Mustard-forward Chinese dishes

[liuzhou]

16 minutes ago, blue_dolphin said:

Your opinion, perhaps, but not mine.

 

It isn't an opinion. It is a question.

 

I've never read the book. I have no opinion.

Edited February 9, 2021 by liuzhou (log)

[Eatmywords]

 

-Except Chinese grocery stores in China.  lol

 

 

[liuzhou]

9 minutes ago, Eatmywords said:

 

-Except Chinese grocery stores in China.  lol

 

 

 

Let's remember that Irene Kuo left China in the 1940s and prior to that lived a very privileged life in Shanghai - a foreign controlled city. Many things were available to her that wouldn't be available to most Chinese people.

But you are right. Mustard powder or paste is not to be found in Chinese stores in China.

[Katie Meadow]

3 hours ago, liuzhou said:

 

No reason why you should feel ashamed. But it isn't Chinese!

I haven't thought about that little dish of hot mustard in years. But during the 50's and early 60's in NY it was really common to be served egg rolls with duck sauce and mustard. I used to mix the two. It was good! Those were the days of sizzling rice soup. Shrimp with lobster sauce. Clams with black bean sauce. Orange chicken. That would be a typical Sunday night family dinner out. And xmas day. It was more American to me than hamburgers and fries.

[liuzhou]

3 minutes ago, Katie Meadow said:

Clams with black bean sauce.

 

Now that is a dish I often make and eat! But not with black bean sauce from a bottle!

[Eatmywords]

58 minutes ago, Katie Meadow said:

I haven't thought about that little dish of hot mustard in years. But during the 50's and early 60's in NY it was really common to be served egg rolls with duck sauce and mustard. I used to mix the two. It was good! Those were the days of sizzling rice soup. Shrimp with lobster sauce. Clams with black bean sauce. Orange chicken. That would be a typical Sunday night family dinner out. And xmas day. It was more American to me than hamburgers and fries.

I think for most in the US, nothing's changed!

[weinoo]

But what about the spareribs?! Loved the mustard with those too. And as mentioned above, always a little dollop mixed into the wonton soup.

 

Irene Kuo may have lived the life of luxury; but at or about the same time as her book came out, and from authors who may not have been as lucky as she, these were also being released. Since I was taking cooking classes about Chinese food...

 

 

I bought many books. A few much earlier books also made their way into the collection...

 

 

Here are two recipes incorporating mustard. The first is from the Long-Life Chinese Cookbook, above:

 

 

And this one, from a not-pictured book by Bruce Cost (eG-friendly Amazon.com link):

 

 

Who claims mustard and sesame paste combo is a Beijing specialty.

Edited February 9, 2021 by weinoo (log)

[Eatmywords]

Now you know that pork stomach salad was not adapted for American palettes.

[Toliver]

2 hours ago, liuzhou said:

But you are right. Mustard powder or paste is not to be found in Chinese stores in China.

This is a recipe from the 1956 edition Better Homes & Garden New Cookbook that my mom used to make whenever we had ham. It was a sinus-clearing mustard dipping sauce using Colman's Dry Mustard (a British product, I believe) in the bright yellow can. Later editions of that cookbook would omit this recipe completely:

It had to be a fresh can of dry mustard. I think if it sat too long in the cupboard it lost its potency.

 

In many American-Chinese restaurants, if you ordered egg rolls, you'd get a half ketchup, half hot mustard dipping sauce. And if the restaurant was very creative, they would make the ketchup-mustard look like the Ying-Yang symbol in the dish.

The mustard in the restaurants was called "Chinese Hot Mustard" (even though it had nothing to do with China) which you can find in most condiment aisles in American grocery stores.

[Duvel]

55 minutes ago, weinoo said:

Who claims mustard and sesame paste combo is a Beijing specialty.

I remember having that combination once. A quick check through my collection gave at least one more instance of using mustard in a Beijing style dish (from a series of regional cookbooks, published by Wei-Chuan, Taiwan) ...

 

 

[heidih]

As others note it is an expected condiment with eggrolls in Chinese-American places. The little packets are innocuous but the mixed stuff is sinus clearing. Barbara Tropp mentions the sauce with crispy fried spring rolls as a late night study snack in both her books. Her on the ground food experience was as a student in Taiwan. .

Edited February 9, 2021 by heidih (log)

[Katie Meadow]

1 hour ago, Toliver said:

This is a recipe from the 1956 edition Better Homes & Garden New Cookbook that my mom used to make whenever we had ham. It was a sinus-clearing mustard dipping sauce using Colman's Dry Mustard (a British product, I believe) in the bright yellow can. Later editions of that cookbook would omit this recipe completely:

It had to be a fresh can of dry mustard. I think if it sat too long in the cupboard it lost its potency.

 

In many American-Chinese restaurants, if you ordered egg rolls, you'd get a half ketchup, half hot mustard dipping sauce. And if the restaurant was very creative, they would make the ketchup-mustard look like the Ying-Yang symbol in the dish.

The mustard in the restaurants was called "Chinese Hot Mustard" (even though it had nothing to do with China) which you can find in most condiment aisles in American grocery stores.

I don't remember ever being served ketchup as a sub for duck sauce. Duck sauce involves vinegar, soy sauce, apricot or other fruit jam and maybe garlic and ginger or something that approximates that combo.  It was sweet, but not tomato-like.

 

As for books the two I relied on when just learning to use my wok living in SF about 40 years ago,were Regional Cooking of China by Margaret Gin and Henry Chung's Hunan Style Chinese Cookbook. Those were the days when the original hole-in-the-wall Hunan Restaurant had just opened in Chinatown. I don't think there was much more than a counter for service. I lived three blocks up the hill on the cable car route.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Katie Meadow (log)

[Toliver]

1 hour ago, Katie Meadow said:

I don't remember ever being served ketchup as a sub for duck sauce. Duck sauce involves vinegar, soy sauce, apricot or other fruit jam and maybe garlic and ginger or something that approximates that combo.  It was sweet, but not tomato-like.

Growing up on the American West Coast, we were never served Duck Sauce, real or faux. I couldn't pick it out of a police lineup. 

It was always a ketchup/"Chinese" Hot Mustard combo.

Maybe it was a Southern California thing...and still is to this day.

[heidih]

13 minutes ago, Toliver said:

Growing up on the American West Coast, we were never served Duck Sauce, real or faux. I couldn't pick it out of a police lineup. 

It was always a ketchup/"Chinese" Hot Mustard combo.

Maybe it was a Southern California thing...and still is to this day.

 

Yes, here it was/is more a red sweet/sour take on ketchup but not duck sauce. For take away only the packets of mustard and the red stuff in a little plastic cup if you asked. 

 

As to mustard seeds and oil I wonder if the niche of Indian-Chinese has something @shain might want to explore.

[rotuts]

@Kim Shook 

 

in Norther  CA

 

bay area

 

growing up

 

there was both Duck Sauce 

 

Plum Sauce

 

and sinus searing mustard

 

and all in China Town

 

in various small reataurantswhhrenlittle english was spoken

 

Granted, 

 

San Francisco 

 

is not China by any means.

[liuzhou]

18 hours ago, Toliver said:

It was a sinus-clearing mustard dipping sauce using Colman's Dry Mustard (a British product, I believe) in the bright yellow can.

 

Many of  the recipes I've seen for this mysterious "Chinese mustard" use Colman's Mustard. Yes. It is English.

 

My Chinese language food dictionary's entry for "mustard sauce" mentions that it was invented in Durham, England in 1729, then describes French and Italain mustard sauces. No mention of it being used in China.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by liuzhou (log)

[Katie Meadow]

Coleman's plus hot water plus a small amount of vinegar = home made Chinese-American mustard. Or something like that. No idea why I tried to make it a zillion years ago, but that's what I remember. Replace your Coleman's every year. The way to use it up is to make a nice Italian mostarda. That would be various fruits preserved in a bath that includes LOTS of powdered mustard and LOTS of sugar, among other things.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Katie Meadow (log)

[eugenep]

they serve spicy mustard at the dim sum restaurant I used to go to with my wife regularly before covid. 

 

I guess it works with dim sum. I dip my shiew mi in it. 

[Dejah]

On 2/9/2021 at 7:50 AM, liuzhou said:

In southern China, hot mustard, the kind made with dry mustard powder and water is used for dipping pieces of 白切鸡 / Cantonese Poached Chicken.
In my restaurant days, we did a Hot Mustard Chicken dish for the buffet - chicken strips coated with a light batter of flour, cornstarch, and dry mustard powder, then into cracker crumbs before deep frying.

 

 

[liuzhou]

2 minutes ago, Dejah said:

In southern China, hot mustard, the kind made with dry mustard powder and water is used for dipping pieces of 白切鸡 / Cantonese Poached Chicken.

 

Well, I've lived in southern China for 25 years and never come across it and can't buy it. And I can't count how many times I've eaten 白切鸡.

[Dejah]

Just now, liuzhou said:

 

Well, I've lived in southern China for 25 years and never come across it and can't buy it. And I can't count how many times I've eaten 白切鸡.

Maybe it is a family thing? I know my grandfather and father always asked for it, and I enjoy it too. It is made with Keen's Mustard powder.

 

[liuzhou]

2 minutes ago, Dejah said:

Maybe it is a family thing? I know my grandfather and father always asked for it, and I enjoy it too. It is made with Keen's Mustard powder.

 

 

I have never seen any kind of mustard powder. And none of my local friends have heard of it. And none of the major online grocery sites have it.

 

Maybe a Hong Kong thing? The British inflluence?

[Dejah]

6 minutes ago, liuzhou said:

 

I have never seen any kind of mustard powder. And none of my local friends have heard of it. And none of the major online grocery sites have it.

 

Maybe a Hong Kong thing? The British inflluence?

Most likely! Good deduction.

[Toliver]

I ordered Chinese food from a local mom & pop restaurant last night.

Here's a picture of the condiments I got with my order (which included egg rolls and fried shrimp):

I never ever use the condiment in the bottom right. It's a sweet sauce....high fructose corn syrup that has a pink dye in it that looks almost like a day-glo color. It's what you usually get when you order deep fried won ton skins (sometimes with cream cheese in them)...or eggrolls. It has no flavor other than "sweet".

I also find it humorous that they give you the same number of ketchup containers as the hot mustard containers. I wouldn't be able to eat it with just a one-to-one ratio....it would be too hot and sinus-clearing. I think I'm up to a 4 ketchups to one hot mustard ratio now. Yes, I'm becoming a wimp in my old age.

As you can see, my order contained nary a container or packet of duck sauce/plum sauce. Again, it must be a west coast versus east coast thing.

It makes me wonder what @Fat Guywould have thought of the discrepancy.

 

[haresfur]

@liuzhou Do you get mustard greens in China? I randomly picked up a bunch at my Chinese green grocer here. Of course it was when my very different looking mustard greens were going gangbusters in the garden.