New Toy: Breville/Polyscience Control Freak!

CanadianHomeChef · June 23, 2020

PolyScience is doing a 21-day trial of the Control Freak. Looks like you just pay a $350 refundable deposit. Looks like it's just the USA. They say if you want to keep it you'll get a special discounted rate (but doesn't say what it is). There's a sign up form. First come, first serve. They'll send you the paperwork. For anyone that's interested: https://polyscience.vyd8.net/44Rg9

Edited June 23, 2020 by CanadianHomeChef (log)

bpwhistler · June 23, 2020

4 minutes ago, CanadianHomeChef said:

PolyScience is doing a 21-day trial of the Control Freak.

I hope this doesn’t mean Control Freak sales are hurting, and if they don’t pick up with this trial, it will become a discontinued product...

chromedome · June 23, 2020

3 hours ago, bpwhistler said:

I hope this doesn’t mean Control Freak sales are hurting, and if they don’t pick up with this trial, it will become a discontinued product...

Well, it was pretty clearly a niche product from Day One. I doubt they were expecting Instant Pot-ish numbers at any point.

bpwhistler · June 23, 2020

12 minutes ago, chromedome said:

I doubt they were expecting Instant Pot-ish numbers at any point.

Yes...that’s a given. But there are break even numbers that must be met. And profit goals that must also be met. Instantpot-ish or not, it does have to meet certain goals.

PositiveMD · June 23, 2020

Dang it's making me wonder whether I should pick up another one in case they discontinue it soon

KennethT · June 24, 2020

3 hours ago, PositiveMD said:

Dang it's making me wonder whether I should pick up another one in case they discontinue it soon

I've lately been looking at the Vollrath series 4 line. It seems to have the control and accuracy of the control freak, but they have a 2600W version (220V) that's a similar price to the control freak.

jaw · June 24, 2020

vollrath doesn't have a contact sensor to read cookware temp though, correct? it only has probe temp?

jaw · June 24, 2020

9 hours ago, CanadianHomeChef said:

PolyScience is doing a 21-day trial of the Control Freak. Looks like you just pay a $350 refundable deposit. Looks like it's just the USA. They say if you want to keep it you'll get a special discounted rate (but doesn't say what it is). There's a sign up form. First come, first serve. They'll send you the paperwork. For anyone that's interested: https://polyscience.vyd8.net/44Rg9

https://polyscienceculinary.com/pages/control-freak-loaner

here's the real link for anyone who doesn't want the tracking

also, as of this writing, here's the terms/discount:

Quote

PolyScience now gives you the opportunity to try it for 21 days before purchasing. All you have to pay is a fully refundable $350 fee, and you'll get to try the Control°Freak® Induction Cooker with no obligation. You will receive a factory refurbished unit for your trial. If you decide to keep it, well give you 15% off the refurbished unit and put your deposit towards the price (for a total due of $924.75 + tax). If you'd like a new unit at full price, please contact customer service at 844-765-9724 or click here to contact us.

so you get a refurb unit for 15% off ($1274.75 instead of $1499.95), or $225 off the price of a new unit.

the way i'm interpreting this is they have accumulated a bunch of refurb units they want to get rid of and don't mind loaning them out towards that end. imo, they should have knocked off more than 15%. if they did, i'd buy one....

Edited June 24, 2020 by jaw (log)

KennethT · June 24, 2020

The Vollrath 4 series senses pan temp through the glass. Some models have an additional sensor that goes into liquids, but some don't.

jaw · June 24, 2020

1 hour ago, KennethT said:

The Vollrath 4 series senses pan temp through the glass. Some models have an additional sensor that goes into liquids, but some don't.

how? infrared pyrometry?

has anyone here used one? i'm wondering how it compares to the CF's contact sensor..

CanadianHomeChef · June 24, 2020

8 minutes ago, jaw said:

how? infrared pyrometry?

has anyone here used one? i'm wondering how it compares to the CF's contact sensor..

I know the Vollrath mirage series is known for temperature accuracy. Not sure how they do it. We have a mirage cadet at my school in the foods room... never used it though.

KennethT · June 24, 2020

12 minutes ago, jaw said:

how? infrared pyrometry?

has anyone here used one? i'm wondering how it compares to the CF's contact sensor..

I'm not sure how it works but they claim best accuracy in the industry. @btbyrd has a mirage (I think) and he spoke very highly of it.

CanadianHomeChef · June 24, 2020

9 minutes ago, KennethT said:

I'm not sure how it works but they claim best accuracy in the industry. @btbyrd has a mirage (I think) and he spoke very highly of it.

Yeah. I have heard good things about it too. It was second on my list when I bought the CF.

jaw · June 24, 2020

On 6/23/2020 at 10:39 PM, CanadianHomeChef said:

I know the Vollrath mirage series is known for temperature accuracy. Not sure how they do it. We have a mirage cadet at my school in the foods room... never used it though.

i emailed vollrath about their 4-series temp control (when not using a probe), and this is what i learned:

they do sense cookware temperature and support closed-loop temp control in this manner when not using a probe. how does it work?

it seems there is a contact-based temp sensor below the glass, so it relies on heat being conducted from the cookware, through the glass, and into the sensor. this is a cookware-air-glass-sensor interface, so there's some appreciable thermal resistance. this is fairly reliable but not super accurate, and i was told compensation is not attempted in software. they even told me that if you want to shoot for 140°F pan temp, you might try choosing a setpoint of 150°F or something.

compared to the CF, this 4-series cookware temp sensing is inferior imo. first of all, the CF contact sensor is spring-loaded, ensuring solid contact with the cookware. also, the intermediate material in the thermal interface is metal instead of glass. these factors mean less thermal resistance, and therefore less temperature drop between the pan and the sensor. furthermore, in my testing, i've found the CF pan temp control to be pretty damn accurate, which surprised me, so i'm sure they're doing compensation in software on top of that. also, the time response will be faster -- temp change should be detected more quickly on the CF.

still, i would love to try a vollrath unit. the 'expanded field' feature is interesting. supposedly the cookware continues to be heated even when it's lifted a bit above the surface, giving it a more gas-like feel. not exactly a killer feature, because on the CF, cooking is paused for a moment until you set it back down on the surface. i'm not sure pausing heating for a moment while you flip something in the pan is a problem. but still, that's pretty cool if it works as advertised.

https://www.vollrathfoodservice.com/products/countertop-equipment/cooking-equipment/induction-ranges/4-series-induction-range/mpi4-1800s

https://www.vollrathfoodservice.com/products/countertop-equipment/cooking-equipment/induction-ranges/4-series-induction-range/mpi4-1440s

even though the MSRP on the 4-series is higher than the CF ($1650 vs $1500), it seems the 4-series can, in reality, be had for much cheaper than the CF:

https://chefstoys.com/40642/vollrath-mpi4-1800s-4-series-countertop-induction-range-1800-watts-40642

https://chefstoys.com/40643/vollrath-mpi4-1440s-4-series-countertop-medium-power-induction-range-w

it's about $875 on this site. so from a price perspective, the vollrath seems pretty attractive compared to the CF. also, it's interesting that the 1800W and 1440W models are the same price.

i don't think i'd like that touch interface slider on the 4-series though. real knobs are much more appealing to me.

so, in summary.. here's my take on the CF vs the 4-series:

the CF costs almost twice as much as the 4-series
they probably perform similarly in probe-control mode
the CF comes with a superior probe clip (that awesome rubber ball thing)
the CF's pan-control mode (contact-based cookware temp sensing) is almost certainly superior to the 4-series in both accuracy and speed
the CF's UI is more capable with several soft buttons, knobs, and a graphical color LCD. this lets you display more info on the screen at once, like timers (count-up or count-down). the vollrath has only a simple numerical segment display, and i don't think it's possible to view both pan and probe temp simultaneously. the probe models have a touch-based temp slider (probably capacitive sensing), and the non-probe models have a knob instead; i wonder why?
the vollrath lets you run it in "dumb mode" without temp feedback if you want. you can pick power output from 0-100% or something. unbelievably, the CF does not have such a feature! you can choose from three power output settings (slow, med, fast), but it is always bound by a temp setting. sometimes i just want to cook "classic style" and not think about temperatures, and frustratingly, the CF doesn't let you cook like that!!
they both have a program mode, but it's not clear to me yet which is superior. imo, the CF's is not very useful, but you can program it without a PC, and the superior UI and display would in theory would allow for more possibilities.
the 4-series has an "expanded field" which supposedly continues heating without interruption if you lift the pan a bit to sautée or flip something. on the CF, it pauses for a moment until you return the pan.
unlike the CF, the 4-series is available in the US in 240V models at up to 3800W!

Edited June 25, 2020 by jaw (log)

jaw · June 24, 2020

also, here are my general thoughts on the CF..

i short, i think it's amazing, but here is my feature wishlist:

first of all, it blows my mind that there isn't a "dumb mode" for classic cooking without temp feedback. sometimes, i don't necessarily want or need to think about temperatures, and i just want to cook like i'm on an old-fashioned cooktop. i want fine granularity of power output, which would be a breeze to implement given the full-color graphical LCD and physical knobs. something like 100 steps (0-100% power output) would be great. i've tried to hack around this by setting the temp to something really high and only adjusting the power output, but with only three power output choices (slow, medium, and high), this does not work well at all for me.

next, i would really like both pan temp and probe temp (if inserted) to be shown at all times. there's plenty of room on the LCD for that. for some reason, if you put it into probe-control mode, the contact-sensor temperature is no longer displayed. i think this is genuinely useful info to display at all times!

finally, i wish there were a 240V model available in the US for higher power output. i know i might be able to buy an international model (depending on power frequency) and just adapt the plug, but i'm guessing i'd be out of luck on the warranty and service front.

CanadianHomeChef · June 24, 2020

40 minutes ago, jaw said:

i emailed vollrath about their 4-series temp control (when not using a probe), and this is what i learned:

they do sense cookware temperature and support closed-loop temp control in this manner when not using a probe. how does it work?

it seems there is a contact-based temp sensor below the glass, so it relies on heat being conducted from the cookware, through the glass, and into the sensor. this is a cookware-air-glass-sensor interface, so there's some appreciable thermal resistance. this is fairly reliable but not super accurate, and i was told compensation is not attempted in software. they even told me that if you want to shoot for 140°F pan temp, you might try choosing a setpoint of 150°F or something.

compared to the CF, this 4-series cookware temp sensing is inferior imo. first of all, the CF contact sensor is spring-loaded, ensuring solid contact with the cookware. also, the intermediate material in the thermal interface is metal instead of glass. these factors mean less thermal resistance, and therefore less temperature drop between the pan and the sensor. furthermore, in my testing, i've found the CF pan temp control to be pretty damn accurate, which surprised me, so i'm sure they're doing compensation in software on top of that. also, the time response will be faster -- temp change should be detected more quickly on the CF.

still, i would love to try a vollrath unit. the 'expanded field' feature is interesting. supposedly the cookware continues to be heated even when it's lifted a bit above the surface, giving it a more gas-like feel. not exactly a killer feature, because on the CF, cooking is paused for a moment until you set it back down on the surface. i'm not sure pausing heating for a moment while you flip something in the pan is a problem. but still, that's pretty cool if it works as advertised.

https://www.vollrathfoodservice.com/products/countertop-equipment/cooking-equipment/induction-ranges/4-series-induction-range/mpi4-1800s

https://www.vollrathfoodservice.com/products/countertop-equipment/cooking-equipment/induction-ranges/4-series-induction-range/mpi4-1440s

even though the MSRP on the 4-series is higher than the CF ($1650 vs $1500), it seems the 4-series can, in reality, be had for much cheaper than the CF:

https://chefstoys.com/40642/vollrath-mpi4-1800s-4-series-countertop-induction-range-1800-watts-40642

https://chefstoys.com/40643/vollrath-mpi4-1440s-4-series-countertop-medium-power-induction-range-w

it's about $875 on this site. so from a price perspective, the vollrath seems pretty attractive compared to the CF. also, it's interesting that the 1800W and 1440W models are the same price.

i don't think i'd like that touch interface slider on the 4-series though. real knobs are much more appealing to me.

so, in summary.. here's my take on the CF vs the 4-series:

the CF costs almost twice as much as the 4-series

they probably perform similarly in probe-control mode

the CF comes with a superior probe clip (that awesome rubber ball thing)

the CF's pan-control mode (contact-based cookware temp sensing) is almost certainly superior to the 4-series in both accuracy and speed

the CF's UI is more capable with several soft buttons, knobs, and a graphical color LCD. this lets you display more info on the screen at once, like timers (count-up or count-down). the vollrath has only a simple numerical segment display, and i don't think it's possible to view both pan and probe temp simultaneously. the probe models have a touch-based temp slider (probably capacitive sensing), and the non-probe models have a knob instead; i wonder why?

the vollrath lets you run it in "dumb mode" without temp feedback if you want. you can pick power output from 0-100% or something. unbelievably, the CF does not have such a feature! you can choose from three power output settings (slow, med, fast), but it is always bound by a temp setting. sometimes i just want to cook "classic style" and not think about temperatures, and frustratingly, the CF doesn't let you cook like that!!

they both have a program mode, but it's not clear to me yet which is superior. imo, the CF's is not very useful, but you can program it without a PC, and the superior UI and display would in theory would allow for more possibilities.

the 4-series has an "expanded field" which supposedly continues heating without interruption if you lift the pan a bit to sautée or flip something. on the CF, it pauses for a moment until you return the pan.

Thanks for the insights!

If the vollrath doesn't compensation, wouldn't it make sense to set it at a lower temperature, not a higher temperature? Like let's say you wanted to heat it to 300. If you set it to 300, it would wait until the sensor was 300? Surely the pan would be hotter than 300 at this point as it needs to travel through the glass? IF you set it at 290, the pan should be closer to 300... no?

jaw · June 24, 2020

34 minutes ago, CanadianHomeChef said:

Thanks for the insights!

If the vollrath doesn't compensation, wouldn't it make sense to set it at a lower temperature, not a higher temperature? Like let's say you wanted to heat it to 300. If you set it to 300, it would wait until the sensor was 300? Surely the pan would be hotter than 300 at this point as it needs to travel through the glass? IF you set it at 290, the pan should be closer to 300... no?

yes, i think you're right. i quickly paraphrased what the guy told me without thinking, so i assume he just made a mistake and meant to say "set it to ~140°F if you want 150°F".

edit: to be clear, it's not just a time lag thing. of course there is one because heat takes time to transfer, but at steady state, there will always be a temperature difference. even if the pan temp is stable at 300°F or whatever for an hour, the temperature below the glass where the sensor is will always be lower than the pan temp. the temperature at the pan and below the glass will never be the same. that's why compensation is needed, either in your brain or via software.

Edited June 24, 2020 by jaw (log)

JoNorvelleWalker · June 24, 2020

3 minutes ago, jaw said:

yes, that's correct. i just quickly paraphrased what the guy told me without thinking, so i assume he just made a mistake and meant to say "set it to ~140°F if you want 150°F".

I think you may have it backwards.

KennethT · June 24, 2020

@jaw Thanks for that. I had found a price for the 2600W (230V) version on webstaurantstore.com for $935 - this model has the temp probe as well as a dial for adjusting temperatures rather than the screen slider. I understand that the pan temp may not be as accurate as the CF, but I think for my needs, it will be close enough, plus I really like the expanded field feature and the fact that I can control the output in 1% increments from 1-100%, which makes it emulate gas. And at 2600W, it will be very powerful - enough to boil a pot of water quickly, or bring a pot of oil back to temp fast when deep frying without the fear of overshooting like with gas. One thing I'm looking forward to is using my pressure cooker (a kuhn rikon) with it. On my gas range, i have a really hard time getting it to stay stable once it reaches pressure - either the flame is too low and the pressure drops or the flame is too high, and the overpressure kicks in at some point. So I have to check on it every 5 minutes to adjust the flame based on the spring valve. I'm sure it won't take long to find whatever temp setting the vollrath needs to keep it at the pressure I want. And a big pot of stock or something has a lot of mass, so its temperature won't change that fast anyway - so the speed of the temp sensor is likely to be much faster than how much that pot changes from instant to instant.

JoNorvelleWalker · June 24, 2020

17 minutes ago, KennethT said:

@jaw Thanks for that. I had found a price for the 2600W (230V) version on webstaurantstore.com for $935 - this model has the temp probe as well as a dial for adjusting temperatures rather than the screen slider. I understand that the pan temp may not be as accurate as the CF, but I think for my needs, it will be close enough, plus I really like the expanded field feature and the fact that I can control the output in 1% increments from 1-100%, which makes it emulate gas. And at 2600W, it will be very powerful - enough to boil a pot of water quickly, or bring a pot of oil back to temp fast when deep frying without the fear of overshooting like with gas. One thing I'm looking forward to is using my pressure cooker (a kuhn rikon) with it. On my gas range, i have a really hard time getting it to stay stable once it reaches pressure - either the flame is too low and the pressure drops or the flame is too high, and the overpressure kicks in at some point. So I have to check on it every 5 minutes to adjust the flame based on the spring valve. I'm sure it won't take long to find whatever temp setting the vollrath needs to keep it at the pressure I want. And a big pot of stock or something has a lot of mass, so its temperature won't change that fast anyway - so the speed of the temp sensor is likely to be much faster than how much that pot changes from instant to instant.

My Paragon was $69.97...and it has a spring loaded pan sensor. Setting a pan temperature is great for pressure cookers.

CanadianHomeChef · June 24, 2020

49 minutes ago, KennethT said:

@jaw Thanks for that. I had found a price for the 2600W (230V) version on webstaurantstore.com for $935 - this model has the temp probe as well as a dial for adjusting temperatures rather than the screen slider. I understand that the pan temp may not be as accurate as the CF, but I think for my needs, it will be close enough, plus I really like the expanded field feature and the fact that I can control the output in 1% increments from 1-100%, which makes it emulate gas. And at 2600W, it will be very powerful - enough to boil a pot of water quickly, or bring a pot of oil back to temp fast when deep frying without the fear of overshooting like with gas. One thing I'm looking forward to is using my pressure cooker (a kuhn rikon) with it. On my gas range, i have a really hard time getting it to stay stable once it reaches pressure - either the flame is too low and the pressure drops or the flame is too high, and the overpressure kicks in at some point. So I have to check on it every 5 minutes to adjust the flame based on the spring valve. I'm sure it won't take long to find whatever temp setting the vollrath needs to keep it at the pressure I want. And a big pot of stock or something has a lot of mass, so its temperature won't change that fast anyway - so the speed of the temp sensor is likely to be much faster than how much that pot changes from instant to instant.

If you get it, be sure to post your experience with it. I too am intrigued by 2600W for large quantities of liquid and oil. I'd still keep on of my Control Freaks, but maybe sell the other one as the higher wattage would expand my options considerably. That is if it's high quality and reliable like the CF.

CanadianHomeChef · June 24, 2020

36 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

My Paragon was $69.97...and it has a spring loaded pan sensor. Setting a pan temperature is great for pressure cookers.

I've found using a pressure cooker, I have to set the temperature much lower than what my math dictates. Otherwise I get too much venting. But yes, I can stabilize it pretty easily.

Wonder if it's my pressure cooker? It's a Fissler VitaQuick. It can't really be the CF as the temperature control is flawless on an open pan (I.e. If I set a pot of water to 180 using pan control, the water will eventually reach 180 inside the pot).

Or perhaps some venting is normal? I always thought it shouldn't vent until 15PSI is reached.

Edited June 24, 2020 by CanadianHomeChef (log)

JoNorvelleWalker · June 24, 2020

1 hour ago, CanadianHomeChef said:

I've found using a pressure cooker, I have to set the temperature much lower than what my math dictates. Otherwise I get too much venting. But yes, I can stabilize it pretty easily.

Wonder if it's my pressure cooker? It's a Fissler VitaQuick. It can't really be the CF as the temperature control is flawless on an open pan (I.e. If I set a pot of water to 180 using pan control, the water will eventually reach 180 inside the pot).

Or perhaps some venting is normal? I always thought it shouldn't vent until 15PSI is reached.

I have two VitaQuicks but I use my VitaVit with my Paragon. I set the Paragon to 250F till I get venting, then reduce the temperature to 236F and can leave the setup unattended.

In the pressure cooker thread there is some discussion what pressures the Fissler models are designed to reach. I did some temperature measurements with my larger VitaQuick.

adey73 · June 25, 2020

i have a range of Kuhn Rikon's from 2.5 fryer to 12L Hotel and use them on 2 Vollrath Mirage UK models...

If making stock I can/have left the larger format PC's overnight with complete stability using the 1-100% power setting...

the other setting by temperature is in my experience inaccurate.

teonzo · June 25, 2020

14 hours ago, jaw said:

first of all, it blows my mind that there isn't a "dumb mode" for classic cooking without temp feedback. sometimes, i don't necessarily want or need to think about temperatures, and i just want to cook like i'm on an old-fashioned cooktop. i want fine granularity of power output, which would be a breeze to implement given the full-color graphical LCD and physical knobs. something like 100 steps (0-100% power output) would be great. i've tried to hack around this by setting the temp to something really high and only adjusting the power output, but with only three power output choices (slow, medium, and high), this does not work well at all for me.

next, i would really like both pan temp and probe temp (if inserted) to be shown at all times. there's plenty of room on the LCD for that. for some reason, if you put it into probe-control mode, the contact-sensor temperature is no longer displayed. i think this is genuinely useful info to display at all times!

You should contact their customer service, asking to implement these ideas in one of their next firmware updates. They should be open to these suggestions, since you help them making a better product.

Teo

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