Cooking with "Modernist Cuisine" (Part 2)

[Chris Hennes]

Can I substitute generic Sodium Tripolyphosphate directly for the Nutrifos 088 in the Modernist sausages, or is some conversion necessary (or perhaps impossible)?

[lesliec]

Good question, Chris.

Something I noticed very quickly is that the recipes often call for a particular brand of alginate or whatever. The appendix of the Khymos recipe collection has a table of what different manufacturers call the same chemical, but I don't remember seeing anything to suggest that (say) 1g of a Texturas product is equivalent to 0.9g or 1.1g of the same thing from somebody else. I'd be interested to see such a thing if it exists.

Or perhaps Nathan will tell us there's no difference and we should stop worrying.

[Chris Hennes]

I'm particularly concerned about the Nutrifos in this case because my impression is that it's specifically manufactured to have a particular texture, presumably to aid in mixing into the sausage. So perhaps the substitution can be made, but with different mixing technique.

[LoftyNotions]

Can I substitute generic Sodium Tripolyphosphate directly for the Nutrifos 088 in the Modernist sausages, or is some conversion necessary (or perhaps impossible)?

Chris,

From the Parametric recipe on 3-237, "Polyphosphate blend refers to Nutrifos 088 or a similar proprietary blend..."

I haven't done any of the modernist sausages yet, but I'd think the phosphates are going to perform the same function they do in traditional sausages.

If it was me, I'd try it. Let us know how it turns out.

I might be too cavalier about this, but my feeling is that if I try to get the exact brand name compound every time I'm never going to get anything cooked.

Here's a link to a Nutrifos information sheet: Nutrifos Link

Best of luck,

Larry

[rotuts]

to go back to the labels for the vaccum bags:

I also put a number on the bags with the Sharpie and keep a note-book with more details on each "Experimental Bag" and add notes as I eat them

so far Im still on Meats

extraordinary what Ive gotten for $1.99 a lbs!

[KennethT]

back to the risotto discussion - when parcooking the rice, how much liquid should you use? In the parametric recipe, it doesn't specify liquid amounts for parcooking, and in the procedure, it says to boil the rice in liquid, then drain (I assume that toasting the rice in fat first is assumed and not specified). Also, do you save the drained liquid (which should have released starches in it) and use it for finishing? Lastly, if making the risotto with broth (I typically use a mild garlic broth for mine) do you use water for the parcook, and then broth for finishing, or broth for the whole thing? Thanks

[nathanm]

We have a policy in the book of mentioning exact brand names we used in case it matters.

In many cases there are multiple grades of what is ostensibly the "same" product. This is particularly true for hydrocolloids. As an example, agar is available in many grades from food ingredient manufacturers. You can also buy agar at the supermarket, and at Asian markets. They are all similar at some level but can have very different properties. It's a bit like calling for "beef" in a recipe when different cuts all have different properties. Fillet mignon is not the same as flank steak.

Different grades of gels won't always work the same. So, if you want to replicate one of our recipes exactly, then use the exact brand we use. Or, try another brand, but be aware that there may be some variation. With a bit of experimentation most other sources can be adapted.

Some products are proprietary blends - as an example Nzorbit is a product of National Starch. It is a type of tapicoa malodextrin, but in that case there are MANY types and you really must use the proprietary product to get the same result. The Texturas line of products, for example, has a gellan blend that is a mix of high acyl and low acyl, so it can't be used to subsitute for pure high or pure low acyl gellan.

That said, you often can subsitute. Nutifos 088 is essentially just pure sodium tripolyphosphate (STPP), so in this case there ought to be very little if any difference between it and other food grade STPP.

Some phosphates are a mixture of STPP and SHMP (sodium hexametaphosphate). In most meat recipes that also ought to work the same way. The only point where I would worry about the composition being critical are in using phosphates for sequestering ions for gelling (see Gels chapter).

So, yes try the substitution. It really ought to work.

[Chris Hennes]

Awesome, thanks for the tips.

More questions (of course), this time on the subject of pasta:

First, the semolina pasta recipe on p 3•382 lists its yield as 450g, but with input ingredient weight of over 600g. Is the loss due to the extruder?

Second: the herb-embedded pasta veil (p. 3•383) has a 12 hour refrigeration step. What is the purpose of that step?

Finally, I'm struggling to understand the Spaghetti Carbonara recipe on p. 3•384: I was going to make it tonight but realized I needed a number of clarifications before I proceed. The yield is listed as 1.5kg (30 portions), but as near as I can tell the only way to get that high would be to not drain the pasta, otherwise the input ingredients don't add up that high. But it doesn't look to me like a no-drain recipe. Is that yield number leftover from a previous scaling of the recipe? With only 100g of dry pasta and perhaps 250g of cheese gel, I don't see how to get 30 servings. Can anyone who has seen this dish comment on how it's plated? It also appears from the photo that the size of the cheese gel rectangle isn't actually 2" x 4", but perhaps more like 1" x 4". I guess this doesn't really matter much, but at this point I got lost in the details.

[Paul Kierstead]

I didn't cook with Modern Cuisine tonight. However, I did use their sous-vide recommendations for a hamburger (hurriedly purchased ground beef from the supermarket since my KA died, so no grinder). I didn't happen to have any liquid nitrogen on hand, but I did deep fry the burgers for a minute as recommended. I topped with some left-over cheese from the MC mac'n'cheese, and slid it under the (very very hot) broiler for a very short period. They were delicious, and I loved that MC gave me excellent guidelines and not just a protocol (recipe). In a way, that is what I bought the book for. Not that it is going to stop me from going all nuts with some of the recipes

[johnder]

Chris how did you find the salt level in your soup?

[Chris Hennes]

Chris how did you find the salt level in your soup?

Spot on: I used the levels called for, and no adjustment was required at the end, I just served it as is.

[Phaz]

Just did Mango sorbet. No fancy Ingredients. Just mango and a simple syrup pureed then put into a ball jar and Vacced . These ball jars were just too tall to go in my vp112 so I used the jar attachment with my foodsaver universal lid.

Here you see just how much the liquid expands. I wonder if a foodsaver has enough power to do this technique.

Before

After

They are in the freezer now I'll comment on taste and texture later.

I'm really interested in this.

Does the stuff need to be frozen right away or can you wait a bit? I want to do some of this for Easter and am wondering what the best way to go about it is. Would I have to do it all there? Could I make it and jar it here then just freeze it there? Could I freeze it here and transport it (20 min drive) and throw it back in the freezer?

Basically how does the 'shape' of it hold up over time?

[Calories]

So far i've made a few fun recipes out of the book but i am waiting on some ingredients that i've ordered. one of which has been made is the mushroom puree for the mushroom omelette and it is definitely incredible - in quebec it is impossible to find morelles and other mushrooms listed, so the puree turned out a light brown color... to darken it to black i added some squid in that i have in my freezer at all times.. it does not have a strong taste but does the job to match the color in the book!

my next step, which usually is the easiest... is to cook the omelette... but i need a combi oven in the recipe... how can i make a regular home convection oven into a combi oven for that recipe? Or is the were any modifications i can do to my present oven that would allow it to be combi when i want it to be? When we make bread at home we use a spray bottle of water to add the humidity but i highly doubt that i could attain the 100% humidity needed in this recipe.

-Nathalie

[Msk]

Just did Mango sorbet. No fancy Ingredients. Just mango and a simple syrup pureed then put into a ball jar and Vacced . These ball jars were just too tall to go in my vp112 so I used the jar attachment with my foodsaver universal lid.

Here you see just how much the liquid expands. I wonder if a foodsaver has enough power to do this technique.

Before

After

They are in the freezer now I'll comment on taste and texture later.

I'm really interested in this.

Does the stuff need to be frozen right away or can you wait a bit? I want to do some of this for Easter and am wondering what the best way to go about it is. Would I have to do it all there? Could I make it and jar it here then just freeze it there? Could I freeze it here and transport it (20 min drive) and throw it back in the freezer?

Basically how does the 'shape' of it hold up over time?

Since this is the first time I did this I have few real answers for you. I can however make some guesses based on the experience.

As long as the jar is under vacuum, the liquid remains in its expanded state. Warming it up may threaten this though I don't know for sure. You could certainly make these and freeze them and transport in a cooler with Ice I think.

The big issue here with making alot of these is getting the ball jars in your chamber vac, mine were too big so I was relegated to making 1 every 5 hrs because I only had one of those foodsaver lids. If you had smaller jars that would fit in the vac, or did the foodsaver ball jar sealing trick you should be ok.

It does "hold up" reasonably well and they suggest keeping it at room temp for 5 minutes before serving which makes me think a 20 min drive in a cooler is ok. I would make them ahead, freeze them overnight, then bring in a cooler full of ice/water. then throw them in the freezer there until 5 mins before dessert goes out.

Mike

[jmolinari]

Chris, i believe you're searching for sodium tripoly phosphate....i assume the goal of this (haven't looked at what recipe you're trying to make) is to maintain juicyness. You can likely substitute (in appropriate amounts) STPP with Amesphos, which is a mix of different phosphates and it comes in a usable amount (1 lb for like $11) from The Ingredient Store.

[KennethT]

Over the next week I'll be prepping for a dinner next Saturday. The menu so far, consists of:

Risotto with asparagus/morels and mushroom jus

Beef cheeks with bone marrow potato puree, potato gnocchi and rare beef jus

Pork^5: Chorizo french toast, pulled pork patty, sliced pork belly, crisped skin and bacon water jus

All proteins will be cooked SV in ziplocks (no chamber machine yet); beef then probably finished with propane torch, pork in a hot pan with rendered lard.

I recently ordered a faucet aspirator (capable of 28.5"Hg vacuum, supposedly - we'll see!) I figured it was a cheap way to get some vacuum stuff going while I'm designing my GhettoVac chamber. I may throw a mango sorbet in the middle as a palette cleanser if the vac works ok....

[Phaz]

Since this is the first time I did this I have few real answers for you. I can however make some guesses based on the experience.

As long as the jar is under vacuum, the liquid remains in its expanded state. Warming it up may threaten this though I don't know for sure. You could certainly make these and freeze them and transport in a cooler with Ice I think.

The big issue here with making alot of these is getting the ball jars in your chamber vac, mine were too big so I was relegated to making 1 every 5 hrs because I only had one of those foodsaver lids. If you had smaller jars that would fit in the vac, or did the foodsaver ball jar sealing trick you should be ok.

It does "hold up" reasonably well and they suggest keeping it at room temp for 5 minutes before serving which makes me think a 20 min drive in a cooler is ok. I would make them ahead, freeze them overnight, then bring in a cooler full of ice/water. then throw them in the freezer there until 5 mins before dessert goes out.

Mike

Thanks for the tips! I wonder if this kind of thing would work for this (and the VP112).

[roygon]

The books are great, incredible actually, but now that I have them I have a new request for the next volume in the series - "Plated Dishes for Dummies".

I suspect a fairly large chunk of the people buying the set are home cook enthusiasts who really want to use the techniques to transform the things they are cooking now to make them taste better, come together quicker etc. There are a bunch of recipes and parametric charts that help with this and if you look at the things that most people who are posting are actually attempting, it is these types of recipes. Carrot Soup, Mac and Cheese, Stocks etc. I think that there is too wide a gap between the information and the majority of the samples leaving a lot of room for failure for this type of person. I'm not one to shy away from failure since I truly believe that if you aren't failing then you aren't learning but at the same time having a lot more everyday type meals to use as ways to ratchet up your skill set if you are not up there yet would be very helpful and also take away a lot of the stigma that MC may have.

So, the idea would be more along the lines of taking typical dishes and transforming certain elements to achieve something greater. One of my favorite dishes is a simple chicken picatta. So one of the recipes would take this and perhaps sous vide the chicken, swap flour for some other starch + baking powder for the sear and the creation of the picatta sauce without using fond. Maybe Chicken Jus, Stock, Lemon and Xantham gum with those fabricated capers you created in one of the recipes in the book. Of course it would reference the various volumes when going through the recipe so that you can still understand why you are doing the things it is suggesting. I can now picture the MC version of this very easily because I have been reading these books non stop for the last week but still I just wish there were more "Mac and Cheese" type dishes out of the box and I think that could have been done without dumbing down the set for the large group of people who want MC exactly as it is.

Obviously I don't really expect a MC for Dummies volume but maybe the blog could be used for this type of thing? A lot of people assume MC is all about foam dipped in nitrogen but if you blog about more down to earth food with simpler MC preparations then this would not only help people like me but also help MC capture a wider audience for the second printing.

Last point in this long post is that everything I have tried so far has been excellent and when people come over the books never get put down

rg

[Msk]

Thanks for the tips! I wonder if this kind of thing would work for this (and the VP112).

My guess is it would, though you need to make sure it says in the freezer long enough depending on the insulation of the cannisters (my gut tells me 5 hrs is long enough though). What also would be really cool, is if you put the puree in squeeze bottles and pumped out a design on the bottom of those that creates a beautiful pattern as it "expands". Swirl of raspberry in the mango sorbet for example.

[Chris Hennes]

I started in on the "Spaghetti Carbonara" from page 3•384 this morning (the one based on Jean-Françoise Piège's recipe, not Wylie Dufresne's). So far I've infused the cream, cooked the pasta, and laid out the spaghetti strands.

Let me tell you, it takes tremendous willpower at this point to not grab a fork and just flat eat this stuff. It turns out that cream infused with garlic and bacon makes a might fine spaghetti sauce. Who knew?

[jsmeeker]

Is that COOKED spaghetti, all neatly line up?

[Chris Hennes]

Yes.

[RDaneel]

I made some cheddar/Gruyere blend for MM&C (modernist mac & cheese) last night, and continue to be impressed with how well this technique works.

Did you just follow the normal mac & cheese recipe and sub in the gryuere?

Phaz, yes, I varied only the original cheeses, and otherwise followed the recipe. I did the "main" cheese as sharp Cabot cheddar and the "secondary" cheese as gruyere. It came out tasting great. The cheddar dominates, so I might vary the blend a bit more towards the gruyere, or maybe use gouda. I have about 3 or 4 more dinners worth of cheese in the freezer in 160 and 320g portions for when I want to cook 2 or 4 portions.

I had the idea (no idea if it is original or not) to use smoked cheese, so I think I'm going to get smoked gouda and use that with cheddar or even a smoked mozzarella. Something about smoky MM&C sounds awesome.

[LoftyNotions]

I made some cheddar/Gruyere blend for MM&C (modernist mac & cheese) last night, and continue to be impressed with how well this technique works.

Did you just follow the normal mac & cheese recipe and sub in the gryuere?

Phaz, yes, I varied only the original cheeses, and otherwise followed the recipe. I did the "main" cheese as sharp Cabot cheddar and the "secondary" cheese as gruyere. It came out tasting great. The cheddar dominates, so I might vary the blend a bit more towards the gruyere, or maybe use gouda. I have about 3 or 4 more dinners worth of cheese in the freezer in 160 and 320g portions for when I want to cook 2 or 4 portions.

I had the idea (no idea if it is original or not) to use smoked cheese, so I think I'm going to get smoked gouda and use that with cheddar or even a smoked mozzarella. Something about smoky MM&C sounds awesome.

I did a smoked mac & cheese for guests last weekend. It was a big hit. I used smoked cheddar and gouda, each with about 2-1/2 hours of apple wood smoke. Definitely worth doing.

Larry

Edited for punctuation.

Edited April 16, 2011 by LoftyNotions (log)

[Chris Hennes]

So, as I mentioned above, tonight I made the "Spaghetti Carbonara" for dinner, from p. 3•384. It was pretty involved, and doesn't bear a whole lot of resemblance to the classic (except in terms of flavor).

The process begins with bacon:

Garlic (sliced thin and blanched):

And Romano (the recipe calls for parmesan, but I didn't have enough. Plus, I like Romano...):

This is sealed with cream and cooked sous vide for two hours to infuse:

Then you cook some spaghetti:

And strain the sauce over it:

Here's where it starts to get weird (yes, OK, the Italian food lovers started tearing their hair out at "cream"... here's where the rest of you start.) You take the sauced pasta and, one strand at a time, lay it out to form a mat:

That gets popped in the fridge while you make the cheese. This is a brick of parmesan (I just barely had enough for the recipe, hence the use of Romano above) that is emulsified and gelled with whole milk: so it still tastes like a brick of parmesan, nothing else.

You also make a gelled egg yolk by cooking a yolk sous vide for 35 minutes. I simply cooked it in a piping bag, rather than a sous vide pouch and transferring to squeeze bottle. Of course, this means I omitted the straining step.

Now, you create the portions. This is done by wrapping the pasta around a log of parmesan:

Now, to reheat. I had a sneaking suspicion that these were going to be fragile, so I actually improvised a steamer setup that let me steam them on serving utensils (spatulas, in this case):

Here's where things went a little wonky: I oversteamed the packets, so the cheese gel started to melt (which it's not supposed to do):

I had a bit of trouble transferring the packets to the plates still (I should have greased the spatulas), but they plated up OK I thought. I served it with a piece of bacon:

Overall the dish was rather successful, but I will make some changes for next time. In my attempts to match the photos in the book more closely I just sort of eyeballed the size of the parmesan bricks, but the parmesan was too assertive, I had too much and threw the balance off. Next time I think I'd probably make the logs 1/2" x 1/2" square cross-sections, and maybe even give them two wraps of pasta instead of one. Something else I am going to do is just serve the pasta alone as a meal: the infused cream was a really nice sauce on its own.