofing these loaves but I don't think that was the problem.

 

Yesterday, my first ever sandwich loaf (pain de mie). I was delighted with this, I really didn't expect it to turn out so well at the first attempt.  It was all gone within an hour of baking!  Will definitely try again to make sure it wasn't just beginners luck. 

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2016 by DianaB
Wrong photo first time around! (log)

[Anna N]

@DianaB

 So am I understanding you correctly? You took a Forkish recipe,  reduced the hydration somewhat and then shaped and baked it in a loaf pan?

[cakewalk]

Very nice sandwich loaf, DianaB. Did you use the lid? It looks a bit rounded on top. 

[liuzhou]

Earlier today, I was in my local baking supply store and noticed that they are stocking Gold Medal bread flour from the USA.  Not being American, I know nothing about this flour other than that it is a leading brand.

 

It is a bit more expensive* than the unbranded high gluten flour I have been using with (mostly) satisfactory results. I'm wondering if any of you baking wizards have any thoughts on whether I should give it a try. Or any other comments.

 

I still have enough flour for a loaf or two, but will have to restock soon.

 

* ¥7.75/500g as compared to ¥5/500g. Not cripplingly expensive.

[DianaB]

1 hour ago, Anna N said:

@DianaB

 So am I understanding you correctly? You took a Forkish recipe,  reduced the hydration somewhat and then shaped and baked it in a loaf pan?

 

Hi Anna,

 

I haven't made myself clear in my last post, apologies and to anyone else I confused!

 

The first pic is around a year old, I had just started making bread after reading of Forkish, on this forum I think.  I made a mistake in that I bought the Kindle version of his book, I have since found that for me, while Kindle is great for novels, I need to be able to flick back and forth with a cookery book. Rather than buy the same thing again in paper form I found Eric Kayser's 'Bread'. I know the book has its critics on this forum but every recipe I have made from that book has worked superbly for me.  The book coincided with me acquiring a starter for liquid levain.  Following advice on a blog I respect enormously (c'est ma fournée - in French) I drastically reduced the amount of bakers yeast added to the recipes but they still have between 2-5g  alongside usually 100g levain.

 

I do understand that many people want to make bread without addition of any yeast beyond their levain. At my stage in the learning process I'm just happy to have recipes that work for me. I tried M. Kayser's own 'signature' bread a few weeks ago in Paris and found it superb. The sandwich I bought from his shop was whole grain, it would have kept me going for a week had I eaten it all but the flavour was wonderful. So we're his pistachio éclairs but I digress..... 

 

So, the sandwich loaf baked yesterday is Kayser's recipe.  I used a tin without a lid after reading that if you can get the second rise right it shouldn't dome too much. In fact the shape didn't alter at all during cooking. I'm tempted to buy a lidded loaf tin, it would be nice to have square slices, at the moment though I seem to be spending a small fortune on chocolate moulds so I'll make do for now.

 

I hope this resolves any confusion I caused with my earlier post. I'm really enjoying catching up with you all on eGullet, it has been a good while since I found time to read the forum but I am so enjoying many of the topics and learning a great deal.  Thanks to all for sharing your beautiful creations sweet and savoury.

Edited April 1, 2016 by DianaB
Careless typing (log)

[Anna N]

@DianaB

 

 Thanks very much for the clarification.  

[Anna N]

37 minutes ago, liuzhou said:

Earlier today, I was in my local baking supply store and noticed that they are stocking Gold Medal bread flour from the USA.  Not being American, I know nothing about this flour other than that it is a leading brand.

 

It is a bit more expensive* than the unbranded high gluten flour I have been using with (mostly) satisfactory results. I'm wondering if any of you baking wizards have any thoughts on whether I should give it a try. Or any other comments.

 

I still have enough flour for a loaf or two, but will have to restock soon.

 

* ¥7.75/500g as compared to ¥5/500g. Not cripplingly expensive.

My instinct is to say that this early in your breadmaking career I would tend to change as little as possible.   Get to really learn your ingredients and your method  before you try anything new.  

[ElainaA]

Naan - posted also on the dinner thread as they were made to do with last night's curried lentil soup.

 

[kbjesq]

@Smithy  If you like everything but the shape, I'd try baking it in a loaf pan, and see what happens.  That way you at least have something to compare it to - a floppy loaf is sad. I always bake in a steamy oven, but it sounds like you are doing that already? You could also call the baker's hotline (free) at King Arthur Flour company for help troubleshooting -  they're super friendly in my experience. I'll be curious to learn how this problem gets solved. 

[Smithy]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.  I'll try a pan next and report back.  @kbjesq yes, I am trying a steamy oven to the extent that I can without putting out(!) the gas flame with the steam blast.  Maybe the ice cube trick will work, or maybe I can find another location for the hot pan to which to introduce water, so the steam is less likely to blow out the flame. 

[paulpegg]

4 hours ago, liuzhou said:

Earlier today, I was in my local baking supply store and noticed that they are stocking Gold Medal bread flour from the USA.  Not being American, I know nothing about this flour other than that it is a leading brand.

 

It is a bit more expensive* than the unbranded high gluten flour I have been using with (mostly) satisfactory results. I'm wondering if any of you baking wizards have any thoughts on whether I should give it a try. Or any other comments.

 

I still have enough flour for a loaf or two, but will have to restock soon.

 

* ¥7.75/500g as compared to ¥5/500g. Not cripplingly expensive.

American Bread  flours such as Gold medal have 12.5 - 14.5% protein. Unbleached All purpose flours have 10 -12% protein. Protein produces gluten in your bread and higher gluten levels increase strength and chewiness in your bread. Low protein flours are generally used in cakes and other soft products. Do you know the protein level of the flour you are using? Try this link Chinese flour guide. You could always buy a bag and try it either 50-50 or 100% to see if you notice a difference.

[liuzhou]

3 minutes ago, paulpegg said:

American Bread  flours such as Gold medal have 12.5 - 14.5% protein. Unbleached All purpose flours have 10 -12% protein. Protein produces gluten in your bread and higher gluten levels increase strength and chewiness in your bread. Low protein flours are generally used in cakes and other soft products. Do you know the protein level of the flour you are using? Try this link Chinese flour guide. You could always buy a bag and try it either 50-50 or 100% to see if you notice a difference.

 

Thank you. I know what gluten is and what it does. The gluten level of the flour I am buying is listed as 13.5%.

 

I speak and read Chinese and, interesting as the site you link to is, most of those flours are unavailable outside major cities such as Beijing or Shanghai..

 

You may note that the only flour stores they list are in Beijing which is  1,852 km / 1,151 miles away.from me.

[kbjesq]

@liuzhou I'm just a home baker, but IMHO "Gold Medal" flour is nothing special. I've compared it side-by-side with "Walmart brand" flour and couldn't discern any difference (other than price) -  FWIW 

[Anna N]

 

 

A loaf of Forkish Saturday bread (I know it's only Friday!). This will go off with a family member shortly (they have been keeping watch at the hospital over a gravely ill relative). 

 

Hoping it brings a bit of cheer and some nourishment. 

 

 

[paulpegg]

There might be addife

4 hours ago, liuzhou said:

 

Thank you. I know what gluten is and what it does. The gluten level of the flour I am buying is listed as 13.5%.

 

I speak and read Chinese and, interesting as the site you link to is, most of those flours are unavailable outside major cities such as Beijing or Shanghai..

 

You may note that the only flour stores they list are in Beijing which is  1,852 km / 1,151 miles away.from me.

I thought that might be the case. The only difference you might find is the fineness of the grind. There is probably not much difference between your local flour and the Gold Medal.

[keychris]

 

because why not?

Three sourdough rye loaves in the oven as we speak too

[Anna N]

 I am not one to colour outside the lines but this morning something came over me and I decided to combine the deli rye bread from Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day with the folding technique of Forkish. It has a lovely crispy crust, a fairy light crumb and lots of flavour from the rye and the caraway seeds. It is probably not a very practical bread as it is just too delicate for sandwiches and not chewy enough for dunking.  But that has not stopped me from eating three slices  and barely resisting another trip to the kitchen .  

 

 

[shain]

Bread with part whole spelt and a little oat bran. Flavored with malt extract, toasted sesame, flax, aniseed, fennel seeds, black pepper and orange peel. Apx. 77% hydration.
Sprayed with water and baked on an iron plate at 230dC for 30 minutes and another 15 minutes at 210dC. The crust was quite crispy and slightly chewy. Crumb is relatively light, chewy and medium moist. The spices are very aromatic, but are gentle flavor wise. I felt that the scoring on the bread was OK, but sadly i got not much of an ear. 

I made some ghee earlier, so I had some browned milk solids that were very nice when served warm on this bread, with a sprinkle of salt.

[kayb]

Back when I first started baking bread, one of my experimental loaves was one that had a good deal of cornmeal in it. I took a hankering for a cornmeal loaf, so I commenced looking for recipes, and found this one. It intrigued me. Anyone tried it? It's on my agenda for Monday or Tuesday.

[ElsieD]

23 minutes ago, kayb said:

Back when I first started baking bread, one of my experimental loaves was one that had a good deal of cornmeal in it. I took a hankering for a cornmeal loaf, so I commenced looking for recipes, and found this one. It intrigued me. Anyone tried it? It's on my agenda for Monday or Tuesday.

 

Well now, that looks like good eats.  I love anything corn.

[kbjesq]

53 minutes ago, kayb said:

Back when I first started baking bread, one of my experimental loaves was one that had a good deal of cornmeal in it. I took a hankering for a cornmeal loaf, so I commenced looking for recipes, and found this one. It intrigued me. Anyone tried it? It's on my agenda for Monday or Tuesday.

Haven't tried that one, but when I want a bit of cornmeal in my bread, it's Anadama Bread time at my house! Which reminds me, I haven't made any in awhile. Maybe that's on my to do list for tomorrow.  

[liuzhou]

I just  pulled this out of the oven. My first attempt at olive bread. So far, so good. Now a nervous wait till it cools down enough to cut into.it and check the crumb. I will report back.

 

[liuzhou]

I plucked up the nerve to open up the olive bread for scrutiny and I'm delighted! It worked!

 

 

 

Next time, add some rosemary.