The Sourdough Starter Topic

[Owtahear]

Eureka!  I think I figured it out.   I was feeding a 1:1 ratio of flour to water, and not 1:1/2 ratio!!  Stupid me.

[paulraphael]

18 hours ago, scott123 said:

Sourdough barely exists in the pizza world.  The handful of commercial entities successfully working with natural leavening devote their entire lives to mastering it- not days, not months... years, and, at the end of all that torture, the end result really isn't that different from commercial yeast (perceptible sourness is acid, and excess acid can be damaging to gluten).

 

 

I think you're overstating your case here. Like Mitch, making great pizza at home has eluded me. But it's because my oven is nowhere near up to the task. The sourdough took just a few months to get right. 

 

For what it's worth, all the great pizzas I've ever had were naturally leavened. Maybe I'm spoiled.

[scott123]

17 hours ago, Smithy said:

 

Can you (or anyone else) explain this, please? I haven't run across this bit of information before, and I'd like a chemical explanation.

 

This covers the basics of gluten fairly well:

 

http://www.cookingscienceguy.com/pages/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Explaining-Gluten.pdf

 

It goes into how calcium and magnesium in hard water, along with salt, strengthen gluten.  But it doesn't go into why they strengthen gluten.  This is why:

 

https://modernistcuisine.com/mc/gluten-how-does-it-work/

 

"Salt provides more than flavor—it strengthens gluten bonding. Although the gluten proteins naturally repel one another, the chloride ions in salt help them overcome that repulsion and stick together."  

 

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2010/issue79/

 

"Adding a small amount of salt can further strengthen the gluten network; ions from the salt cluster around the charged portions of the glutenin proteins and prevent them from repelling each other, which allows glutenin molecules to cluster more closely together."

 

So, the two major components of wheat protein, glutenin and gliadin, don't, on their own, create the gluten framework- they don't create the structure of bread.  They form the gluten framework by bonding- physically (through kneading and rising, basically molecular abrasion) and chemically. The chemical aspect that encourages bonding is electrical, making any and all ions critical to the process.  This is why both no salt and soft water based breads lack structure.  Distilled water, because the solids have been removed, is the softest water possible.

 

So, without ions, without electrolytes- the sodium and chloride in the salt, and the calcium and magnesium (and other dissolved minerals) in the required hard-ish water, you don't get the necessary gluten strengthening that forms good crumb structure.

[scott123]

18 hours ago, weinoo said:

It does seem as if now, much more equipment is available for the amateur pizzaiolo  to try and replicate the taste and texture of great pizza at home, with consistency. Certainly if you have a backyard, and certainly if you're willing to have your kitchen get very warm, especially in summer.

 

True.  I spend countless hours trying to get beginning pizza makers to focus on their oven setups, but it's really just a drop in the bucket.  Baking steels continue to grow in popularity, but they aren't for everyone (especially not urban apartment dwellers with broiler drawers) and unscrupulous manufacturers have made tremendous inroads with cheap fake baking steels- thin steel sheets that are actually worse than stones.

 

I can completely understand the home cook who just wants to have fun making pizza and prefers avoiding the hassle of complexity.  But to spend so much time and energy on such a fruitless endeavor- when bake time reduction offers such tangible success... it's soul crushing.

[Smithy]

On 7/21/2020 at 12:36 AM, scott123 said:

 

This covers the basics of gluten fairly well:

 

http://www.cookingscienceguy.com/pages/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Explaining-Gluten.pdf

 

It goes into how calcium and magnesium in hard water, along with salt, strengthen gluten.  But it doesn't go into why they strengthen gluten.  This is why:

 

https://modernistcuisine.com/mc/gluten-how-does-it-work/

 

"Salt provides more than flavor—it strengthens gluten bonding. Although the gluten proteins naturally repel one another, the chloride ions in salt help them overcome that repulsion and stick together."  

 

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2010/issue79/

 

"Adding a small amount of salt can further strengthen the gluten network; ions from the salt cluster around the charged portions of the glutenin proteins and prevent them from repelling each other, which allows glutenin molecules to cluster more closely together."

 

So, the two major components of wheat protein, glutenin and gliadin, don't, on their own, create the gluten framework- they don't create the structure of bread.  They form the gluten framework by bonding- physically (through kneading and rising, basically molecular abrasion) and chemically. The chemical aspect that encourages bonding is electrical, making any and all ions critical to the process.  This is why both no salt and soft water based breads lack structure.  Distilled water, because the solids have been removed, is the softest water possible.

 

So, without ions, without electrolytes- the sodium and chloride in the salt, and the calcium and magnesium (and other dissolved minerals) in the required hard-ish water, you don't get the necessary gluten strengthening that forms good crumb structure.

 

I thank you, both for the summaries and the links to deeper explanations. I have a couple of observations and questions, after reading and considering this material.

 

1. On the one hand, my bread courses have all said that ideally salt should be added after the flour, water and yeast (or sourdough starter) have been allowed to sit together, because salt interferes with yeast growth and development. Yet these articles say that salt helps with the gluten formation. That seemed contradictory at first, but after some thought I think I've resolved the apparent conflict. Salt is necessary but timing is also important because of two opposing effects on two very different factors: yeast growth and gluten development. Do I understand those two issues correctly?

 

2. I'm surprised at the statement that a pH of 5 - 6 is ideal for gluten development, and this makes me wonder what commercial bakers do, if anything, to compensate. City water is generally controlled to around a pH of 7 (maybe slightly less) and the EPA drinking water standard is a pH range of 6.5 - 8.5. Do bakers simply give the gluten extra time and/or mechanical activity to compensate? Perhaps the optimal gluten development pH isn't that important because there are workarounds. 

 

Further insights would be welcome.

[scott123]

12 hours ago, Smithy said:

1. On the one hand, my bread courses have all said that ideally salt should be added after the flour, water and yeast (or sourdough starter) have been allowed to sit together, because salt interferes with yeast growth and development. Yet these articles say that salt helps with the gluten formation. That seemed contradictory at first, but after some thought I think I've resolved the apparent conflict. Salt is necessary but timing is also important because of two opposing effects on two very different factors: yeast growth and gluten development. Do I understand those two issues correctly?

 

That is the inescapable conclusion to the late salt adder's logic.  But not everyone's on board the late salt train.  The observational evidence is substantial that, while salt definitely slows yeast activity in dough, adding it earlier in the mix doesn't seem to be detrimental to the yeast in the slightest.  Yes, salt is anti-fungal, so, while I wouldn't personally add salt to the yeast and water (I know many who do), as far as yeast impact goes, I see no difference between fully mixed and proofing dough, and mixing the flour and salt into the water at the same time.

Another aspect to late salt is that, while a 70-80% hydration bread dough can comfortably dissolve salt added after the flour has hydrated a bit, your typical 60%ish pizza dough can have issues.  It's not like a salt covered pretzel. Most people don't enjoy hitting a pocket of undissolved salt in dough.  It can also cause problems with stretching and launching.

 

In a high water preferment where the water activity might accelerate the yeast's anti-fungal properties and where you want fermentation to run wild, sure, no salt there.  But, once you're making the final dough, I think late salt is both unnecessary and a potential can of worms.

 

Now, late oil... if you're working with an exceptionally rich dough... maybe 8% oil or more,  then that can seriously impair gluten development unless added later.

 

12 hours ago, Smithy said:

2. I'm surprised at the statement that a pH of 5 - 6 is ideal for gluten development, and this makes me wonder what commercial bakers do, if anything, to compensate. City water is generally controlled to around a pH of 7 (maybe slightly less) and the EPA drinking water standard is a pH range of 6.5 - 8.5. Do bakers simply give the gluten extra time and/or mechanical activity to compensate? Perhaps the optimal gluten development pH isn't that important because there are workarounds.

 

I was a bit surprised by that 5-6 pH level statement as well so I did some research.

 

https://www.cargill.com/salt-in-perspective/salt-in-bread-dough

"all doughs, not just sourdoughs, contain acidifying bacteria which contribute to the bread¹s flavor"

"A typical dough has a pH low enough (approximately 5) for the gluten protein to carry some positive charge."

 

And

 

https://www.foodelphi.com/bread-making-presentation/

 

"Initially, dough has a pH of about 6.2, and during fermentation, the values are about 5.76 or 5.67"

 

Also

 

http://www.fao.org/3/a-au108e.pdf

 

"Fermenting dough has a pH between 5 and 6"

The second link has no author listed, but, the other information in that presentation seems to reveal a fairly extensive level of technical knowledge.  The third link (FAO/United Nations) seems to be reputable and that doesn't reference sourdough at all.

So... neutral water + slightly acidic flour (6ish) + time = pH between 5 and 6.  In other words, and, if you're not sitting down, you might want to be , all bread is technically sourdough, it's just that natural leavening ramps up bacterial activity and combines it with acid friendly strains of wild yeast.

I also believe carbonic acid is a bit player in the pH equation, from the CO2 dissolving in the water fraction of the dough (most likely in small amounts). Dough isn't seltzer (between 3-4 pH), but I think it's a small step in that direction.

Edited July 23, 2020 by scott123 (log)

[Wholemeal Crank]

So I was listening to As it happens, and the other day they replayed this story:

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-thursday-edition-1.5240203/what-does-bread-from-4-500-year-old-egyptian-yeast-taste-like-rich-with-overtones-of-brown-sugar-1.5240514

 

Basically, the story describes adventures in sourdough recovery from ancient Egyptian pottery (done under reasonably controlled conditions) and notes that they used barley and einkorn to bake bread with it because they did not have modern wheat in ancient Egypt.  My most recent batch of sourdough starter had again gone awry after my first baking, and I needed to make another batch anyway, so I decided to see what happens if I follow the basic process from Peter's book in terms of quantity and proportions of flour and water and timing, but substitute barley and einkorn wheat for the flours (50:50 fresh home milled barley:einkorn, just because I could not find a more detailed reference yet).  Basically, I'm curious to see if the starter generated is more like a regular wheat sourdough or different, because of the different grains, even if they were grown likely somewhere in the US or Canada, thousands of years and miles from ancient Egypt.

 

The starter has been quick to develop and I've now got it ready to bake, and mixed up 1 part starter to 2 parts 50:50 water:flour, and will save some for my future starter and fill out the rest with more of the mixed flour, water and salt to make the first loaves.  

 

I've played with barley a little in unleavened flat breads (makes a nice breakfast 'toast' with peanut butter or jam), and a fraction of barley in a more conventional yeasted bread, but this is different, and I'd love to see an actual recipe suggesting proportions of the different grain flours and .  But the signal to noise ratio in trying to google this is poor, because the original story from 2019 was very widely published and republished in every sort of new outlet, and the proliferation of sourdough baking and blogs during pandemic lockdown further overwhelms search results.  

 

Have any of you here seen an actual recipe shared/published by Blackley, Love, or their collaborators?

[Acelestialobject]

I wanna bake sourdough cinnamon rolls.

So I'm looking for a simple fool proof sourdough starter technique.

This is gonna be my FIRST TIME making it and it seems to take too long and looks really complicated.

 

Any simple tips/recipes/techniques will help ;))

[ElsieD]

 

[Smithy]

There's also

 

[Acelestialobject]

2 hours ago, ElsieD said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Smithy said:

There's also

 

So technically if i add 2 tbsp of AP Flour and 2 tbsp water, stir and keep for a day thats the beginning of my starter?? O.O ( btw thank you for the links...Nice to see others experiences with starter )

[Midlife]

14 hours ago, Acelestialobject said:

 

So technically if i add 2 tbsp of AP Flour and 2 tbsp water, stir and keep for a day thats the beginning of my starter?? O.O ( btw thank you for the links...Nice to see others experiences with starter )

‘Technically’ yes, but that wouldn’t make very much starter. You don’t need a whole lot but you do need more than that. 

[Acelestialobject]

1 hour ago, Midlife said:

‘Technically’ yes, but that wouldn’t make very much starter. You don’t need a whole lot but you do need more than that. 

Is there any way I can avoid 'feeding' it everyday?? Can't I keep it in the fridge and feed it every other day in the beginning stage??

[Smithy]

5 hours ago, Acelestialobject said:

Is there any way I can avoid 'feeding' it everyday?? Can't I keep it in the fridge and feed it every other day in the beginning stage??

 

I'm not experienced enough to be sure, but I don't think it will work. At best it will slow the development of your starter. At worst it might stop it altogether. Why do you want to delay it? Why not wait until you're in a position to actually grow the starter and use it?

[Acelestialobject]

21 minutes ago, Smithy said:

 

I'm not experienced enough to be sure, but I don't think it will work. At best it will slow the development of your starter. At worst it might stop it altogether. Why do you want to delay it? Why not wait until you're in a position to actually grow the starter and use it?

Hmm..I don't want to delay it but it seems like it takes a lot of time for different people. For some it takes two weeks and for some even longer. I kinda dont wanna risk spending so much time and having a moldy starter or a starter that doesn't work T_T.  Im just daunted by it ig O.O

Edited 15 hours ago by Acelestialobject (log)

[Smithy]

4 minutes ago, Acelestialobject said:

Hmm..I don't want to delay it but it seems like it takes a lot of time for different people. For some it takes two weeks and for some even longer. I kinda dont wanna risk spending so much time and having a moldy starter or a starter that doesn't work T_T.  Im just daunted by it ig O.O

 

I found it daunting until I tried it. It does take varying amounts of time, depending on the temperature to which it's exposed as well as other atmospheric issues (what wild yeast is in your area, for instance). But you know what? You can look back through the links we've given you and see (a) it works for most and (b) you really aren't risking much. Some flour and water. It doesn't take much of your active time; most of the time it just sits on the counter and does its thing. If you aren't willing to take a little risk, then sourdough probably isn't for you.

[Kerry Beal]

17 minutes ago, Acelestialobject said:

Hmm..I don't want to delay it but it seems like it takes a lot of time for different people. For some it takes two weeks and for some even longer. I kinda dont wanna risk spending so much time and having a moldy starter or a starter that doesn't work T_T.  Im just daunted by it ig O.O

Where do you live? Maybe someone can give you some starter to save you the aggravation of starting your own?

[Acelestialobject]

50 minutes ago, Smithy said:

 

I found it daunting until I tried it. It does take varying amounts of time, depending on the temperature to which it's exposed as well as other atmospheric issues (what wild yeast is in your area, for instance). But you know what? You can look back through the links we've given you and see (a) it works for most and (b) you really aren't risking much. Some flour and water. It doesn't take much of your active time; most of the time it just sits on the counter and does its thing. If you aren't willing to take a little risk, then sourdough probably isn't for you.

 

39 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

Where do you live? Maybe someone can give you some starter to save you the aggravation of starting your own?

I would like that Kerry but among the people ik there isn't anyone T_T. But I wanna give it a shot and see where it goes from there. So as Smithy says I'll take the risk and check it out :)) Thanks for the info tho y'all ❤️

[Acelestialobject]

Also has anyone tried sourdough cinnamon rolls?? How did it go??

O.O

Edited 14 hours ago by Acelestialobject (log)

[Kerry Beal]

7 minutes ago, Acelestialobject said:

Also has anyone tried sourdough cinnamon rolls?? How did it go??

O.O

I've been doing a lot with not very sour sourdough lately for a friend who is having to eat low FODMAP. No cinnamon rolls so far but I wouldn't be afraid to try. 

[Acelestialobject]

6 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

I've been doing a lot with not very sour sourdough lately for a friend who is having to eat low FODMAP. No cinnamon rolls so far but I wouldn't be afraid to try. 

To make not very sour sourdough what do you do? Does that have anything to do with developing the starter or do you just adjust the quantity of starter in the recipe??

[curls]

Here is a recipe from King Arthur Baking for sourdough cinnamon rolls. I haven't tried it but have gotten a lot of good recipes from KAB.

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/blog/2019/12/02/sourdough-cinnamon-buns

[Kerry Beal]

1 hour ago, Acelestialobject said:

To make not very sour sourdough what do you do? Does that have anything to do with developing the starter or do you just adjust the quantity of starter in the recipe??

Starter that just hasn't been allowed to become terribly sour. 

[Smithy]

3 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

Starter that just hasn't been allowed to become terribly sour. 

 

To elaborate a bit: as I recall, every time you feed the starter you discard some and add fresh flour and water. At that stage it's relatively unsour. The longer it ferments, the more sour it becomes. Folks who really know what they're doing can time the feedings and use so that they get the sourness they want. At least, that's the way I understand the process. Someone who knows more about it (for instance, Kerry Beal or @Ann_T, but there are others) can elaborate further, and more importantly correct me if I'm wrong.

[Kerry Beal]

Just now, Smithy said:

 

To elaborate a bit: as I recall, every time you feed the starter you discard some and add fresh flour and water. At that stage it's relatively unsour. The longer it ferments, the more sour it becomes. Folks who really know what they're doing can time the feedings and use so that they get the sourness they want. At least, that's the way I understand the process. Someone who knows more about it (for instance, Kerry Beal or @Ann_T, but there are others) can elaborate further, and more importantly correct me if I'm wrong.

I'd say that's bang on - now if we go back into the baking from flour, water, salt and yeast thread - I very quickly decided there was no way in hell I was going to feed the monster everyday and discard most of it over and over again - so I feed when I need it and keep it in the fridge the rest of the time. Forkish thread