Food Pronunciation Guide for the Dim-witted

plattetude · May 19, 2005

At least German is always consistent.
ei is always pronounced eye (e.g. eigen = eye-gen)
ie is always pronounced ee (e.g. riesen = ree-sen)
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so if it starts with an "e" it's pronounced "i" and vice versa? how <i> helpful</i>
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A little late to the game here, but I thought I'd add a cent or two.

The thing about vowels in U.S. English is they're so diphthong-laden. Years of singing in multiple languages (Latin, German, French, Italian, Czech, Polish, Old Church Slavonic, yadda yadda) has made me particularly sensitive to this, how to break down vowel sounds into component parts.

Take the letter "i", for instance. We pronounce the letter "i" as a diphthong: sound it out slowly -- ah-ee. Where's the "i" sound in that, really? Put it in a word -- there's "bit," which is pure short "i" but has neither the "ah" component nor the "ee" component. And then there's "bite," which has the "ah," the "ee," and no "i" at all.

And the letter "a" -- eh-ee. In short vowel form: "fat." No "eh," no "ee." Long vowel: "fate," or to keep this even slightly on topic, "bacon." All "eh" and "ee", no "a." Oh, and then there's "father", which is really a pure Latin "a" (think saying "ahhh" with a tongue depressor) and is completely different from the short "a" of "fat."

And of course, as the above indicates, for every rule can be a gajillion exceptions. And then throw in dialects. Fuggedabouddit.

It must be maddening for people to try to learn English.

Christopher

The Hersch · May 19, 2005

My Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, which is not new at all (printed 1979) lists 4 pronunciations of the word 'basil', in this order: "BAZel", "BAYSel", "BASel" and "BAYZel". I'm surpised, because I've always only heard the 4th pronunciation when discussing the herb and thought it was the preferred American pronunciation. At any rate, this is not new. Sorry, not going to join you on this one.
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1979 not new??? :huh:

Perhaps my time-line is a bit off. But BAYZEL is a relatively new American innovation, not to be found in Webster's Second (1934). Okay, that's more than 25 or 30 years ago. But also not encountered in my 1960s childhood.

yslee · May 19, 2005

Presumably, "BAYZel" is given last because it's the most marginal/recent pronunciation...

Edited May 19, 2005 by yslee (log)

**Smithy** · May 19, 2005

Hmph. :hmmm: OK, let's take a poll.

How do you pronounce the name of the herb 'basil', and where are you from?

The choices are "BAZZel", "BAYZel", "BASSel" or "BAYSel".

I find it difficult to believe my broad circle of friends is so, erm, uneducated about this particular item!

And please, let's not have any of that arrant pedantism about ending sentences with prepositions, or starting them with conjunctions. :raz:

jsolomon · May 19, 2005

MISS-ter FAHL-tee

sheesh... :wacko: :biggrin: :laugh:

AmyDaniel · May 19, 2005

ok, I have not read all 10 pages so hopefully no one mentioned this one, but the Spanish word "pinxtos" is pronounced pinztos, right?
Elie
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I didn't read the other pages either, but I'll take a stab:

The "x-" takes a "ch-" sound in Catalan and Basque (I speak/read/write neither, so someone with more knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong), so "pinxtos" will be pronounced "peen-chohs".

At least that's how I say it. :biggrin:

menton1 · May 19, 2005

How about these 2:

Reims, France the capital of Champagne Country, is pronounced Raanzh (with the "n" sound in the rear of the mouth.)

Then there is Pasta Fagioli, which in the delis in NJ is corrupted to Pasta Fazool. (I cringe when people say "Fazool" , they think its so hip!) (The correct way is "Fagioli", I've been told!)

P.S. This is better than the guy in the NY Times Sunday Magazine correcting everybody's grammar!! :laugh:

Susan in FL · May 19, 2005

Smithy, I say BAYSel and that's the way I've always heard it pronounced.

:unsure: :smile:

Pan · May 19, 2005

Hmph. OK, let's take a poll.
How do you pronounce the name of the herb 'basil', and where are you from?
The choices are "BAZZel", "BAYZel", "BASSel" or "BAYSel".
[...]
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BA-zzel, and I'm from the Upper West Side of Manhattan.

But I really think that some of this thread, involving claims that pronunciations of English words in certain dialects and native-English-speaker accents are "wrong," is off base. Where are all the Queen's English advocates when we need them to tell us that all we North Americans speak funny? :hmmm: :raz:

mrbigjas · May 20, 2005

But I really think that some of this thread, involving claims that pronunciations of English words in certain dialects and native-English-speaker accents are "wrong," is off base. Where are all the Queen's English advocates when we need them to tell us that all we North Americans speak funny?

everybody speaks funny to someone else, the way i see it. i thought this thread would be more about getting by than about being super-precisely correct--i mean, if you're an english-only speaker and see the word mille-feuille, there's just no way that you can guess how to pronounce it, but if someone gets you close, maybe you can order one sometime.

i guess what i'm saying is there's kind of a lot of nitpicking going on about various types of nasal fricatives and postdental labiolars and whatnot, but if we can give each other an idea of how to say things, we can generally get close enough that a native speaker could comprehend what we want and give it to us--and after all, isn't that the point?

now, i'll help you folks out with one: in philadelphia, the word 'water' is pronounced 'wooder.' but if you order a 'water' we'll know what you mean....

Pan · May 20, 2005

[...]now, i'll help you folks out with one: in philadelphia, the word 'water' is pronounced 'wooder.' but if you order a 'water' we'll know what you mean....
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New York, too.

Someday, I'll tell you a funny little story about ordering a "glassa wooder" in a diner in "Greensburuh, Noth Carolahna." It's funnier in person.

Chris Amirault · May 20, 2005

Someday, I'll tell you a funny little story about ordering a "glassa wooder" in a diner in "Greensburuh, Noth Carolahna." It's funnier in person.
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That does sound "funny" to my Rhode Island ears, Michael -- "funny" like totally wicked weird. Cuz everyone knows ya don't gedda glassa waddah from the waitah; ya get wadda from the bubbla. Jeez louise.

touaregsand · May 20, 2005

Someday, I'll tell you a funny little story about ordering a "glassa wooder" in a diner in "Greensburuh, Noth Carolahna." It's funnier in person.
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That does sound "funny" to my Rhode Island ears, Michael -- "funny" like totally wicked weird. Cuz everyone knows ya don't gedda glassa waddah from the waitah; ya get wadda from the bubbla. Jeez louise.
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I've been there. I traveled a bit in the South for a while and at one time was able to mimic a range of dialects. I don't have much trouble understanding different dialects even the UK ones. But a woman from Oklahoma just floored me with how much twang she put into every word.

In LA you know, like, you ask for, water, like, "I'm like totally thirsty, can I like have a glass of water like right away?"

Which reminds me of the time I met some Texas Valley girls. That was really weird. They were really impressed that I was at the epicenter of the Valley girl movement. In my defense I have to mention that I was more deathrocker, but dude did I use alot of hairspray.

**Smithy** · May 20, 2005

Someday, I'll tell you a funny little story about ordering a "glassa wooder" in a diner in "Greensburuh, Noth Carolahna." It's funnier in person.
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That does sound "funny" to my Rhode Island ears, Michael -- "funny" like totally wicked weird. Cuz everyone knows ya don't gedda glassa waddah from the waitah; ya get wadda from the bubbla. Jeez louise.
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I've been there. I traveled a bit in the South for a while and at one time was able to mimic a range of dialects. I don't have much trouble understanding different dialects even the UK ones. But a woman from Oklahoma just floored me with how much twang she put into every word.
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My aunt used to be a librarian in central California, where a lot of Dust Bowl refugees had settled. One day a little boy came to her desk and asked her, "how do you spell rat?" She kindly replied, "r - a - t", to which he responded, "no, I don't mean like a mousey rat, I mean rat like rat now."

Getting back to food, my Georgia-born grandmother went to the Bahamas on a vacation one time. She later related this conversation with a hotel waiter:

She: "Do you have any peyahs?"

He: "Excuse me, any what?"

She: "Peyahs. Peyahs." Seeing his nonplussed look, she spelled it out: "P - e - a - r - s"

He: "Oh, you mean peers! Peers!"

(She got her pears.)

Chloe · May 22, 2005

Pinxtos should be pintxos

tx is a Basque spelling of the sound ch, which is ch in English too.

pintxos = pinchos

Chloe

North Portugal

Brad Ballinger · May 23, 2005

I'll comment on some of the wine questions, even if they are from three months ago.

Gruner Veltliner - yes, the umlaut over the u, and felt-lean-er, but I've heard the accent on either FELT or LEAN.

Moet Chandon - yes, it's Dutch and the "t" is pronounced. Same with Perrier Jouet.

Reims - as indicated above, Rahns. But if you are making a car rental reservation by telephone with an English-speaking agency, say Reems. I learned this when I went to pick up my car in Reims, handed my reservation to the car rental agent only to learn they didn't have a car for me. But one was waiting for me in Rennes.

Vacqueyras - Vah-keh-RAHS with the "s" being pronounced (same with Gigondas - zhee-goan-DAHS).

Pouilly Fuisse - hard to type phonetically, but Poo-(y)eee Fwee-say.

Chambolle-Musigny - Shahm-BOHL Moo-see-NYEE

And no one asked but: Cos d'Estournel is Kahs Day-tour-NEL

Riedel is REE-del

There are plenty of online audio guides for pronunciation of French, German, and Italian wines through a simple Google search.

MaxH · May 23, 2005

Gruner Veltliner - yes, the umlaut over the u, and felt-lean-er, but I've heard the accent on either FELT or LEAN.

Brad, I've been seeing people write this online lately who are English-speakers, particularly in the US. But I've been going to Vienna restaurants and wine bars and ordering GV off and on for at least 20 years, where the wine is mainstream, and I have never noticed anyone in that town, in my experience for what it's worth, stress any but the first syllable of VELTliner. (It's a mild stress too.)

Reims - ...

Maybe the organizers of this site could consider a moratorium on mentions of pronunciations of Reims (spelled Rheims in English traditionally BTW), or put the words into the filter list for automatic censorship, or, of course, an FAQ list. (It's among the most notorious prununciations in French and without action, we are doomed to repetitions of the issue every dew screenfulls, by newbies who don't read back enough.)

-- Max

Brad Ballinger · May 23, 2005

Brad, I've been seeing people write this online lately who are English-speakers, particularly in the US. But I've been going to Vienna restaurants and wine bars and ordering GV off and on for at least 20 years, where the wine is mainstream, and I have never noticed anyone in that town, in my experience for what it's worth, stress any but the first syllable of VELTliner. (It's a mild stress too.)
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Good to know. I've not heard it pronounced in Austria, so I'm limited to what my ears pick up here. I'll go with a native speaker over an industry source any day of the week.

MaxH · May 23, 2005

... Pasta Fagioli, which in the delis in NJ is corrupted to Pasta Fazool. (I cringe when people say "Fazool" , they think its so hip!)

These things do happen. As when people in the US without much mathematical training began (in the 1980s) saying parameters "when they meant perimeters but were trying to be hip," as one professional writer complained publicly then; and despite continued advice from other literate writers, competent guidebooks, and everyone who knows what a parameter really is. Lately they've been doing it again, with "nonlinear." These things happen.

MaxH · May 23, 2005

Someday, I'll tell you a funny little story about ordering a "glassa wooder" in a diner in "Greensburuh, Noth Carolahna." It's funnier in person.

Sounds interesting! Here's one related to this thread, that works OK in writing. The Italian Tea Incident.

This comes from old friends of mine, an academic couple around Cambridge, Massachusetts.

They traveled a lot and were used to improvising in new languages. (Please forgive me if I botch the linguistic detail here: the meaning will be clear enough!) Arriving late in a small town somewhere in Italy in cold weather about 1970, they came into a crowded bar which was the only place open, and sought a couple of glasses of tea, or herb tea, something hot and copious. They spoke no Italian, but did have another Latin language, to which they’d been encouraged already to add an “E” sound at the ends of words to approximate Italian. This led to them calling to the bartender for “duo infusione!” at which EVERYone in the placed cracked up. In local idiom, they had decisively demanded two enemas. Of course the crowd understood the situation, and they were warmly received and made a fuss over. As is also typical at such times, in Latin cultures.

Chufi · May 23, 2005

Moet Chandon - yes, it's Dutch and the "t" is pronounced. Same with Perrier Jouet.
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Moet & Chandon is Dutch??

Brad Ballinger · May 23, 2005

Moet Chandon - yes, it's Dutch and the "t" is pronounced. Same with Perrier Jouet.
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Moet & Chandon is Dutch??
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Sorry, I'm wrong. I was thinking Jouet, and got carried away. And with Jouet I'm only going on the word of someone I trust, so maybe that's not wholly true.

Retracting, retracting, retracting. . .

Moet is FRENCH. Has NEVER been Dutch. Named after Claude Moet. But the "t" is still pronounced.

Chufi · May 23, 2005

Moet is FRENCH. Has NEVER been Dutch. Named after Claude Moet. But the "t" is still pronounced.
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hehe. For a minute I was getting all carried away by the thought that there actually was such a thing as Dutch champagne :biggrin:

Chris Amirault · May 23, 2005

... Pasta Fagioli, which in the delis in NJ is corrupted to Pasta Fazool. (I cringe when people say "Fazool" , they think its so hip!)

I think that the "hipness" of "pasta fazool," "gabagool," "moozadell," "manicott," and so on can be traced directly to the cuisine described in this particular cookbook, involving a certain fictional northern NJ family of great notoriety.

Meanwhile, if you tried to order some "gabagool" at Tony's Colonial on Atwells Ave here in Providence, they'd look at you like the knucklehead you are.