Should you disclose ingredients?

[anzu]

A nearby supermarket recently started stocking horse meat, so of course I bought some and cooked it.

About seven eighths through the meal, my husband suddenly asked what the meat was we were eating. When I told him, he refused to eat the rest, and accused me of being cruel. Cruel to him, that is, for not having told him what I was serving him.

Now, I normally never say in advance what it is I'm dishing up, whether it's taro, banana flower or, in this case, horse. And it's never actually been an issue before even though I am (ahem) slightly wont to experiment.

So, should you warn people about to eat your food that the ingredients might be different from what they're used to? Wouldn't this frighten off the easily intimidated before they've even tasted it so that they will never experience the joyous taste of whatever it is you're serving?

(It goes without saying that I am not advocating keeping ingredients secret when cooking for people with food restrictions, be these restrictions religious, allergy-related, or of any other type.)

[racheld]

Weird is not exactly the word to describe certain kinds of meat, I think. Some sensitivity to "experience comfort" or prior association with the animals involved is required in certain cases.

Chickens and ducks and cows, oh, my, are part of an ingrained thought process in most people, I would imagine, and depending on the culture, so is every creature which walks, swims, flies or slithers.

But in the case of certain animals, people have a tendency to look at the persona and the personal factor, as in the case of horses---they are companions, friends, and workmates on so many levels to so many, and have been personified in life and literature as more than just beasts to be consumed.

Taking a chance on a dinner so unexpected in one's frame of reference is a cause for consternation and concern, and I know that most people would hope to be informed when the comestibles fall so far outside the norm of expectation in both foodstuffs and emotional associations.

Less than 2c, but I'm off on a daytrip and must hurry.

rachel

[FabulousFoodBabe]

So, should you warn people about to eat your food that the ingredients might be different from what they're used to? Wouldn't this frighten off the easily intimidated before they've even tasted it so that they will never experience the joyous taste of whatever it is you're serving?

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Introducing someone to the joys of taro and banana flower is a little different than sneaking Filet of Flicka onto their plate.

I'd probably be as pissed as my sister was the day she was enjoying chicken-fried steak, only to find out that it was liver.

[PopsicleToze]

You should have told him -- especially with horse. There aren't many things I wouldn't eat, and I'm guilty of sneaking a few things in people's plates that they wouldn't ordinarily eat. However, I wouldn't eat horse (grew up with horses) and if anyone would have done that to me, I would have been angry, too.

But you didn't know and your intentions weren't cruel. He'll get over it.

[jsolomon]

It depends somewhat. For instance, last night, I tossed in some mushrooms and a fine chiffonade of mint into my and my girlfriend's carbonara last night. It was lovely. Becky asked me if I put anything "weird" into it, and I said no.

Well, naturally mint isn't weird. But, it was just enough to perfume the bite but not affect the flavor. Quite lovely. When I told her, she just shrugged her shoulders and continued to tuck in.

But, I've had people get pissed at me for serving them heart. Beef heart. Honestly, once you remove the skeleton and muscles, the steer doesn't have much use for his heart, so why not? Americans spend an inordinate amount of energy anthropomorphizing their foodstuffs. And Momma Nature has rarely won a Miss Congeniality contest.

[chow guy]

It depends somewhat.  For instance, last night, I tossed in some mushrooms and a fine chiffonade of mint into my and my girlfriend's carbonara last night.  It was lovely.  Becky asked me if I put anything "weird" into it, and I said no.

Well, naturally mint isn't weird.  But, it was just enough to perfume the bite but not affect the flavor.  Quite lovely.  When I told her, she just shrugged her shoulders and continued to tuck in.

But, I've had people get pissed at me for serving them heart.  Beef heart.  Honestly, once you remove the skeleton and muscles, the steer doesn't have much use for his heart, so why not?  Americans spend an inordinate amount of energy anthropomorphizing their foodstuffs.  And Momma Nature has rarely won a Miss Congeniality contest.

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So true and very funny

[Genny]

I'd never serve rabbit to my SIL.

Funny story....

Growing up my SIL had a bunny. It was kept outside on the back patio and one day there was a big storm. The bunny's cage was open afterwards and the bunny was gone.

A week or so later Mom made a fantastic meal. Everyone was mostly through eating and someone asked what it was. Mom replied "Rabbit" poor SIL lost it right there on the table. Mom swears it wasn't the dearly departed but SIL never got over the trauma.

I can tell you, I'd probably try horse. What the heck, I don't have a great affinity for them though. I'd probably refuse to eat cat or dog though! I agree entirely with the concept that we personify our pets to such a degree that the thought of eating them seems like cannibalism.

OTOH, I wouldn't disclose beef heart, duck, or any other rather mundane if not usually found on my table ingredient. I like my subjects to enter the meal with an open mind.

BTW, my husband (it is his sister in the story) likes rabbit just fne, as do I.

[racheld]

A nearby supermarket recently started stocking horse meat, so of course I bought some and cooked it.

About seven eighths through the meal, my husband suddenly asked what the meat was we were eating. When I told him, he refused to eat the rest, and accused me of being cruel. Cruel to him, that is, for not having told him what I was serving him.

Now, I normally never say in advance what it is I'm dishing up, whether it's taro, banana flower or, in this case, horse. And it's never actually been an issue before even though I am (ahem) slightly wont to experiment.

So, should you warn people about to eat your food that the ingredients might be different from what they're used to? Wouldn't this frighten off the easily intimidated before they've even tasted it so that they will never experience the joyous taste of whatever it is you're serving?

(It goes without saying that I am not advocating keeping ingredients secret when cooking for people with food restrictions, be these restrictions religious, allergy-related, OF ANY OTHER TYPE)

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Caps above are mine---still unused to all the bells and whistles available in posts.

You should have taken into account a possible PERSONAL abhorrence or consideration when you decided to inflict an unusual and possibly unacceptable food upon someone. And the fact that you are writing to ask says that you are cognizant of your culpability in this.

That "joyous taste" you mention will not be remembered nearly so long as the unpleasantness of the denouement.

I cannot fathom being so blithe about something which might have caused someone you love an unpleasant experience. This was far removed from strange herbs or exotic preparations or unusual sea creatures. This was by nature a choosing FOR someone in a circumstance in which you should have given the person a choice BEFORE he ate it. I CAN understand his consternation and upset at having been duped, as it were, in his own home.

More than the 2c of yesterday, but this is a subject you CANNOT decide for someone else. I'm not speaking from a sob-story position of the beautiful-big-brown-eyes, how-could-you-DO-that standpoint, but of your needing affirmation from a bunch of strangers that you did not err. And I think you did.

Edited May 27, 2005 by racheld (log)

[*Deborah*]

I seemingly (unknowingly) ate some horse at a recent eGullet-pal event in Vancouver. At the time, there was a bit of pussyfooting, but then afterward the Mr. Ed jokes were too many to ignore.

I think I was the only person present (out of 18? or so) who had any reservations about it when the topic came up...some of the others had completely enjoyed horse meat on some other occasions, and we Gulleters are encouraged to try anything.

My list of "no, thanks" items is short, but horse it on it. I don't mind, it was only a little bit, and I'm not so much of a drama queen as to have a hissy or anything, but although the flavour was pleasant, I will not order it again, for completely unscientific reasons.

If I had the choice to make again, and had been told plainly, I wouldn't have eaten it. If others want to, it doesn't bother me, but even if it were the dish of the gods or something, even if it tasted like foie gras for one-tenth the price, I would not knowingly eat it any more than I would dress my cats and roast them with olive oil and thyme.

[/emo]

Plenty of other people don't mind, though; or would have let their appreciation of the flavour override their emotional reaction, so...I don't know.

[Genny]

Anzu,

I guess the question is whether or not you knew that he would not want to try horse meat before choosing to serve it to him.

I think cruelty would be knowing (or thinking they may) have an aversion to something and serving it to them anyway.

[Grub]

The only food aversion that I truly respect, is that based genuine allergies.

I have little empathy for irrational food aversions, like Linda McCartney going vegitarian because hey, lambs are cute -- or those who refuse to eat butter beans and lettuce because their religion forbids it. I've seen too many temporary vegitarians/vegan/whatnots create headaches for poor home cooks. I'll make no bones about it of course: I have my own irrational, cultural food aversions...

However, taking this Commander Data-like approach to food aversions, I would still never feed anyone something I knew they disliked -- no matter how silly I thought their objections were.

[Pan]

The only food aversion that I truly respect, is that based genuine allergies.

I have little empathy for irrational food aversions, like Linda McCartney going vegitarian because hey, lambs are cute -- or those who refuse to eat butter beans and lettuce because their religion forbids it. I've seen too many temporary vegitarians/vegan/whatnots create headaches for poor home cooks. I'll make no bones about it of course: I have my own irrational, cultural  food aversions...

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You don't have any respect for religious dietary prohibitions? I don't know; I'm kind of shocked by that.

[culinary bear]

Caps above are mine---still unused to all the bells and whistles available in posts.

You should have taken into account a possible PERSONAL abhorrence or consideration when you decided to inflict an unusual and possibly unacceptable food upon someone.   And the fact that you are writing to ask says that you are cognizant of your culpability in this.

That "joyous taste" you mention will not be remembered nearly so long as the unpleasantness of the denouement. 

I cannot fathom being so blithe about something which might have caused someone you love an unpleasant experience.   This was far removed from strange herbs or exotic preparations or unusual sea creatures.    This was by nature a choosing FOR someone in a circumstance in which you should have given the person a choice BEFORE he ate it.   I CAN understand his consternation and upset at having been duped, as it were, in his own home.

More than the 2c of yesterday, but this is a subject you CANNOT decide for someone else.   I'm not speaking from a sob-story position of the beautiful-big-brown-eyes, how-could-you-DO-that standpoint, but of your needing affirmation from a bunch of strangers that you did not err.   And I think you did.

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...and I think you're extensively projecting your personal values on to a culture which quite probably has much more of a history of hippophagy than your own.

What about the responsibility of her husband to make reasonably clear if he didn't want to eat a particular food? They're husband and wife; this isn't cooking for random strangers here. How much of the cooking does the husband do in the home?

I'm respectful of the fact that this isn't altogether akin to not liking cilantro; this is, however, much more involved than the somewhat inflexible judgement you appear to be passing down on the original poster.

Edited May 27, 2005 by culinary bear (log)

[ada]

I don't think you should have to post ingredients in advance. If someone asks, it's probably because there are certain things they won't eat for one reason or another. The cook has an obligation at that point to disclose everything. The risk is that a great meal might go to waste.

I'm sure if this cook thought her husband wouldn't eat horse, she would not have prepared it. Otherwise, she could have hidden the truth.

[Swisskaese]

The only food aversion that I truly respect, is that based genuine allergies.

I have little empathy for irrational food aversions, like Linda McCartney going vegitarian because hey, lambs are cute -- or those who refuse to eat butter beans and lettuce because their religion forbids it. I've seen too many temporary vegitarians/vegan/whatnots create headaches for poor home cooks. I'll make no bones about it of course: I have my own irrational, cultural  food aversions...

However, taking this Commander Data-like approach to food aversions, I would still never feed anyone something I knew they disliked -- no matter how silly I thought their objections were.

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And what about those of us that keep Kosher or only eat Halal meat? I find your comment downright insulting. I always ask my guests if they have food allergies or aversions to particular foods. I am allergic to raw tomato and have an aversion to coriander.

Edited May 28, 2005 by Swisskaese (log)

[Grub]

You don't have any respect for religious dietary prohibitions? I don't know; I'm kind of shocked by that.

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And what about those of us that keep Kosher or only eat Halal meat? I find your comment downright insulting. I always ask my guests if they have food allergies or aversions to particular foods. I am allergic to raw tomato and have an aversion to coriander.

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Seeing that this board is about food and not religion, I don't want to divert the debate, but as I said, "...I would still never feed anyone something I knew they disliked..."

My use of the word "respect" was poorly chosen here, seeing that it is quite ambiguous in this circumstance. I DO respect any and all food aversions, inasmuch as respect="Will not violate it" but not inasmuch as respect="Revere & venerate it." As I said, "...I would still never feed anyone something I knew they disliked..."

[redfox]

I DO respect any and all food aversions, inasmuch as respect="Will not violate it" but not inasmuch as respect="Revere & venerate it." As I said, "...I would still never feed anyone something I knew they disliked..."

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How about inasmuch as not sneering at it behind their backs?

[anzu]

Hmm, maybe time to define my stance a little!

I'm not asking about whether I have wronged my husband here. I'm asking about how far other people like to go in discussing what is in the food they're serving or about to serve.

For me, a great deal of the joy in cooking and eating is pushing the limits of what one eats just that little bit further. It does not involve leaps large enough to make the eater uncomfortable, though it may, perhaps, leave him/her teetering on the edge of their comfort zone.

Now, the form this takes will depend on existing food habits. If I give horse to my husband, it's because I know that he's already okay with kangaroo, reindeer, elk, moose, and donkey. To me, there would not seem to be a quantum leap. On the other hand, I wouldn't serve cat, dog, or grasshopper without warning, because I do rather doubt he would be happy with these.

I should point out, perhaps, that when cooking for others, I always ask first about what foods or general food categories are not acceptable. And then what I give them will be decided accordingly.

If cooking for someone used to eating only spinach, for example, the process of pushing the envelope might be as simple as serving swiss chard instead. Or cooking with butter for someone who has only ever used margarine. To me, serving roasted cauliflower to a person who has eaten it cooked only in other ways is also part of the same process. Further, there will ALWAYS be a variety of alternative dishes on my table for those who wish to avoid a particular food.

The variation in comfort zones is why I put 'weird' in quote marks in the first place. What is 'weird' for one person is utterly commonplace for another. And I chose this word deliberately rather than exotic, objectionable, or any other word.

So, in this context, I would definitely agree that adding mint to a dish was adding a 'weird' ingredient, given that the eater's expectations of the dish were different. And so it's interesting to me that you didn't disclose it.

As far as serving heart goes. Who are you serving it to? Have you told them in advance? (i.e. at what point did you disclose it??). Are you providing alternative dishes as well?

So, let's back away from horse as it's obviously pushing a few people way past their comfort zone. Choose whatever foodstuff you desire, and now imagine serving it with a slight twist to someone who has either not eaten that food before, or has not eaten it prepared in that way. Pumpkin greens in place of spinach. Coriander powder baked into the chocolate cake. Whatever.

Now, would you disclose the ingredients first, or just go ahead and serve it?

[ellencho]

Me personally, yes I would disclose any out of the ordinary ingredients to my guests or loved ones because I would hope they would do the same for me. My mother KNOWS that I have a mango allergy but would still put mango into some of her dishes because she thinks that if it's just a small amount, or if it's cooked, or if I don't know about it then I'll be ok. Nevertheless, I am very careful to check the trash for any traces of mango peels and seeds when she cooks for me because I don't want to end up beet red and itching like a flea bitten dog.

Also, you never know what sort of connection somebody has to a certain type of animal, so out of respect for that I would disclose any sort of unusual animal to my diners. Even something as mundane as squid or crawfish I'd let my guests know beforehand. I try not to invite overly picky eaters over very often because sometimes trying to coordinate their likes and dislikes around what I wish to serve can get irritating and I end up feeling really frustrated.

[Tess]

I DO respect any and all food aversions, inasmuch as respect="Will not violate it" but not inasmuch as respect="Revere & venerate it." As I said, "...I would still never feed anyone something I knew they disliked..."

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How about inasmuch as not sneering at it behind their backs?

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Yeah, I also don't think it's fair to talk about "temporary vegetarians" as if that's your default assumption about vegetarians. What-- people who switch to vegetarianism are always going to go back? You don't know that.

[Chufi]

For me it very much depends on who I'm serving dinner. With my husband or close friends, when I've cooked something 'weird', I will say "now try this and tell me if you know what it it is, guess the mystery ingredient "etc. But only with people I know very well, know their eating habits etc.

With friends I don't know so well, larger groups etc. I will always tell them what they're about to eat. Like someone said upthread, what you put in your mouth is something nobody but yourself should decide for you.

[Syrah]

Now, would you disclose the ingredients first, or just go ahead and serve it?

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Totally depends on what it is and who it is for. Recently I made a lightly curried soup for dinner that included an apple and a banana. He is extremely averse to banana but I was assured it would not be detectable so I went ahead. He loved it and looked shocked when I told him.

Another situation would be rabbit, my bf had rabbits as pets as a child. We have discussed it and I know he would not be happy to eat it. I say fair enough to that and do not make it.

It's all about knowing who you are serving and if you have doubts you are better to ask in my opinion. I would never knowingly serve something that could be offensive to my guests and I would be mortified to learn I had done it inadvertently.

[Luckylies]

I would not shock a pet or a loved one by serving them a pet or a loved one. all else is fair game religion, allergys, preordained food RESTRICTIONS fine, I don't mess with them anyhting else is fair game. If you bug out when I surprise you with sea cucumber, we're probably not real friends anyway...

[pchef_247]

A nearby supermarket recently started stocking horse meat, so of course I bought some and cooked it.

About seven eighths through the meal, my husband suddenly asked what the meat was we were eating. When I told him, he refused to eat the rest, and accused me of being cruel. Cruel to him, that is, for not having told him what I was serving him.

Now, I normally never say in advance what it is I'm dishing up, whether it's taro, banana flower or, in this case, horse. And it's never actually been an issue before even though I am (ahem) slightly wont to experiment.

So, should you warn people about to eat your food that the ingredients might be different from what they're used to? Wouldn't this frighten off the easily intimidated before they've even tasted it so that they will never experience the joyous taste of whatever it is you're serving?

(It goes without saying that I am not advocating keeping ingredients secret when cooking for people with food restrictions, be these restrictions religious, allergy-related, or of any other type.)

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My wife says not to disclose the ingredient. I however, wish to know what it is that I'm putting in my mouth. Do you go to a restaurant and tell the chef to cook whatever and then happily eat it without any sort of menu?

[PaoPao]

We've had a thread on our local eG board talking about Horsemeat and peoples feelings about it. I can respect if people have reservations about eating certain kinds of meats and I don't think it's appropriate to surprise people in that way.

On the other hand, I have been seriously debating doing a dinner party where "Mystery Foods" are prepared and served. The invitees would be warned that any one of the items could be linked to items that they wouldn't previously had thought of eating. So if they decided to attend, then they are informed (but still in the dark).