Food Shopping in Philly

[MarketStEl]

I realize that the category this board is under is "Restaruants, Cuisine and Travel," which means that we should be talking about eating out. But I notice that there's material here that is only useful for those who enjoy eating in as well.

Maybe I haven't searched hard enough, or maybe this has already been talked to death on one of the general boards (I know there's a grocery store survey active in General Food Topics), but I haven't seen much talk about the food shopping experience here yet.

Maybe it's because, as those Clemens Family Markets ads on the radio imply, nobody really likes to go grocery shopping. Maybe I'm one of five people in the Philadelphia region who do, but I find that hard to imagine.

Or maybe it's because we haven't had a chance to share our favorites and must-avoids, our pleasures and pitfalls, lately.

In which case, let's have at it. I'll start with mine:

Fave: The Reading Terminal Market. Goes without saying, IMO. A great marriage of variety and quality. The produce is both better and cheaper than what you'll find at the supermarket, and you can't beat the atmosphere. Who needs Wegmans when you have this homegrown gem?

Fave: 9th Street ("Italian") Market. "Italian" is increasingly a misnomer, as Asians and Mexicans now make up a large part of the mix. As a result, you will now find international variety here that you probably won't find anywhere else in town--especially when you throw in the nearby Asian supermarkets on Washington Avenue. And if you're a bargain hunter, as I am, you won't beat the values you find here. When buying produce, however, unless you're shopping at Judy and Stan's stand at the market's north end, it's caveat emptor--pay attention as the clerks fill your bag with 10-for-$1 peppers. (I've noticed that the clerks don't object as much as they used to if you pick or point out the items you want. My guess is that this is a function of changing demographics.) The Italian Market also includes one of the best butcher shops in town (Esposito's) and the best cheesemonger (DiBruno Brothers--though Downtown Cheese in the RTM gives them a run on exotic varieties, DiB's still has the best combination of variety, service and price).

Must avoid: Shopping at Pathmark. I will be forever scarred by a trek to the Whitman Plaza store a few summers back to take advantage of a really great ground beef special (I was planning a cookout). The store was the size of two football fields, but they used all this space to carry 60 different sizes of the same four brands rather than four different sizes of 60 brands like they should have. The decor was one step up from industrial -- which I wouldn't mind if I was specifically headed for a warehouse store (I buy frozen veggies at Save-A-Lot, fer Chrissakes), but I wasn't -- and the entire store staff seemed overworked. And their private label stinks.

Interesting diversion: My neighborhood Super Cruise--I mean, Fresh. So far, I've only picked up groceries here, though.

[MarketStEl]

I know it's odd to follow oneself up, but I'm puzzled now.

81 page views and no replies?

You can't tell me that everybody on this board dines out all the time, or that my own preferences are universally agreed upon. Or is the local supermarket/food shopping scene so bland and/or undistinguished that it's not worth commenting on?

[wkl]

I know it's odd to follow oneself up, but I'm puzzled now.

81 page views and no replies?

You can't tell me that everybody on this board dines out all the time, or that my own preferences are universally agreed upon.  Or is the local supermarket/food shopping scene so bland and/or undistinguished that it's not worth commenting on?

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My favorites are similiar to yours.Reading Terminal, Italian Market,etc.The diffrence for me is I drive up from Wilmington to grocery shop about once a month.I like grocery shopping and the options in Wilmington are poor to mediocre.

We have no Whole Foods or local producers market, just the usual suspects Pathmark,Super Fresh, Super G etc.One interesting place is Janssens but it is REALLY expensive.

Anyway, I think the grocery shopping scene in Philly is quite good.

[cinghiale]

I'll bite:

The Asian markets at 6/Washington and 11/Washington.

The (seasonal, of course) farmers' markets at Headhouse Square and South/Passyunk.

The fish distribution center off Packer Avenue (particularly Samuels and Sons).

George Wells for dry-aged beef.

Assouline & Ting for, inter alia, caviar/roe.

[Holly Moore]

George Wells for dry-aged beef.

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Does Wells sell to the public at the plant off Delaware Ave?

I'd add two "outsiders"/relatively recent arrivals to the list. Trader Joe's on Market Street and a place I finally gritted my teeth and got to, Costco out behind the King of Prussia Mall. I am not a fan of warehouse stores and even less of a fan of the traffic between Center City and KOP and the whole KOP mall complex, but I grudingly admit that Costco has some great quality meats, seafood and even produce, and even greater value.

[MarketStEl]

George Wells for dry-aged beef.

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I'd add two "outsiders"/relatively recent arrivals to the list. Trader Joe's on Market Street and a place I finally gritted my teeth and got to, Costco out behind the King of Prussia Mall. I am not a fan of warehouse stores and even less of a fan of the traffic between Center City and KOP and the whole KOP mall complex, but I grudingly admit that Costco has some great quality meats, seafood and even produce, and even greater value.

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Since I'm carless, I don't shop TJ's as much as I'd like--I'd probably frequent it more if it were east of Broad. The one time I did visit, I liked what I saw: Whole Foods merchandise at Acme prices. It looks like they manage this by stocking only private-label merchandise, which brings up a relevant aside: Whole Foods' "everyday value" store brands, 365 and 365 Organic, actually offer good value and are competitive with regular supermarkets' prices.

And since I'm carless, I doubt I will experience Costco anytime within the foreseeable future--a 10-minute subway ride to TJ's for specialty coffee or cheese is one thing and a 30-minute bus trek out the Schuylkill for cheap steaks entirely another. But I would like to see what makes this place so popular. When did Costco come to town?

Unfortunately, since this is Pennsylvania, none of us will be able to experience one other thing both stores are known for in California: really good inexpensive wine. I guess we will have to wait to see if Two-Buck Chuck ever becomes a "Chairman's Selection" at the PLCB superstores (I will do the "Premium Collection" stores the honor of not calling them "State Stores," for they do now offer better selection and a little better service than what we have long known and hated).

[Andrew Fenton]

Most of the high points have been hit already, I think. The biggest disappointment for me, food-wise, is the quality of supermarkets in town. While I love my local Superfresh (5th & Spruce) because of the super-friendly, professional workers there, it's pretty small and not un-dingy. It can't hold a candle to the massive supermarkets in cities like Atlanta or Seattle, with their buildings the size of airplane hangars housing legions of vegetables and fifty different kinds of sea salt.

[Though I did discover that the Columbus Blvd. Superfresh-- aka the "Überfresh"-- has a pretty substantial selection of ethnic foods. And not the ethnicities you'd necessarily expect: do you want to try Polish soda pop or mineral water or instant borscht? You got it. Bizarre English "food" products like Marmite toffee or Ye Queen's Owne Baked Beanes? Yup, they're there. Who knew?]

The addition of Trader Joe's to our fair city has been a massive boon; great price-to-quality ratio for most everything there. Re: Two-Buck-Chuck... well, I've had it, and we're not missing out on much. It's cheap, but not exactly what you'd call tasty.

The best part about food shopping in Phila. is that it's holistic: at the RTM or the Italian Market, you can walk from shop to shop, pick out bargains or specialties, talk with people, et cetera. And since all the vendors are integrated into a matrix of restaurants, kitchen-supply stores and so on, you can take your time and nosh as you go.

[NulloModo]

My favorites are similiar to yours.Reading Terminal, Italian Market,etc.The diffrence for me is I drive up from Wilmington to grocery shop about once a month.I like grocery shopping and the options in Wilmington are poor to mediocre.

We have no Whole Foods or local producers market, just the usual suspects Pathmark,Super Fresh, Super G etc.One interesting place is Janssens but it is REALLY expensive.

Anyway, I think the grocery shopping scene in Philly is quite good.

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Heya, as advice from another DE person: Have you checked out the Trader Joe's on Concord Pike (next to Sullivan's and Tweeter, across from where the American Appliance used to be). It might not be the Italian Market, but it is a big step up from other grocery stores in the area. I trek up from Bear whenever I want some good deals on good stuff and can will myself to deal with the traffic on the pike.

[cinghiale]

George Wells for dry-aged beef.

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Does Wells sell to the public at the plant off Delaware Ave?

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Yep, although they don't really publicize it. Enter the building through the loading dock on, I think, Fishtown St. (going north on Delaware, it's the hard left, with Frankford Ave. being the soft left). Usually, no one pays you no nevermind, so just go upstairs to the office. They'll ask you what you want. Most of the time, they're nice enough to take five minutes to work with you in between taking retail orders. I once had a dry-aged rib roast that was out of this world. The only problem? You shouldn't expect to receive the precise (or even approximate) weight ordered for a small order. They usually say, "You'll get it how they cut it." I now expect to get more than I really want.

Here's a little info on their aging process.

[rlibkind]

I'm a dedicated RTM shopper, as anyone who's read this board knows. That said, some thoughts about some other markets in town and environs:

TJ's: If you're planning a cocktail party, stop by the freezer case for hors d'oeurvres. If you make the drinks strong enough, nobody will notice how second rate they are. I do, however, like TJ's cheap chocolates, particularly the chocolate covered orange jells (orange sticks, they call them); it's better living through chemistry. And I don't know anywhere else in town where you can pick up Usinger's brats; now if only they stocked the beef franks.

Whole Foods: The produce is overpriced and second rate. The fish department is much improved; it used to be that everything was old; now, it appears that only the steamer clams are dead. Fish prices, however, are exorbitant; generally 30-50% more than you'd pay at one of the good fishmongers at the RTM or Ninth Street; and although WF fish quality has improved, it's usually better at a dedicated fishmongers. The meat depatment is another story; unless you're going for dry aged prime (which very few stores carry; for this, take out a loan and go to Harry Ochs at the RTM), Whole Foods does a very good job with meats red and white and rose. I've had excellent veal, chicken and beef there, and the prices have been fair. (I made their St. Louis pork ribs on the grill a few weeks ago, using Mark Bittman's slow-cooked dry rub recipe, and they were superb.)

Supermarkets. When I don't want to travel far, I hit the Super Fresh on Columbus/Delaware. Otherwise, I generally trek across the river to the Cherry Hill Shop Rite for my staples. They also have a full-service kosher store within a store where you can find $10 a pound presliced packaged Marshall nova. An even better ethnic selection than you'll find at the Super Fresh, which I agree with Andrew is pretty good. Another Shop Rite I sometimes frequent is the one in Port Richmond on Aramingo, just a 15 minute drive from my house in Fairmount via Vine Street and I-95 (when there's no traffic); it serves a different clientele than Cherry Hill, and its stocking selection reflects that. The Shop Rite in South Philly is okay, but I find it a bit hectic and difficult to manoeuvre. The advantage of going to Cherry Hill is that I can stop by Canal's or Buy Rite for booze, or even Moore Brothers if I'm feeling high falutin..

Edited to add pork ribs at WF.

Edited November 27, 2004 by rlibkind (log)

[Holly Moore]

And I don't know anywhere else in town where you can pick up Usinger's brats; now if only they stocked the beef franks.

I wrote them, suggesting that. Got back a somewhat terse response that translated to "ain't gonna happen." In protest I boycotted Trader Joes for 5 days.

... dry aged prime (which very few stores carry; for this, take out a loan and go to Harry Ochs at the RTM),

Will be broiling up one of Mr. Ochs finest rib eyes the evening. They are sufficiently savvy that they built an ATM machine into a corner of their display case to cover unanticipated aged dry beef purchases.

I've found that Whole Food's Coleman beef steaks undependable. Sometimes excellent, sometimes reminiscent of grain fed cardboard.

[MarketStEl]

Most of the high points have been hit already, I think.  The biggest disappointment for me, food-wise, is the quality of supermarkets in town.  While I love my local Superfresh (5th & Spruce) because of the super-friendly, professional workers there, it's pretty small and not un-dingy.  It can't hold a candle to the massive supermarkets in cities like Atlanta or Seattle, with their buildings the size of airplane hangars housing legions of vegetables and fifty different kinds of sea salt. 

Supermarkets in the A&P family (Super Fresh is a sibling), I'm afraid, have long enjoyed reputations for dinginess--I recall that being as distinctive a feature of the A&P nearest my home in Kansas City as the ground-to-order coffee (no longer a distinctive feature of A&P stores, thanks to a more educated public; A&P has even capitalized on this by turning its former private label, Eight O'Clock, into a national brand).

As for those massive supermarkets in Atlanta and Seattle, I will bet that -- like the Uberfresh -- they are surrounded by acres of parking and not all that pedestrian-friendly. I know I can get to Pier 70 on the 64 bus, but it is a bit of a schlep. While it is certainly not up to modern standards size-wise, the Super Cruise (10th and South store) scores very well on the urban-friendliness index, as does the South Street Whole Foods in the next block. They do this by putting the parking on top of the store. I'll grant that this costs more than spreading it out in front of the store, but I'd say it's worth it.

[Though I did discover that the Columbus Blvd. Superfresh-- aka the "Überfresh"-- has a pretty substantial selection of ethnic foods.  And not the ethnicities you'd necessarily expect: do you want to try Polish soda pop or mineral water or instant borscht?  You got it.  Bizarre English "food" products like Marmite toffee or Ye Queen's Owne Baked Beanes?  Yup, they're there.  Who knew?]

I'm entitled to a free rug shampooer rental from Super Fresh thanks to my dropping lots of bucks there over the years on my club card. I was told I'd have to go to the Pier 70 store to make good on the offer.

The addition of Trader Joe's to our fair city has been a massive boon; great price-to-quality ratio for most everything there.  Re: Two-Buck-Chuck... well, I've had it, and we're not missing out on much.  It's cheap, but not exactly what you'd call tasty.

Relative to jug wine, or the stuff in the bag-in-boxes, is it better, worse or about the same?

The best part about food shopping in Phila. is that it's holistic: at the RTM or the Italian Market, you can walk from shop to shop, pick out bargains or specialties, talk with people, et cetera.  And since all the vendors are integrated into a matrix of restaurants, kitchen-supply stores and so on, you can take your time and nosh as you go.

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Not to mention that you can buy wine from local wineries (or in the case of 9th Street, wine packagers) within both of these markets. Blue Mountain Vineyards at the RTM has some quite good stuff; Philadelphia Wine Company on 9th Street is more run-of-the-mill. (And the PLCB has the good sense to put a State Store right next door to the RTM. The closest State Store to the Italian Market is two blocks west of Cheesesteak Corner.)

[Andrew Fenton]

As for those massive supermarkets in Atlanta and Seattle, I will bet that -- like the Uberfresh -- they are surrounded by acres of parking and not all that pedestrian-friendly. 

In Atlanta, yes. (But then everything in Atlanta is surrounded by acres of parking.) Seattle is marginally more pedestrian-friendly overall, and very friendly in a few neighborhoods. In those areas (Queen Anne, Capitol Hill, etc.) there are also some good-sized supermarkets. (Though even more impressive than their size is their quality: they're miles ahead of us in playing to the yuppie market).

Relative to jug wine, or the stuff in the bag-in-boxes, is it better, worse or about the same?

My experience with the Two Buck Chuck was the following. The first time I went to a Trader Joe's, I noticed a display with these three dollar bottles of wine. Hey, cheap wine, thinks I; even if it's only okay, it's still a good deal. My mom and I bought a couple of varieties (can't remember now what they were). I think we each took about three sips from each bottle and set the rest aside, hoping the other one would finish it off. I don't think either of us did, and I'm pretty sure it went down the sink. Bottom line: there are perfectly satisfying $8 wines out there, and I'd rather shell out an extra fin for that.

[mrbigjas]

i like the crappy supermarket at 15th & spruce sometimes, for a couple reasons:

1. they still have a butcher on premises, and you can buy things like veal kidneys & breast, soup bones, shin meat, tongue, chicken and turkey necks, etc. most of the regular supermarkets don't stock that sort of thing.

2. they have these weird anachronistic products on the shelves, with packaging that hasn't changed since the 1950s, like LEM lemon pie filling, and all these other things with line drawings of 'ethnic' chefs and grandmothers on them... kind of like the things in the gallery of forgettable food at lileks.com.

other than that, i stick with the terminal and the italian market and sue's produce and fish and coffee for most of my daily needs. what i really wish is that we could get a high-quality butcher downtown (where by downtown i mean west center city, so i could stop in on my way home from work). man i wish i knew how to do that stuff. i think there's a real market there waiting to be tapped.

[herbacidal]

and I'd rather shell out an extra fin for that.

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Fin means $5? What's the origin of that?

[philadining]

I grew up in upstate NY surrounded by Wegmans, so it's kind-of comforting that they've invaded Downingtown, Allentown, Princeton -- don't blink, there might be one around the corner from you by next thursday.

As huge, commercial, big parking lot, mainstream supermarkets go, they're pretty great. The produce selection is very broad, cheese is surprisingly good (I found a Point Reyes Bleu that I'd fallen in love with at Django, and a Petit L'Edel de Cleron that always seems to be sold-out at RTM), seafood isn't bad, meats are good if you talk to the butchers.

No supermarket can replace the specialized places in the Italian Market or RTM, I always go to one of those if I'm making a special meal (and I need a dose of friendly abuse from the guys at Claudios every once in a while) but if you need to get stuff fast, and/or are stuck out in the burbs, you could do worse than a Wegmans.

[Andrew Fenton]

and I'd rather shell out an extra fin for that.

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Fin means $5? What's the origin of that?

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Offhand, I don't know; it's just obsolete slang, from the 1940's or thereabouts.

Twenty-three skiddoo, baby!

edit: according to the OED, it's from the English slang "finnip" or "finnif"- a five-pound note. Maybe from the Yiddish pronunciation of fünf.

Edited November 29, 2004 by Andrew Fenton (log)

[MarketStEl]

[re: Seattle supermarkets] (Though even more impressive than their size is their quality: they're miles ahead of us in playing to the yuppie market).

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I arrived in Philly just as the whole "yuppie" phenomenon was peaking (I have in my possession a rather entertaining book called Yuppies Invade My Home at Dinnnertime; it is a chronicle of the gentrification of Hoboken, N.J., as told through the letters and news stories that ran in the local weekly paper), and I can attest that, the entire series run of thirtysomething notwithstanding, the whole craze generally passed Philadelphia by. We're now seeing gentrification of the culture within the original 1682 city limits and in areas immediately adjacent, but this city remains a blue-collar town at heart. Given that the natives tend to resist things that are not Olde Local Traditions, this means that supermarket gentrification remains an isolated, scattershot phenomenon, occurring here only where Whole Foods or Wegmans have established beachheads or where an existing local chain seizes an unusual opportunity as apparently happened at the Uberfresh (which I will now have to evaluate for myself).

[Mummer]

and I'd rather shell out an extra fin for that.

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Fin means $5? What's the origin of that?

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Sounds like: German for five.

[ellencho]

Ooh! count me as a RTM fan too! My brother just moved here from NY and he loves it too. We even bought our Thanksgiving turkey from Halteman's poultry and drove it all the way to my mom's place in NY. Good lord that turkey only lasted a couple hours after Thanksgiving. Also, my family is addicted to Martin's breakfast sausage links, and every time I go home I make sure to buy a couple lbs beforehand.

And Pathmark has got to be the most disgusting supermarket I've ever stepped foot in, including Sloane's in NYC. I live on the outskirts of Philly near St Joe's and the Pathmark near where I live is beyond filthy. I won't buy any fresh produce from there in fear that someone with dog poop on his/her shoe has tread upon it before I got to it. Not only is it filthy but the cashiers are beyond slow and rude to boot! Sometimes I'm overly smiley and positive around them because I know it pisses them off!

Having lived in Ardmore as well, I have to say I *heart* the Superfresh in Wynnewood. Not only is it clean, but it's well-lit, and the cashiers are pretty fast. They have a good selection and decent prices. I also like the Acme on Montgomery Ave near Narberth. It's small, but clean and they have great service. One time a cashier pointed out that the fish that I was given was stinky (I had a cold at the time) and complained to the manager herself about it.

Genuardis is ok, but it's usually pretty crowded and ever since it got sold to Safeway I've felt as if the workers there couldn't care less.

[wkl]

My favorites are similiar to yours.Reading Terminal, Italian Market,etc.The diffrence for me is I drive up from Wilmington to grocery shop about once a month.I like grocery shopping and the options in Wilmington are poor to mediocre.

We have no Whole Foods or local producers market, just the usual suspects Pathmark,Super Fresh, Super G etc.One interesting place is Janssens but it is REALLY expensive.

Anyway, I think the grocery shopping scene in Philly is quite good.

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Heya, as advice from another DE person: Have you checked out the Trader Joe's on Concord Pike (next to Sullivan's and Tweeter, across from where the American Appliance used to be). It might not be the Italian Market, but it is a big step up from other grocery stores in the area. I trek up from Bear whenever I want some good deals on good stuff and can will myself to deal with the traffic on the pike.

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Nice to see a fellow first stater here!

I go to Trader Joe's occasionaly.From hearing so much about TJ's from others over the years I expected more.Some of what I get there I like alot, but other items I find disapointing.What's up with their produce?It seems like an afterthought at best.

[stephenc]

No mention of Fresh Grocer yet? Theres been like three new openings in the last year/year and a half.

[MarketStEl]

And Pathmark has got to be the most disgusting supermarket I've ever stepped foot in, including Sloane's in NYC.  I live on the outskirts of Philly near St Joe's and the Pathmark near where I live is beyond filthy.  I won't buy any fresh produce from there in fear that someone with dog poop on his/her shoe has tread upon it before I got to it.  Not only is it filthy but the cashiers are beyond slow and rude to boot!  Sometimes I'm overly smiley and positive around them because I know it pisses them off!

Genuardis is ok, but it's usually pretty crowded and ever since it got sold to Safeway I've felt as if the workers there couldn't care less.

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Your comment about Pathmark got me to thinking about the class issue, which has been touched upon in a similar ongoing discussion on the DC/Delmarva board.

It's often been noted that supermarkets in poorer and/or largely minority neighborhoods often charge higher prices and have worse selection than those in more affluent areas, and that this is true even where the stores in question are run by the same company. Safeway (one of the dominant chains in DC, which also has--or had--a large presence in my hometown of Kansas City) seems to be notorious in this regard. In this area, it's not an issue for Safeway, for the Genuardis refused to build or open stores within the Philadelphia city limits. I understand that this was due to the Genuardi family's aversion to unions, but Whole Foods Market and predecessor Fresh Fields were and are union-hostile as well, yet they have opened stores within Philly without trouble.

I've noticed in my travels around the city that, union or not, most of the major players in the local market have few or no stores in the poorer or darker parts of town. Super Fresh used to have several (57th and Vine; Progress Plaza near Temple), but all of these have closed. (The company blamed the closures on the stores' size, but 5th and Pine remains open, and it's no larger than the closed stores.) The field seems to be left to the independents (mainly Thriftway/Shop n Bag, though I noticed on that trek up 5th the other day that there is an indie chain called Cousins' Supermarket that operates stores [mostly former Penn Fruit and Acme stores, judging from the architecture] in Hispanic neighborhoods) -- and to Pathmark, which seems to be the only major chain with a significant inner-city presence in Philly. Could there be a relation between Pathmark's willingness to open stores in black/Hispanic/poor neighborhoods and its reputation among the not-so-poor and not-so-black?

As for Genuardi's under Safeway: Were you living in this area two years ago, when the company ran TV and radio ads featuring employees apologizing outright for the slippage in quality and service? Or last summer, when the United Food and Commercial Workers ran radio ads in support of its organizing campaign at the chain? Those ads also contained references to the chain's deterioration under Safeway management.

[MarketStEl]

No mention of Fresh Grocer yet?  Theres been like three new openings in the last year/year and a half.

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Actually, Freshgrocer deserves kudos for demonstrating that it is possible to operate a really good, high-quality supermarket in the very areas I referred to in my last post. A friend of mine who lives near 52d and Walnut raves about the selection and the appearance of the FreshGrocer that opened last spring at 56th and Market (new construction, not a conversion from another chain).

Food for thought: Would the independent operator of the Freshgrocer stores (which did business in Delaware County under the name Drexeline before opening the first Freshgrocer about four years ago) have done this had Penn not twisted his arm real hard to open a supermarket at 40th and Walnut? Sometimes our preconceptions hamstring us, I guess.

[ellencho]

As for Genuardi's under Safeway: Were you living in this area two years ago, when the company ran TV and radio ads featuring employees apologizing outright for the slippage in quality and service? Or last summer, when the United Food and Commercial Workers ran radio ads in support of its organizing campaign at the chain? Those ads also contained references to the chain's deterioration under Safeway management.

Wow, I've been here for 6 years now and I don't recall those ads at all. What I do remember are folks in the Genuardi's parking lot handing out pamphlets warning customers that Genuardis was now owned by Safeway.

You're definitely right about the quality of supermarkets/class thing. I know of only one exception though, in NY where my parents live, in a middle class shopping center there's a really nice Italian-owned supermarket called Turcos right next door to a pretty dirty Pathmark.