Against the grain, part 1: fresh herbs

[Fat Guy]

There are a few issues on which I find myself out of step with the gourmet majority. One of them is regarding the use of fresh herbs.

Conventional nouvelle gourmet wisdom holds not only that fresh herbs are superior to dried herbs, but also that dried herbs are a sign of a feeble culinary consciousness. I see three problems with this view:

First, not all fresh herbs are so great. The often grown-indoors herbs available year-round at many supermarkets are neither particularly fresh nor flavorful. And their selection is often limited.

Second, as with most methods of preservation, drying herbs allows the packager to capture the best quality herbs at their peak of flavor. Not that this is always done, but it's a possibility. And the selection is vast.

Third, in many instances the concentrated flavors of dried herbs are more pleasing than what you'd get from fresh. Awhile back a friend made a classic Italian-American salad dressing using top-notch dried oregano. There's no way that flavor could have been captured with fresh.

Are you with me?

[melkor]

I think you're sort of right. Freshly dried herbs are great for a lot of things, they are often better than the wilted nastyness available at the supermarket. I use dried herbs when I make a rub for any sort of meat that is going to see high heat. Pick some fresh herbs, stick them on a papertowel and microwave them until they are dry. I send some freshly dried herbs home with my relatives when they visit from colder climates during the winter. If I lived somewhere that I couldn't grow herbs year round, then I'd use dried during the winter.

[Jmahl]

Makes sense, there is a place for each. Nothing like garden grown basil at its peak though.

If its all about appearance, aroma and taste shouldn't we use what works best given the choice?

[fifi]

When I have a growing herb garden I do use the fresh. But not for everything. There are some dishes that I make that aren't as good with fresh. The flavor is somewhat different. My Eggplant Gratin is one of those. I made it with fresh basil, oregano and fennel one time that I brought from my sister's garden. It really wasn't all that good. I went back to dried.

I guess that makes another case for each having their own use.

I have tinkered with using my DeLonghi convection toaster oven for drying herbs when I collected some wild horsemint. It did a bang up job, preserving the flavor as well as or better than I have ever been able to do with other methods. I will be doing that more when I am back with my own garden.

For fresh, there really isn't a good substitute for fresh, well grown basil for salads and pestos. The dried is just different, as in the gratin above. I feel the same way about rosemary. (As I recall, Steven, you have issues with rosemary. ) I can say the same for Mexican Mint Marigold, our substitute for tarragon. We can't grow real tarragon worth a flip here and it really does taste about the same. I have tried drying it several ways and it doesn't do all that well.

In the meantime, ordering from a place like Penzey's that knows how to treat their products and has a good turn over, is my preferred source.

[docsconz]

Steven, you are not really taking much of a leap here by saying that the best dried herbs are better than the worst fresh herbs. The best dried herbs cannot compare to the best fresh herbs, even if they maintain their place in the kitchen by their sheer availability. I don't believe that it is seasonal either as even dried herbs lose their potency over time.

[edsel]

Some herbs work well dried, as long as they're of high quality and stored properly: oregano, marjoram, thyme, rosemary, dill, sage, bay. I think that oregano, marjoram, and sage may actually be better (properly) dried than fresh.

But there are others that I would never use if I can't get them fresh: parsley, chive, chervil, cilantro, lemon grass, basil. The dried form is a pale imitation of the fresh - I'd rather substitute something entirely different, or forgo the flavor altogether.

Tarragon and mint are sort of an in-between case. The dried form is useful, but not necessarily a great substitute for fresh.

[mrbigjas]

i'm kind of thinking out loud right now, but how about thinking of herbs as two different things: the fresh and dried versions? where the difference is not quality or a value judgment, but straight up chemistry: the volatile oils that are destroyed when the herbs are either cooked or dried, or for that matter chopped and then left to sit?

i'm thinking of things like dried cilantro and parsley and basil (where so much of their essence is the volatile oil that dissipates so quickly when chopped and/or heated that there's practically no purpose to them) compared to herbs like thyme or rosemary or savory (which do taste different dried vs fresh, but they have much more assertive flavors dried than the former).

and sometimes, the non-volatile essence of the herb is what you're looking for.

does that make any sense? that herbs have two sets of flavors in varying proportions?

[rancho_gordo]

Fresh Oregano and dried are like fresh tomatoes and sun-dried- two different things.

Dried Sage is useless.

I don't think much of dried thyme and I can't recall ever getting bad fresh.

Rosemary is everywhere so I don't see why you'd buy it fresh or dried.

Thinking about it, I don't think you can categorize it one way or the other,

[goldie]

I agree with the other writers who said that basically it is use sensitive. Some foods are better with fresh, others work well with dried. I also think it is a some ways a seasonal issue. For example, I'm not very interested in eating tomato and basil salad in January. Likewise, I'd just assume not eat a hearty stew which could benefit from the use of dried herbs in July. Then it becomes a chicken and egg phenomenon- which comes first- the desire for clean fresh taste or the availability of that taste?

[fifi]

Fresh Oregano and dried are like fresh tomatoes and sun-dried- two different things.

Dried Sage is useless.

I don't think much of dried thyme and I can't recall ever getting bad fresh.

Rosemary is everywhere so I don't see why you'd buy it fresh or dried.

Thinking about it, I don't think you can categorize it one way or the other,

←

Oh, I dunno.

I got some rubbed sage from Penzey's that is pretty potent.

And my son can't keep rosemary going during the Chicago winter.

[Pan]

edsel, you think dill is good dried? I never liked it any way but fresh, but it's possible that the dried stuff I had wasn't nearly as good as yours. But still. And mint, fresh is definitely better.

[Abra]

I use a lot of dried herbs in winter, virtually none in summer except on rubs for the smoker or grill. And it's not about the seasonality of fresh herbs, but rather the fact that winter foods that are cooked low and slow do a lot better with dried herbs. Fresh herbs just don't stand up to that treatment, while the dried ones blossom with prolonged heat and moisture.

[fifi]

I use a lot of dried herbs in winter, virtually none in summer except on rubs for the smoker or grill.  And it's not about the seasonality of fresh herbs, but rather the fact that winter foods that are cooked low and slow do a lot better with dried herbs.  Fresh herbs just don't stand up to that treatment, while the dried ones blossom with prolonged heat and moisture.

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Hmmm . . . I never really thought about that. Maybe except for rosemary, fresh herbs have always disappointed in braises. And I braise a lot, pretty much year around. (If I didn't, I would only be able to enjoy my favorite dishes for, oh . . . maybe 2 months out of the year. )

[mrsadm]

I object to the cost of fresh herbs. $1.99 for a tiny bunch of whatever and you only use a sprig or two in the dish.

[mrbigjas]

And mint, fresh is definitely better.

this is what i was talking about in my last post. i think of mint as really two different herbs. the fresh version is better as a last minute garnish and for mint juleps and mojitos and the like--it's got all those volatile scents that are destroyed by heat and exposure to air.

but dried mint is a totally legit herb in its own right, and tastes totally different. it's got a grassy, almost earthy flavor with a slight medicinal edge. fresh mint wouldn't taste right in those middle eastern dishes where you use dried mint, in the same way as sprinkling dried mint in your mojito would be... ok that's just nasty.

[Milagai]

I don't know if ginger counts as a herb, but

dried ginger (sonth in Indian cooking) has

different taste and uses than fresh ginger.

But dried cilantro is totally useless....

Milagai

[BarbaraY]

Drying parsley, cilantro, epazote, or chervil should be considered a crime, in my opinion.

Some Mexican dishes just don't work with fresh oregano. Dry is the traditional ingredient.

I heartily dislike dry rosemary. To me it tastes like soap but it will live through the winter here so I have a bush that I have to keep cutting back.

I have thyme growing year round and sage and flat leaf parsley, too.

I don't buy those little packages from the grocery. I tried the basil several times and found it tasteless. Slugs got my basil this year. I did get some good basil from the Farmer's Market.

[Della]

I am a fan of fresh herbs and rarely use dried.

I don't like dried rosemary or sage and use them fresh or don't use them at all.

As far as braising - I think the whole sage leaves, rosemary, winter savory, bay leaves and even parsely hold up well. Sometimes you have to add half in the beginning and half part way through the cooking process - but I am ok with that.

We have a bay tree and I can honestly say that I haven't used a dried bay leave in over 3 years - the difference is amazing between fresh and dried.

I do use dried Thyme once in a while - when frying up breaded pork cutlets I will often sprinkle some dried Thyme in the bread crumbs before coating the meat.

And I do love a few of the Penzy's spice rubs (Bicentennial on chicken) and I know that there are dried herbs in those rubs.

But on the whole - I like fresh over dried almost all the time. It takes some thinking about when to add them and how much to add to your dishes but I think it is worth the time and effort.

[John DePaula]

Another area when dried herbs win out over fresh is for chocolate ganache. Lowering the moisture content of added herbs, e.g. tarragon, will concentrate the herb flavor and improve the shelf-life of the ganache. As you know from reading Wybaugh, high moisture = short shelf-life.

[fifi]

I also find those plastic packages of herbs in the grocery at hijack prices an absolute last resort. Unless I am under extreme duress, I will usually just cook something else. I think they are "forced" in greenhouses and never really develop their chemical weapon arsenals to the fullest.

[edsel]

edsel, you think dill is good dried? I never liked it any way but fresh, but it's possible that the dried stuff I had wasn't nearly as good as yours. But still. And mint, fresh is definitely better.

←

I've never found store-bought dried dill to be worth using. When I dry my own and store it properly it's OK, though not as good as fresh.

[mrbigjas]

dill freezes well, so i don't bother with it dried. i mean, the texture does get destroyed, so it's not for putting the fronds over a fresh piece of salmon, but for cooking up some nice dill bread or something the flavor is pretty much all there when you freeze it.

[fifi]

Warning on freezing dill.

One of the frustrations here is that the dill and the cucumbers do not peak at the same time. My mother used to have a big gallon glass jar and would pick the best seed heads and fronds for the pickles later. (Dad made pickles every year.)

Fast forward and my sister has inherited the house and garden. She picks the dill and finds a big plastic freezer container. Within about a week the freezer contents (big chest type kept below zero) smelled and tasted of dill. Ever tried dill flavored Haagen-Daz?

I freeze herbs all the time . . . in glass canning jars.

I agree on dried dill. It takes a lot to get any flavor at all.

[mrbigjas]

i did not know that. thanks for that tip--i'll definitely check into the situation...

[eje]

Rosemary is everywhere so I don't see why you'd buy it fresh or dried.

←

Maybe for us in CA. Not so for states with harsher winters. For me, there are times, especially during the rainy season, when I don't feel like tromping the 3 blocks to my community garden just to get some fresh sage.

I agree with the posters above who say fresh and dried herbs aren't superior or inferior but completely different things, which must be handled in different ways.

The problem is most recipes don't go much beyond telling you to use 1 teaspoon dried vs. 1 tablespoon fresh herbs.

There are some dried herbs like cilantro, parsley, dill and chives which are almost completely worthless, because so much of their flavor has vanished.