Baking Pizza on a Metal Plate/Baking Steel

[jimb0]

i think i’ve mentioned this elsewhere recently but i leave my steel in the oven 24/7 and just made peace with it. without the steel, the temperature swings are just too extreme. when the oven says it’s come to temp at 400°F, say, it might actually be at 275°F. then it’ll slowly climb until the temp probe i have dangling in the middle reads 475°F. with the steel acting as a buffer, it remains within a degree or so of the desired temperature (with sufficient preheat time, of course). 

 

i tend to leave mine on the bottom rack unless i’m cooking pizza, though, where i’ll move it to the top. 

[weinoo]

10 hours ago, Hassouni said:

@weinoo, I kept my Baking Steel Griddle in the oven, and despite being seasoned, it rusted - I then found out gas ovens (which I have, or had...see below), release water vapor as a byproduct. Is your oven electric?

 

Also, using said baking steel as a griddle to make tortillas and cranking the heat fried my oven controls (that were right behind the steel)...and two technicians' trips later, I need a new oven! Definitely springing for electric.

 

Gas.  And yes, if your oven has a window, you can see the vapor when the oven first fires up...I open the door for a few seconds to let it escape, and I always wipe the steel down with a cloth and the tiniest bit of high-heat oil as soon as it cools down enough to do so. I don't seem to have much problem with rust.

 

The controls on the range are not in the back, so I'm not too worried about frying them - and nothing is electronic in the controls.

[Katie Meadow]

I have a gas Viking oven. It doesn't want to get hotter than 475 or maybe 500 degrees. We used a stone for many years and then upgraded to a 3.8 inch steel. The steel shortens baking time by a minute or two and gets the bottom crust crispier. I wouldn't call it life changing, but it's definitely worth the expense. Of course it would be nice to have an outdoor pizza oven that cranks up to 700 or higher, but this is a perceptible improvement. The steel also makes it easier for the peel to slide out the pie. 

[Duvel]

22 minutes ago, Katie Meadow said:

then upgraded to a 3.8 inch steel.

 Thickness ..?! 😱

[Katie Meadow]

34 minutes ago, Duvel said:

 Thickness ..?! 😱

Sorry for any confusion. The steel is 3/8 inch thick.

[Duvel]

1 minute ago, Katie Meadow said:

Sorry for any confusion. The steel is 3/8 inch thick.

Much easier to lift ...

[weinoo]

I think this is my best attempt yet.

 

 

I say I think, because I don't know what style I'd call it. Perhaps a little too puffy for NY style.  It's around 11". I suppose with little less hydration, I could stretch it more?

 

Anyway - 50% KA bread, 50% KA Sir Gallahad, which is like their A/P, I think. Around 68% hydration. The tiniest bit of sugar, and a T or so of olive oil went into the 500 grams of flour. I'd say a gram of instant yeast. Brought together with a Danish whisk till no dry flour showed. 16 hours on the counter. Divided, shaped and put into individual containers and into the fridge overnight. I brought them out 2 hours prior to using, and started heating the oven/steel an hour before baking, at its hottest temp. Then I turned on the broiler for a few minutes while shaping and dressing the pie. Turned it back onto bake when I slid the pie in. And back onto broil for the last minute.

Total bake time  was just about 5 minutes, 30 seconds.

 

The sauce was really good, the mozzarella is via Formaggio Essex, and there was a sprinkling of freshly grated parm before I put the mozzarella on. Toppings refrigerated until the last minute.

 

We were quite happy drinking this alongside...

 

 

We ate two pies.

Edited January 23, 2021 by weinoo (log)

[shain]

20 hours ago, weinoo said:

I say I think, because I don't know what style I'd call it. Perhaps a little too puffy for NY style.  It's around 11". I suppose with little less hydration, I could stretch it more?

 

 

I like my pizzas fluffy, IMO this highlight a good dough. I'd suggest that you avoid lowering hydration if you can, unless you prefer it to be a bit drier and crisper (note that stretching it wider will also have the same effect to a degree, so even more so). 

 

21 hours ago, weinoo said:

Toppings refrigerated until the last minute.

 

That's super important with fresh motz in an home oven - cold toppings and large-ish pieces, otherwise it gets dry and chewey. Soaking the cheese with a bit of milk and a pinch of salt also helps.

[Duvel]

9 hours ago, shain said:

On 1/23/2021 at 2:39 PM, weinoo said:

Toppings refrigerated until the last minute.

 

That's super important with fresh motz in an home oven - cold toppings and large-ish pieces, otherwise it gets dry and chewey. Soaking the cheese with a bit of milk and a pinch of salt also helps.

Or using burrata ...

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Duvel (log)

[weinoo]

Bought myself a present, which arrived this week...

 

 

Made these for lunch yesterday, which explains why dinner didn't go exactly as planned...

 

 

 

I sure seem to end up with flour everywhere!

[jimb0]

looking good. the peel is a bit of a surprise to me, does no dough ever get caught in the holes?

[weinoo]

23 minutes ago, jimb0 said:

looking good. the peel is a bit of a surprise to me, does no dough ever get caught in the holes?

Thanks for jinxing me!!

 

You know, I haven't used it enough yet to have that happen...;i think the idea is that all the holes reduce any friction? But I have no idea - it seems like a lot of the Neapolitan pizza places here use a peel like this.

 

 

Keste, NYC

 

 

 

[rotuts]

@weinoo 

 

nice 

 

do you have the URL

 

for tha Pizza Steel ?

 

may friend has the gas pizza ovwn

 

and might like to see the peel.

[weinoo]

3 hours ago, rotuts said:

@weinoo 

 

nice 

 

do you have the URL

 

for tha Pizza Steel ?

 

may friend has the gas pizza ovwn

 

and might like to see the peel.

 

This one came from Amazon, which unsurprisingly has a ton of peels.

[paul o' vendange]

On 1/11/2021 at 9:55 AM, weinoo said:

 

I'm no food scientist or heat scientist (my mother thought I'd make a good vet), and I'm sure we'll hear from them...

 

I think the way the steel affects heat in the oven is that it keeps the heat more consistent.  Baking on top of the steel is I guess like baking on an oven floor, so I imagine some experimentation will be necessary, but I didn't find much difference with these cookies, and Edd (yes, that is how he spells his name) in the one tin baking book says that it helps some of what he bakes from getting a soggy bottom crust.

 

When I roasted chicken thighs underneath the steel (after it had heated properly), they crisped up quite beautifully.  My oven maintains quite accurate heat, according to the thermometers I have in there, and I would think if an oven is squirrely, the steel can only help.

 

I am no scientist either but yep, we’re talking thermal mass.  Your plate retains heat better than a stone has greater mass still.   One benefit,  I believe. Is to act as a bit more of a buffer - every time we open the door the temp drops dramatically but it’s less of a problem with bakes on material of higher thermal mass than lower mass.

 

I can’t speak for Anova as I’ve never used one.  My oven gets a warmup, with cast iron steel Dutch oven if applicable, or stone itself when doing bakes with barards  or any other longer breads like baguettes.  In this second case, I set up a cookie sheet with rolled up kitchen towels, heavily soaked prior to being put in the heat oven.

 

Regardless,  I have a hotel pan full of lava rocks which hit with water just prior to baking .

 

Anova is a steam oven, right?  If so I can’t speak to anything else but f higher or lower higher mass. 

[weinoo]

1 hour ago, paul o' vendange said:

Regardless,  I have a hotel pan full of lava rocks which hit with water just prior to baking

That must be quite a blast of steam!

[paul o' vendange]

23 minutes ago, weinoo said:

That must be quite a blast of steam!

Lol, yep, pretty peppy bit of steam.  That steam goes so quickly, but I want to do what I can to keep a humid environment.  I forgot to mention I toss a couple of ice cubes at T-15 to also lend to a good start.  

 

The sheet of soaked towels goes in right at preheat (I’ve always gone an hour for preheating.  Oven may be there but I want to make sure the stone or Dutch oven are fully at temp).  The towels perform like champs. See plenty of steam coming up till I pull sheet or the cloche lid, 20 minutes.  Even with the fact the oven constantly vents.

 

Ideas aren’t mine.  Sort of a hybrid of Hamelman and Tartine.

Edited February 12, 2021 by paul o' vendange (log)

[Bernie]

The thermal mass matters...BUT

Consider a brick lined oven. The bricks will retain the heat but they will also transfer the heat to the air in the oven and with a big surface area it will do it nicely.

But heat travels relatively slowly through the bricks.

You put your pizza in the oven on the bricks and the hot air starts the cooking but the that you are getting quite a bit of radiation from the bricks.

The part of the pizza in contact with the bricks initially gets its heat from the bricks but it cools the surface of the bricks and the slow transfer of heat means it cooks the pizza relatively slowly, there is little heat radiation involved.

 

Now replace the bricks with steel (with a decent thickness).

The same processes happens. The steel gives up its heat to the air a much quicker, the radiation is about the same.

The part of the pizza in contact with the steel initially gets the heat from the steel and cools it, but because heat transfer through steel is much faster than the brick, the steel rapidly heats back up and you are likely to burn the base of the pizza. But the cooking of the rest was much quicker because the air is heating up much faster, so the whole may cook before the base burns.

 

A steel plate alone in a normal oven does the same sort of thing, but it provides almost no radiation to the top of the pizza, you are relying on the radiation of the normal oven, but the air heats up quicker from the steel.

 

So its all sort of confusing. The steel plate means you probably need to run the oven cooler, at least initially. Perhaps its better to run 2 steel plates one at the top of the oven one at the bottom to put the pizza on, or just have a single (substantial plate) to provide thermal mass but don't put the pizza on it directly.

 

What I use is a round pizza stone (from Aldi). I tried heating it much hotter over gas and then putting the hot stone in the preheated oven (Don't drink if you are going to attempt this!). The pizza burned on the base before it was cooked like I like it.

Now I just use the stone preheated to ~230 C then turn the oven flat out when I put the pizza directly on it. Works OK, better than the pizza in a normal tray in the normal oven which cooks the top before the bottom and I end up with a soggy bottom.

I think it is all trial and error, because it depends as much on your oven, dough and toppings. Ideal is a brick lined wood fired oven. That way the air is really really  hot and the bricks are not as hot but uniform and have a good heat mass. It also carries away the moisture as it cooks.

 

[paul o' vendange]

I don’t disagree.  Bernie’s right and we are talking thermal conductivity in addition to thermal mass.  It’s nigh just impossible to replicate the bake from a brick pizza and and home, no matter what we do.  So we do what we can.  I’ve found steel is just not very good compared to my results obtained using either a stone and an array of saturated linen, or a cast iron cloche as advocated by the Tartine approach.  I should note I’m talking about levain only, not pastries.

 

if folks haven’t read it but are interested, the late Alan Scott was a guru behind a resurgent interest in traditional brick ovens.  See The Bread Builders.  

 

Mud ovens, too, are pretty wonderful. There’s some cultural anthro study out there re the traditional mud ovens of Quebec, 16th century on.  Forget it’s name, but it’s somewhere and fascinating.

 

At any rate, this is pretty far off Anova, apologies.  Just wanted to share my experience.  Will beg off now.

Edited February 13, 2021 by paul o' vendange (log)

[jimb0]

i'm able to get my steel up to around 300C or so. i keep it on the top rack when i'm doing pizza, then just before the pizza goes in the oven i turn on the top broiler. between the two, i can get a small pizza done in 2-3 minutes, which i think is pretty respectable for a standard home oven. 

[weinoo]

My steel does get moved to the top rack for pizza making (though my top oven shelf is actually the second rack down). The broiler is quite intense in my oven, so I turn on the broiler for a few minutes before launching the pizza, and then switch it back to bake when the pie goes in.  Then back to broil for a final minute. It's all a trial and error thing for me - I'm sitting at around 5 to 5.5 minutes. I did notice the other day (I don't look too hard) that the thermometers I have in the oven were showing around 550F - I haven't checked the steel with a laser recently.

 

As I say to my lovely co-eater, the pizza I'm making at home may not be as great as Anthony's at Una Pizza, or the NY style pie at Louie & Ernie's or Patsy's et al.  But it's probably better, and for sure using better ingredients, than 95% of what's out there. That works for us.

 

Of course, once summer rolls around and I refuse to turn on the oven - nothing will work!

[jaymer]

On 1/10/2021 at 6:03 PM, scott123 said:

stuff about pizza...

 

 

Despite the other guy with foul language and an attitude, I wanted to say how much I appreciate your tips and suggestions!

And I'd send that 5:30 pizza (on Page 2) back - but what do I know? I don't have a ton of posts under my name!

[weinoo]

30 minutes ago, jaymer said:

 

Despite the other guy with foul language and an attitude, I wanted to say how much I appreciate your tips and suggestions!

And I'd send that 5:30 pizza (on Page 2) back - but what do I know? I don't have a ton of posts under my name!

No one wants to go scrolling, man...give us the fucking link...

 

By the way, the link in your signature, @jaymer...not working.

Edited February 15, 2021 by weinoo (log)

[Bernie]

Well i just found this https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1806/1806.08790.pdf

Its a bit long winded but there are a few interesting temperature discussions. Then it gets technical and my eyes  glazed over and I decided I would have pork instead.

Some one might be able to make sense of it all though.

[Chris Hennes]

On 2/13/2021 at 6:00 AM, weinoo said:

As I say to my lovely co-eater, the pizza I'm making at home may not be as great as Anthony's at Una Pizza, or the NY style pie at Louie & Ernie's or Patsy's et al.  But it's probably better, and for sure using better ingredients, than 95% of what's out there.

I betcha that number's more like 99%, or even 99.9%. There is a lot of mediocre pizza in the world, even in NYC  . Someone making a home pie who actually gives a damn is going to beat almost all of it, even if they don't quite hit the absolute highs of the best places.