Stock in a Pressure Cooker

[patrickamory]

Yes, possibly I've been having luck because I've been making very simple stocks in the PC. The basic Chinese stock (Grace Young / Fucshia Dunlop) can have pork in it, scallions are optional, salt can be in it or not, it can be as simple as chicken and ginger, nothing else. It really is dynamite - I don't add a ton of water, so it is on the rich side - just 3/4 cup of it to a half cup of dried cannelini beans was revelatory. More in the DInner thread on that result (when I have a chance - probably not till next week - but one of the most successful bean dishes I've ever made).

[dcarch]

What's wrong with cloudy stock?

Does clear stock taste better?

dcarch

Edited October 24, 2013 by dcarch (log)

[Martin Fisher]

If you look at Heston Blumenthal's chicken stock recipe, he does the conventional stock making first step of bringing the elements to the boil and skimming off impurities before pressure cooking the stock for maximum extraction. This is going to result in a more clear product. With the level of flavour extraction done by the pressure cooker, I cut the carrot content way back to avoid both the muddy taste referred to above as well as an orange tint to the stock.

Tom Colicchio starts his stocks with a brief boil and drain.

James Beard started his with a 15 minute boil.

I start with a brief boil or a sauté à la Edna Lewis.

I've evolved to using just meaty bones, onion and water.....nothing else.

[scubadoo97]

What's wrong with cloudy stock?

Does clear stock taste better?

dcarch

I wonder that myself. I've made clear stocks and cloudy stock and don't strive for either. They all taste pretty good to me

[Stephie]

I less care about the color for the veal stock because it is going to be in sauces. The fat emulsifying in it negates my ability to finish a sauce with butter. Not the end of the world. But, if this was chicken broth for soup, it may look more like cream of chicken soup. Not awesome if it's not what I'm going for.

I blanched the bones and rinsed them off before I roasted them. Stock was bones, water, fond from roasting pans that I deglazed with a little red wine, peppercorns, bay leaves, onions, and carrots. Nothing I haven't made fifty times, but out of the pressure cooker and with less marrow.

Call me stumped other than the marrow theory above.

Appreciate all the feedback.

[Martin Fisher]

I deglazed with a little red wine

Some say the lower the pH, the cloudier the stock.

I have no idea if the issue is compounded in a pressure cooker but it seems plausible.

Try eliminating anything that's low pH.

[paulraphael]

This 2009 post in Cooking Issues demonstrated that some pressure cookers make better stock than others.

http://www.cookingissues.com/2009/11/22/pressure-cooked-stocks-we-got-schooled/#more-2561

Multiple rounds of blind testing showd that the Kuhn Rikon, which vents very little steam, made the best stock. Conventional stock came in second place, and stock made with jiggle-valve style pressure cookers came in last. These seemed to vent the most steam.

I have no experience with pressure cookers, and am having trouble getting a sense of what other cookers work similarly to the Kuhn rikons. I'd like an alternative, since the 8 and 12 quart kr cookers cost a fortune.

To obscure things a bit, I just found a Cooks Illustrated article on pressure cookers, which rated a Fagor duo much more highly than a KR. I wouldn't normally give this magazine any weight compared with Cooking Issues, but they measured evaporative loss, and found the kr lost more. It looks like Fagor has many different model lines ... Maybe some are different from the model tested by Cooking Issues.

Any thought? Does anyone know of a 10 or 12 quart pressure cooker that vents minimally (like the KR) but for less money? Any specific experience with the Fagor Duo?

[Kerry Beal]

I've got the 8 quart and 4 quart duo set - they only vent steam if I don't turn the heat down enough.  I've been very happy with anything I made with them.  And the price was right.

[gfweb]

I have the 8qt fagor. As KB said above it doesn't vent unless I keep the gas turned up.

 

The stock I make in it is better than the stuff made traditionally...though I've not done a head -to-head, blinded taste test.

[Martin Fisher]

ALL pressure cookers vent to some extent.....adjust the heat to just below venting on a standard pressure cooker to minimize venting.

The end result is ~ the same.

 

I've used several different brands of pressure cookers (Kuhn-Rikon, Fissler, Presto, Mirro, Hawkins, etc.)...I like Hawkins stainless ....they're a well-built utilitarian cooker....they're proven in that there are literally MILLIONS of them in use in India.

 

I have a 3 liter, 5 liter and 10 liter....all stainless.

 

http://www.bombayelectronics.com/Hawkins_10_Liter_Stainless_Steel_Pressure_Cooker_p/ha_ss10.htm

Edited April 20, 2014 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[OliverB]

I have two KR and love them. Never make stock any other way nowadays and they're great for 10min potatoes and other things too. They'll last for a long time, so price is not really an issue.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I have been very happy with with my Fissler 8 qt for making stock (MC technique).  Unfortunately for you Fissler is no less expensive than KR -- although as I recall KR offers a lower cost line of pressure cookers made in India.

 

I never could figure out whether Fissler or KR was better, but I decided on Fissler and have been pleased.  I think you would be satisfied with either one.

[haresfur]

Do you concentrate your stock after making it?  I do and I can't see how the little bit of volatiles lost during pressure cooking the stock could possibly compare to the amount that must be lost when boiling it down.

[gdenby]

I suppose you saw the same Cooks Illustrated article that I did a few years back. I did buy a Fagor Futura set. It has performed very well, and I couldn't imagine making stock without it. Great time savings. Rarely need to concentrate the stock w. further evaporation. All but the thickest bits of collagen turn to gel. Often I get an aspic like mass once everything cools.

 

Unfortunately, I dropped the lid a few months ago, and the plastic latching thingy shattered. Can't find a replacement.

 

Also, I have over pressured it several times. My current range delivers too much heat even at its lowest setting. I think the over pressuring has somehow lessened the seal, because I will sometimes hear boiling inside the vessel. I may replace w. a KR, which looks a little sturdier,

[Kerry Beal]

If you contact fagor america directly you can buy parts - here.

 

[dcarch]

It may be interesting to find out what temperature your pressure cooker can actually go up to.

 

Get a small metal container with may be two cups of oil. Pressure steam the oil inside the PC. Make sure the oil is above the water level inside the PC and cover the oil so no water can drip into it. Give it about 40 minutes after pressure has built up.

 

Immediately run the PC under cold water to release pressure and measure the oil temperature.

 

I found out my Presto PC can only get to 227F, which is not good enough for me.

 

So I machined a new heavier pressure weight valve. With that I am now able to get 267F. 

 

I never directly PC stock. I use a separate smaller pot to go inside the PC, kind of pressure steam the stock. The stock comes out less cloudy, and cleanup is easier too.

 

At 267F, even bones get very soft and chew-able. 

 

dcarch

 

 

[gdenby]

If you contact fagor america directly you can buy parts - here.

 

Thanks much for the link, but my unit appears to predate even the 2010 replacement part. My Future model has the pressure controls and the handle as 1 piece all on the top. I may contact them and see if there is anything compatible, but I am dubious. I think I bought mine around 2002, which in appliance years may be several generations old.

[Kerry Beal]

Send them a picture - they have parts they don't show on the website.  I spent a fair bit of time with them to get parts for an older unit.  

[patrickamory]

I pressure cook all my stocks in a Presto and love them.

[paulraphael]

ALL pressure cookers vent to some extent.....adjust the heat to just below venting on a standard pressure cooker to minimize venting.

The end result is ~ the same.

That makes sense, but I suspect it's not so simple. Dave and Nils at Cooking Issues are as smart about this stuff as anyone, and if getting a Fagor and Iwatani to produce the same results as the KR was just a matter of regulating the heat, that would have been the end of the story.

 

Unfortunately they never followed up on the post. So we have their initial observation, and a hypothesis, but nothing else to go on.

[Martin Fisher]

I've compared the stock produced by a "non-venting" and a venting pressure cooker operated just below the point of venting...there's no appreciable difference in the two...they're the same.

If you really want to capture ALL the flavor, make the stock in sealed canning jars inside a pressure cooker.

Edited April 21, 2014 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[dcarch]

I've compared the stock produced by a "non-venting" and a venting pressure cooker operated below the point of venting...there's no appreciable difference in the two...they're the same.

If you really want to capture ALL the flavor, make the stock in sealed canning jars inside a pressure cooker.

 

I am with Martin.

 

I can't seem to think of a scientific reason why and how the stocks would taste different, if the food is cooked in identical environment inside the pressure cookers.

 

Assuming of course the rubber gasket material and the metals of the vessels will not impart their tastes to the food.

 

dcarch

[Martin Fisher]

If you reread the article carefully you'll notice that they RE-COOKED pre-made stock to make the comparison.....why they would do that, I have NO idea....it doesn't make any sense.
 

"I took 4 liters of conventional chicken stock from the restaurant and pressure-cooked half while the other half simmered on the stove. This time, I didn’t use the school’s pressure cooker, I used my own. When I compared the two stocks side by side the pressure cooked one was far browner. I hadn’t thought the pressure cooker would change the color of a pre-made stock. When we tasted them the pressure-cooker won! Finally.

 

I then ran the same test with the school’s pressure cooker and the pressure cooker lost. WTF?"

 

 

I wouldn't pay too much attention to that article.

Edited April 21, 2014 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[Martin Fisher]

Something else from the article.....

"All pressure cookers reach similar temperatures –approximately 250 F (120 C) at 15psi; but the way they regulate pressure is different."

That isn't correct, not all pressure cookers operate at the same psi.

Kuhn-Rikon Duromatic manual pg. 61.....

"Cooking level 1 (First Ring)
Gentle cooking at a low cooking pressure (0.4 bar).

Cooking level 2 (Second Ring)
Rapid cooking at a high cooking pressure (0.8 bar)."

.8 bar is just a bit under 12 psi (11.6 psi) ......that's at sea level....so the Kuhn-Rikon doesn't operate at 1 bar (1 bar = 14.503 psi, usually rounded up to 15psi) as some pressure cookers do.

Edited April 21, 2014 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[NEPolarbear]

I've been using a Fissler 10.5 for several months.

Mostly use it for my stocks.

Could never simmer for more that 8 hrs before, but now beautiful thick gelatin stock (after refrigeration) in about an hour.

 

My only advice is to get the largest pc that you can handle / afford.