Baking with Myhrvold's "Modernist Bread: The Art and Science"

[Chris Hennes]

8 minutes ago, Anna N said:

  What, if anything, am I missing here?

The pate fermentée presented in volume 3 uses 0.07% yeast, whereas the one in the recipe for the pain rustique uses 0.67% yeast, basically ten times as much. There's a table on 3•22 that shows how to convert the yeast quantity for the target time you want to let it mature.

[Anna N]

Ah!  Thank you. So many books. So much to learn!

 

Hmmmm.  Looking at table on page 3- 22 is for the amount of yeast using a sponge. Do you think that is transferable?  I am not seeing a similar table for the pate fermentée. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Anna N (log)

[Chris Hennes]

Just now, Anna N said:

Ah!  Thank you. So many books. So much to learn!

This. I've skimmed the whole set now, and read the chapters I (thought I) needed to make the breads I was interested in first, but I'm finding that there are lots of gaps in my knowledge that would have been filled if I'd really read the whole thing before baking. Instead I am still learning by screwing things up and then looking up the answer afterwords.

[Anna N]

50 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

This. I've skimmed the whole set now, and read the chapters I (thought I) needed to make the breads I was interested in first, but I'm finding that there are lots of gaps in my knowledge that would have been filled if I'd really read the whole thing before baking. Instead I am still learning by screwing things up and then looking up the answer afterwords.

Thank you for that. I was beginning to feel particularly dense today.  There is an enormous amount of knowledge.  It is spread out over all of the volumes and sometimes when you think you’ve read everything there is on the subject, you discover you have only just skimmed the surface.  

 I think a decent notebook is an absolute necessity to make the most of these books. 

[teonzo]

2 hours ago, Chris Hennes said:

Instead I am still learning by screwing things up and then looking up the answer afterwords.

 

That's the best way to go! You have more fun and it's more useful, since you learn much more things by making mistakes first hand.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[Anna N]

 

 First attempt at Pain Rustique. 

 I used a pâte fermentée which I mixed up yesterday evening and intended to use yesterday evening. I ran out of steam too soon and tossed it into the fridge where it remained overnight.   I took it from the refrigerator about 1 1/2 hours before mixing it into the dough. It was very much alive. 

 

 The loaf on the left was baked in my GE Profile range oven, on a pizza stone which had been preheated for about 1 1/2 hours, at 450°F for 25 minutes. I adjusted my Profile oven down because I noticed it is running hot. . I threw ice into the bottom of the oven but did not cover the bread. I turned the bread front to back at about the 15 minute mark.  Its final temperature when I took it from the oven was 208°F

 

 The loaf on the right was baked in the Cuisinart steam oven at 425°F for 35 minutes on the bread setting.  Its final temperature was 210°F.  It sat on a cast aluminum griddle plate and I did not preheat the oven at all. 

 

These are the changes I would make next time.

 

For the Profile oven I would start it at 470° as per the book and keep a close watch on it turning it down if necessary. 

 

For the Cuisinart steam oven I would crank the heat all the way to 450°F, the maximum it will go, and see if I got any better oven spring. The problem with the Cuisinart steam oven is that on the bread setting if you attempt to preheat then you can lose that initial burst of steam.  Obviously need some more experimentation. 

 

 These did not stick to the couche. I rather doubt even Gorilla glue would’ve stuck to the couch.  I ground rice flour into it. I then sprinkled it with bread flour and ground that in and then just before I loaded the loaves, I added more flour.  I am now trying to find my kitchen under the  blanket of white.  I have been informed there is a blanket white outside but I refuse to look. 

 

 

[chefmd]

8 minutes ago, Anna N said:

 

 First attempt at Pain Rustique. 

 I used a pâte fermentée which I mixed up yesterday evening and intended to use yesterday evening. I ran out of steam too soon and tossed it into the fridge where it remained overnight.   I took it from the refrigerator about 1 1/2 hours before mixing it into the dough. It was very much alive. 

 

 The loaf on the left was baked in my GE Profile range oven, on a pizza stone which had been preheated for about 1 1/2 hours, at 450°F for 25 minutes. I adjusted my Profile oven down because I noticed it is running hot. . I threw ice into the bottom of the oven but did not cover the bread. I turned the bread front to back at about the 15 minute mark.  Its final temperature when I took it from the oven was 208°F

 

 The loaf on the right was baked in the Cuisinart steam oven at 425°F for 35 minutes on the bread setting.  Its final temperature was 210°F.  It sat on a cast aluminum griddle plate and I did not preheat the oven at all. 

 

These are the changes I would make next time.

 

For the Profile oven I would start it at 470° as per the book and keep a close watch on it turning it down if necessary. 

 

For the Cuisinart steam oven I would crank the heat all the way to 450°F, the maximum it will go, and see if I got any better oven spring. The problem with the Cuisinart steam oven is that on the bread setting if you attempt to preheat then you can lose that initial burst of steam.  Obviously need some more experimentation. 

 

 

 

You can preheat CSO on any cycle you want (may be convection bake), cancel the cycle, put the bread in, start the bread cycle.  

[Anna N]

6 minutes ago, chefmd said:

You can preheat CSO on any cycle you want (may be convection bake), cancel the cycle, put the bread in, start the bread cycle.  

 Definitely will need to do some experimenting. Thanks. That will be very useful for those who are trying to cope with just a CSO. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Anna N
To say thanks… I remembered my manners eventually (log)

[Anna N]

 

Crumb from the Pain Rustique  baked in the GE profile oven 

 

[Barrytm]

Anna , glad to see rice flour worked for you.  It is pretty amazing when you see the difference between bread flour and rice flour.  BTW,  winter is coming, and I am sure any white dusting outside will be taken for snow. 

[Chris Hennes]

Today I figured since I was going to be hanging out in the kitchen all day anyway I may as well make some bread. So today's lineup is:

• Chocolate cherry (by popular demand)
• Pressure-caramelized grains (because I had leftover grains)
• Ramen (I can't resist, it's too weird)
• Forbidden rice porridge
• Huitlacoche
• S'Mores

All of these are sourdoughs, and I'm basing them all off the Modernist Sourdough recipe with the book's suggested modifications. My levain has been a bit anemic these last few days -- my hypothesis is that it's because I changed flour brands, but who knows. Fingers crossed that it's got enough power to leaven these loaves.

 

Here's a shot to give you an idea of the volume of inclusions in the Chocolate Cherry:

 

And the ramen:

 

Here's the secret ingredient there:

(and yes, you add the flavor packet to the dough!)

 

Here's the porridge:

 

The autolyse phase (five bowls because the grain inclusion and the S'mores both have the same plain sourdough base):

 

And fully mixed and ready for their first turn:

[Shelby]

RAMEN??????????!!!!!!!!!  Holy crap.  Yes.  Can't wait to see what you think.  

[Chris Hennes]

32 minutes ago, Shelby said:

RAMEN??????????!!!!!!!!!  Holy crap.  Yes.  Can't wait to see what you think.  

Yeah, I'm intrigued, I can't wait to taste it.

 

Of course, S'Mores aren't S'Mores unless the marshmallows are toasted:

(as you can see, I didn't have any mini marshmallows so I used the regular size and cut them into eighths).

[Anna N]

My plans for tomorrow are considerably less ambitious. I am hoping to pull off the chocolate brioche. I’ve made brioche in the past and I have read everything in the books (I think) about how to get the best out of one’s efforts.   But if anyone is aware of gotchas I'd love to hear them. 

[Anna N]

So I am carefully reading the recipes for both the master brioche and the chocolate brioche. The mixing directions for the master brioche which are referenced in the chocolate brioche call for a final mix on high speed for 15 to 20 minutes.   There is no such direction in the mixing directions for the chocolate brioche. Can somebody comment, please?

 

The master brioche recipe is on page 136 and the chocolate brioche is on page 160 of the kitchen manual. 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Anna N
To add page references (log)

[Chris Hennes]

17 minutes ago, Anna N said:

There is no such direction in the mixing directions for the chocolate brioche. Can somebody comment, please?

There is, it's just not so specific with the time. The purpose of that mixing step (according to 4•219) is just to achieve full gluten development, which they explain will depend on your mixer and several other factors, so the time is only approximate. They tell you to do the window pane test to check, rather than just relying on a time. So in the Chocolate Brioche, when they say "mix on medium-high speed to full gluten development," that's the mixing step you are seeing listed as "15-20 minutes" in other recipes. The butter really slows things down, apparently.

[Chris Hennes]

The S'Mores additions have been added to the last dough:

 

Now everything is shaped and proofing at 13°C for 14 hours.

[Anna N]

17 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

There is, it's just not so specific with the time. The purpose of that mixing step (according to 4•219) is just to achieve full gluten development, which they explain will depend on your mixer and several other factors, so the time is only approximate. They tell you to do the window pane test to check, rather than just relying on a time. So in the Chocolate Brioche, when they say "mix on medium-high speed to full gluten development," that's the mixing step you are seeing listed as "15-20 minutes" in other recipes. The butter really slows things down, apparently.

That’s very helpful. Thank you, Chris. 

[teonzo]

11 hours ago, Anna N said:

My plans for tomorrow are considerably less ambitious. I am hoping to pull off the chocolate brioche. I’ve made brioche in the past and I have read everything in the books (I think) about how to get the best out of one’s efforts.   But if anyone is aware of gotchas I'd love to hear them. 

 

Prepare a lenghty Christmas list to give to your granddaughter, this year you deserve more gifts than usual!

 

 

11 hours ago, Anna N said:

So I am carefully reading the recipes for both the master brioche and the chocolate brioche. The mixing directions for the master brioche which are referenced in the chocolate brioche call for a final mix on high speed for 15 to 20 minutes.   There is no such direction in the mixing directions for the chocolate brioche. Can somebody comment, please?

 

Chris already wrote that you need to watch the gluten development and not the mixing time. The other critical point is adding butter in small amounts and not all at once (otherwise you break the emulsion), but I'm confident it's well explained in the books.

I would add that it's better to read the manual of your stand mixer (or whatever machine you are using). If you are using a stand mixer for home use (small Kitchen Aid, Kenwood or whatever) then they are not engineered to work at high speed with heavy doughs. Brioche is not as hard as a low idration bread dough, but it's still in the heavy dough category. The mechanics of small stand mixers are not built to stand the stress of mixing heavy doughs at high speed, you don't break the machine immediately, you keep ruining the gears and they will break in the medium term (few months / a couple of years with average home use). This is the major reason behind home stand mixers maintenance: people don't read the manual and mix heavy doughs at high speed. For example with a Kitchen Aid Artisan Tilt-Head you don't have to go over speed 2. So please read your machine manual before slowly damaging it. Slow speed means more mixing time, just watch gluten development. Or to be more precise: watch the emulsion. With brioche you add the butter when you already developed the gluten, the critical point is keeping the emulsion, not developing gluten since it's already developed. The final window test with brioche is meant to check that it's perfectly emulsified.

Another critical factor, expecially with enriched breads that have a lot of butter, is watching the dough temperature. Ideally you should remain in the 22°C-26°C window. The best thing to do at home is to check the dough temperature every 5 minutes. If it reached 26°C then transfer the dough in the freezer for 5 minutes, then resume mixing. If you have enough space in the freezer then just put the mixer bowl with the dough inside, less work and more effective.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[Anna N]

7 minutes ago, teonzo said:

Prepare a lenghty Christmas list to give to your granddaughter, this year you deserve more gifts than usual!

Ha ha.  I am the one who gives the gifts she just receives them but she does it so well.   

[Anna N]

30 minutes ago, teonzo said:

 

Prepare a lenghty Christmas list to give to your granddaughter, this year you deserve more gifts than usual!

 

 

 

Chris already wrote that you need to watch the gluten development and not the mixing time. The other critical point is adding butter in small amounts and not all at once (otherwise you break the emulsion), but I'm confident it's well explained in the books.

I would add that it's better to read the manual of your stand mixer (or whatever machine you are using). If you are using a stand mixer for home use (small Kitchen Aid, Kenwood or whatever) then they are not engineered to work at high speed with heavy doughs. Brioche is not as hard as a low idration bread dough, but it's still in the heavy dough category. The mechanics of small stand mixers are not built to stand the stress of mixing heavy doughs at high speed, you don't break the machine immediately, you keep ruining the gears and they will break in the medium term (few months / a couple of years with average home use). This is the major reason behind home stand mixers maintenance: people don't read the manual and mix heavy doughs at high speed. For example with a Kitchen Aid Artisan Tilt-Head you don't have to go over speed 2. So please read your machine manual before slowly damaging it. Slow speed means more mixing time, just watch gluten development. Or to be more precise: watch the emulsion. With brioche you add the butter when you already developed the gluten, the critical point is keeping the emulsion, not developing gluten since it's already developed. The final window test with brioche is meant to check that it's perfectly emulsified.

Another critical factor, expecially with enriched breads that have a lot of butter, is watching the dough temperature. Ideally you should remain in the 22°C-26°C window. The best thing to do at home is to check the dough temperature every 5 minutes. If it reached 26°C then transfer the dough in the freezer for 5 minutes, then resume mixing. If you have enough space in the freezer then just put the mixer bowl with the dough inside, less work and more effective.

 

 

 

Teo

 

 Thank you. I was already well into the process when I saw your response to my request for gotchas. 

 

 I am using a Bosch compact mixer and I am extremely solicitous of it. I didn’t need to read the manual to know that high speed was not where it was likely to stay for very long so I immediately reduced the speed to something I found comfortable to watch and hear. 

 

The temperature held steady at 25° for quite some time but then crossed over to 28° shortly after I read your comments.  It had been mixing for better than 16 minutes but I did not feel the gluten was fully developed. I stopped the mixer covered the bowl and stuck it into the refrigerator.   The freezer is not an option at this point. 

 

The instructions for  this dough do stress adding the butter in three stages alternating with the sugar and salt mixture  but does suggest mixing it only to medium gluten development before adding the butter and salt sugar.  Then suggests that you continue mixing to full gluten development. 

 

I am going to leave the dough in the refrigerator in the bowl  for 30 minutes and then continue mixing and hope to reach full gluten development and a fully emulsified dough. 

 

 Hard to express how much I appreciate your coaching. 

[Anna N]

 

 Chocolate brioche dough ready to be refrigerated. If elasticity is a good indication of good gluten development then the gluten is well developed in this dough. 

[Chris Hennes]

Nice, @Anna N. I programmed my oven to preheat itself this morning (and it actually did so!) so I've got two of yesterday's loaves in there baking right now.

[Anna N]

Thanks. My fingers are crossed so tightly I may be able to do nothing for the rest of the day until I get my breads baked. Couldn’t leave it at just chocolate brioche. I also have a Farmer’s bread on the go made only with levains. I have one proofing at room temperature and one cold proofing in the refrigerator.  The recommendation of course is for cold  proofing  but the book also suggests that if you are going to proof at room temperature you leave it uncovered.  I find that idea so nerve-racking that I have thrown tea towel over it   I know. Oh ye of little faith. 

 

 Anxiously awaiting your results. 

[Kerry Beal]

Sourdough - slight mistake - had kitchen manual open - saw 315 grams - added 315 grams of levain. Had to fiddle the water a bit to bring it back to the correct total (of course their is more flour with more levain and I didn't bother to correct for that)

 

it was a lively dough during the folds! 

 

Baked this am am in the CSO at 450 for 35 minutes. Preheated the stone on convection bake for 15 minutes