Food Pronunciation Guide for the Dim-witted

[Chris Amirault]

Ha, Chris, they were talking like that in Sout' Philly before the Sopranos were a gleam in HBO's eye.

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Oh, I know -- I was just saying that the hipster doofus crowd has started using that lingo thanks to Tony & Co.!

[*Deborah*]

Ha, Chris, they were talking like that in Sout' Philly before the Sopranos were a gleam in HBO's eye.

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Oh, I know -- I was just saying that the hipster doofus crowd has started using that lingo thanks to Tony & Co.!

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Oh, yeah, the doofuses...

(I loved that episode when they went to Napoli and were complaining that they couldn't get just some macaroni and gravy )

[C_Ruark]

... Pasta Fagioli, which in the delis in NJ is corrupted to Pasta Fazool. (I cringe when people say "Fazool" , they think its so hip!)

Great example!!! I've seen this one wreak havoc first-hand.

In the first few weeks of a friend's new restaurant (somewhere not in NJ), he had to comp a lot of soups because quite a few patrons kept complaining their order was wrong. He brought me in to consult and I quickly discovered he had two soups listed: Pasta Fazool and Pasta e Fagioli.

When queried, he thought 'fagioli' meant 'mushrooms' in Italian (fungo is the right word, Bub! ), so he added seasonal mushrooms to the second soup's recipe (even truffles were used once; lucky for him, folks knew better than turn that version down) and placed it on the menu. Once the 'fazool' entry was deleted and the mushrooms removed from the recipe, all went well.

Regarding Gruener Veltliner: it's pronouced 'Groon-nahr ffelt-LEANehr"; Accents/inflections are in bold. No qualms here with those who disagree since German has a multitude of dialects and regional inflection patterns (as do most languages); this is how it is said in Austria's Tyrolean Alps.

Best regards to all,

- CSR

Edited May 23, 2005 by C_Ruark (log)

[Almass]

Moet Chandon - yes, it's Dutch and the "t" is pronounced.  Same with Perrier Jouet.

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Moet & Chandon is Dutch??

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Sorry, I'm wrong. I was thinking Jouet, and got carried away. And with Jouet I'm only going on the word of someone I trust, so maybe that's not wholly true.

Retracting, retracting, retracting. . .

Moet is FRENCH. Has NEVER been Dutch. Named after Claude Moet. But the "t" is still pronounced.

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Both Moet et Chandon and Perrier Jouet are French Champagne. As matter of fact any Champagne appelation is French.

As for the "t" in both names, unfortunatly it is not pronounced whatsoever.

[therese]

I toured Moët & Chandon in Epernay in the late 1980s and the tour guide was very specific about the "t" in Moët being pronounced, and this is how I've usually heard it. Seems like the family was of Dutch or Flemish origin.

[Smithy]

I toured Moët & Chandon in Epernay in the late 1980s and the tour guide was very specific about the "t" in Moët being pronounced, and this is how I've usually heard it. Seems like the family was of Dutch or Flemish origin.

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I got the same story about Moët's pronunciation during a tour in 1992, for what that's worth. I don't recall the family origin, but I do remember the pronunciation.

Edited May 23, 2005 by Smithy (log)

[touaregsand]

I toured Moët & Chandon in Epernay in the late 1980s and the tour guide was very specific about the "t" in Moët being pronounced, and this is how I've usually heard it. Seems like the family was of Dutch or Flemish origin.

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I got the same story about Moet's pronunciation around 1992, for what that's worth. I don't recall the family origina, but I do remember the pronunciation.

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I just asked the native French speaker standing next to me. He says the same thing. The "t" is pronounced. For what that's worth.

[Almass]

Yes, you are right the "t" is to be pronounced as although born in France, Claude Moet is of Dutch origin.

[Behemoth]

... Pasta Fagioli, which in the delis in NJ is corrupted to Pasta Fazool. (I cringe when people say "Fazool" , they think its so hip!)

These things do happen. As when people in the US without much mathematical training began (in the 1980s) saying parameters "when they meant perimeters but were trying to be hip," as one professional writer complained publicly then; and despite continued advice from other literate writers, competent guidebooks, and everyone who knows what a parameter really is. Lately they've been doing it again, with "nonlinear." These things happen.

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You mean like when they say something is growing logarithmically when it's actually growing exponentially? Gotta love it.

This is in English but...Treacle. The c is pronounced as a k, not as an s, right?

German is very consistent in terms of pronounciation. If you learn the few rules you really can't go wrong. I've forgotten a lot of French though -- are there consistent rules about ie vs. ei, and the t and s at the end of the word? Or are they evil and confusing, like the british?

[touaregsand]

German is very consistent in terms of pronounciation. If you learn the few rules you really can't go wrong. I've forgotten a lot of French though -- are there consistent rules about ie vs. ei, and the t and s at the end of the word? Or are they evil and confusing, like the british?

As a non-native speaker learning on my own I'd say it's pretty consistent. My 6 year old learned how to read English and French at the same time and the inconsistencies in English were a bit of a hurdle. The French was cake compared to it.

She's the one I asked about the 't' in Moet.

[C_Ruark]

[You mean like when they say something is growing logarithmically when it's actually growing exponentially? Gotta love it.

This is in English but...Treacle. The c is pronounced as a k, not as an s, right?

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Yup... you're right about Treacle. Brits say "Tree-kill". Now, how is Arugula pronounced in the land of HRH? (Actually, it's a trick question. If you said "Rocket"...congrats).

-- Those who read on, forgive my longwindedness, I am as passionate about languages as I am cooking...

... actually, I pontificated out of frustration and went off topic, so I deleted the long rant I left. Certain times, my two passions (gastronomy and languages) cross paths.

In my cookbook collection is an old French copy of Escoffier (amazing what gems you'll come across in an much over-looked Parisian bookstore; this one quite literally right outside the main gates of Versailles). I was bent around the axle translating recipes and comparing it to a popular English copy which is laden with mistakes.

Best Regards,

- CSR

Edited May 24, 2005 by C_Ruark (log)

[touaregsand]

Moet Chandon - yes, it's Dutch and the "t" is pronounced.  Same with Perrier Jouet.

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Moet & Chandon is Dutch??

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Sorry, I'm wrong. I was thinking Jouet, and got carried away. And with Jouet I'm only going on the word of someone I trust, so maybe that's not wholly true.

Retracting, retracting, retracting. . .

Moet is FRENCH. Has NEVER been Dutch. Named after Claude Moet. But the "t" is still pronounced.

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I just noticed this. The 't' is pronounced in both moet and jouet. The accent that I'm not typing in here is le tréma.

French language site

This is confirmed by the native speaker standing next to me. Unless Pierre Jouet has an idiosyncratic reason for breaking a rule of pronunciation.

[Pan]

[...]This led to them calling to the bartender for “duo infusione!” at which EVERYone in the placed cracked up.  In local idiom, they had decisively demanded two enemas.[...]

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An then there's the meaning of preservatif in French and preservativo in Italian vs. the meaning of preservative in English. (The French and Italian false friends mean "condom," which caused some puzzled reactions when I attempted to translate a joke that uses the word "preservatives" in the punch line.) But false friends are a different topic than pronunciation.

[C_Ruark]

I just noticed this. The 't' is pronounced in both moet and jouet. The accent that I'm not typing in here is le tréma.

This is confirmed by the native speaker standing next to me. Unless Pierre Jouet has an idiosyncratic reason for breaking a rule of pronunciation.

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Oh, those funny French guys...

... how do you say "Les Halles" again???

Cheers,

- CSR

[malarkey]

re: fazool, proscuit, motzaRELL.. and especially "bru-shetta" I gotta admit these REALLY bug me. But I studied Italian with a woman from Tuscany, and what someone here said is true, this is not 'proper' italian, and it is looked down upon as sounding uneducated. She trained me well I guess! The one that made her crazy was the mis-use of "panini" which is plural; panino is singular, but you hardly ever see it used.

[jgarner53]

The one that made her crazy was the mis-use of "panini" which is plural; panino is singular, but you hardly ever see it used.

Same goes for biscotti. If you just have one, you have a biscotto. Just one one of them Russian meat pie thingies? Ask for a pirazhok (pir-ah-zhoke) instead of a piroshki, which is plural.

[therese]

Same goes for biscotti. If you just have one, you  have a biscotto. Just one one of them Russian meat pie thingies? Ask for a pirazhok (pir-ah-zhoke) instead of a piroshki, which is plural.

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So clearly one should just make a point of ordering more than one.

A classic ploy for getting around not knowing the gender of something: can't remember where it's un biere or une biere? No problem, just order deux bieres.

Plurals in Italian are actually sort of complicated (and not even taking into account some of the weirder exceptions) and I really can't get too upset when non-speakers screw them up.

It is cool when you see it done correctly. An pizzeria here in town (Italian-owned trendo place) lists "pizzas" as "pizze". Too bad their pizze suck.

[tommy]

I think that the "hipness" of "pasta fazool," "gabagool," "moozadell," "manicott," and so on can be traced directly to the cuisine described in this particular cookbook, involving a certain fictional northern NJ family of great notoriety.

Meanwhile, if you tried to order some "gabagool" at Tony's Colonial on Atwells Ave here in Providence, they'd look at you like the knucklehead you are.

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maybe it (sopranos book, show) helped spread the word, but 3 generations of my italian-american family have been using those pronunciations (though yes, never thinking it is "hip"). we're from baltimore, northern jersey, and ny. i don't think anyone in my family who uses those words thinks they are speaknig italian. i sure don't. but it's part of my heritage. it's part of the way we speak. and i'm quite proud of my heritage. also, i don't think we're knuckleheads.

and i pronounce the t in Moet.

Edited May 24, 2005 by tommy (log)

[The Hersch]

[A classic ploy for getting around not knowing the gender of something: can't remember where it's un biere or une biere? No problem, just order deux bieres.

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In Portuguese, though, you have to order three.

[MaxH]

... Pasta Fagioli, which in the delis in NJ is corrupted to Pasta Fazool. (I cringe when people say "Fazool" , they think its so hip!)

These things do happen. As when people in the US without much mathematical training began (in the 1980s) saying parameters "when they meant perimeters but were trying to be hip," as one professional writer complained publicly then; and despite continued advice from other literate writers, competent guidebooks, and everyone who knows what a parameter really is. Lately they've been doing it again, with "nonlinear." These things happen.

You mean like when they say something is growing logarithmically when it's actually growing exponentially?

There, it's at least the right general idea (only backwards). I've heard no exasperated writer yet describe it as trying to be hip. The others are more like Alice in Wonderland. Alice converses at one point with a serene and knowledgeable caterpillar, smoking a hookah. She quotes some verse ...

Caterpillar: That is not said right.

Alice: Not QUITE right, I'm afraid; some of the words have got altered.

Caterpillar: It is wrong from beginning to end.

[therese]

A classic ploy for getting around not knowing the gender of something: can't remember where it's un biere or une biere? No problem, just order deux bieres.

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In Portuguese, though, you have to order three.

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Is this because I need to be extra drunk?

Or because you still have to know the gender of said item to correctly ask for two of them?

[The Hersch]

A classic ploy for getting around not knowing the gender of something: can't remember where it's un biere or une biere? No problem, just order deux bieres.

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In Portuguese, though, you have to order three.

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Is this because I need to be extra drunk?

Or because you still have to know the gender of said item to correctly ask for two of them?

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The latter, although I like both answers. But yes, Portuguese inflects two-zies for gender: duas cervejas, dois cafes.

[therese]

The latter, although I like both answers. But yes, Portuguese inflects two-zies for gender: duas cervejas, dois cafes.

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Well, this presents a problem. Because I either revert to ordering just one beer at a time, or go ahead and order three.

Edited May 25, 2005 by therese (log)

[Milagai]

maybe this is the right thread for me to make the following plea:

folks, the correct pronunciation is BAHSmati (for basmati rice)

NOT NOT NOT basMAATi.

it's not just a cute regional variation to say it differently,

there are solid linguistic reasons (based on consistent spelling)

why the former is right the latter a tooth-grinding mispronunciation...

(now off my soapbox)

milagai

[Susan in FL]

maybe this is the right thread for me to make the following plea:

folks, the correct pronunciation is BAHSmati (for basmati rice)

NOT NOT NOT basMAATi.

it's not just a cute regional variation to say it differently,

there are solid linguistic reasons (based on consistent spelling)

why the former is right the latter a tooth-grinding mispronunciation...

(now off my soapbox)

milagai

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Thank you! I didn't know that.