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Posted
42 minutes ago, mgaretz said:

 

Doesn't seem to make a significant difference.  That's both from others and my own experience.  So I just let it go to keep warm and don't worry.

Exactly, keep warm doesn’t kick in until well below any pressure temperature, between 145° to 172°F (I suppose it depends on the model, and likely variances between individual units.)

  • Like 2
Posted (edited)

this is what the bottom of my iPot looks like 

 

after making a pot if TurkeyRagu :

 

IMG_5825.thumb.jpeg.6ae8e8c5f7c519bcf1318bcaf4f61fb5.jpeg

 

I rinse the pot out , and let it sit for a bit.  the brown bits are the result of the uneven heating element.

 

this come right off w a textured sponge.  from time to time , I snazz the pot up w some BartendersFriend.

 

done

Edited by rotuts (log)
  • Like 3
  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

over here 

 

https://forums.egullet.org/topic/167372-turkey-ragu-via-ipot-vacmaster/#comment-2442590

 

 

ive posted how I make turkey ragu , using the iPot.

 

ive made several batches , and improved the Rx by using a bit more garlic , a bit more turkey , 

 

and a Tj's Cote du Rhone  , table wine .   I thought pork might be worth a try .  I remembered  country pork ribs

 

had a lot of pork dark meat , that's tastier that the ' white meat '  found this @ Market Basket :

 

IMG_5957.thumb.jpeg.e5165c3e384470533bafccdb07a9623f.jpeg

 

IMG_5959.thumb.jpeg.cc85b526488e2908c7805b924602307f.jpeg

 

I cut the meat into smaller pieces , and decided to brown , for added flavor 

 

IMG_5967.thumb.jpeg.1e0dbfc49039ba7c77f31c6dc152c81f.jpeg

 

note these three pieces :

 

IMG_5970.thumb.jpeg.000d1e6c01889ccbd9888f8c454fdd4e.jpeg

 

the white meat is part of the top slice .  almost all of this package was dark.

 

IMG_5973.thumb.jpeg.5bc0dc977eaecfdde86b3191361ec54c.jpeg

 

Fond in the Fond-less  (  a bit of fun .. )

 

all the steps are the same as the main post on turkey ragu .  I mentioned I use 6 Dorot fx garlic pucks and 6 Dorot basil pucks  

 

the basil goes in off the heat .

 

IMG_5978.thumb.jpeg.6a319e73d9e5693515aa5c45ff1ae6a7.jpeg

 

the finished pot. those are basil pucks , melting .

 

IMG_5983.thumb.jpeg.8070fcf06f1bec103168d4c201976be0.jpeg

 

the pot cooling off in the sink.  w my new refrigerator//freezer , its easy to make ice bricks the day before

 

to more the cooling along .   I used to change the water several time s, but no longer.  Less is Better.

 

IMG_5996.thumb.jpeg.2091e2738cd5ac5f8f91011628f8fecd.jpeg

 

this is what a portion looks like , ready to reheat .  it separates , but comes back together for the dish :

 

IMG_5986.thumb.jpeg.de0cebec7ff84a758d82628ead4c451f.jpeg

 

Ive found , for my tastes , after the FastaPasta is done , drained , I add the hot pasta to my plate , add in some EVOO , and some pasta water.

 

this keeps the pasta fully hydrated , and has a better mouth feel than if under hydrated .  I know more experienced pasta chefs

 

can do this w/o the liquid you see in the upper R of the picture above .  Im hit or miss on that , so the above.

 

this was mighty tasty .  

 

However , as in any meat braise , the meat stands , while tender , were by them selves , dry.

 

this  is common w a braise .  the meat jus gets squeezed out into the stock, as the proteins contract at braise or higher temps.

 

next time I see pork like this @ MarketBasket , Im going to try something Ive thought about for a while :

 

cut the meat into small cubes  ( probably w a Chisinart , very sharp blade , and deeply chill until firm , then pulse , etc )

 

and place the small cubes , w seasoning , in a bag , vac-seal , and SV @ 130.1 F  until tender  24 ?  36 ? hours .

 

chill

 

than add that meat to the completed meatless ragu , using the iPot and all the above ingredients 

 

and see how that turns out.  

 

a lot of steps , but none neat to be done at the same time , and all steps keep refrigerated , separately 

 

when using ground meat for the above ragu's  the meat is so fine , you don't notice the dryness.

 

but you don't get the visuals of whole meat , nor the chew .

Edited by rotuts (log)
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Posted (edited)

And to complete this dish :

 

as expected w braise dishes , this was better the next day , in terms of the dryness of the individual pieces of meat.

 

after relaxing , if you will , some of the jus went back into the meat.

 

this is a keeper for me , as long as @ MB has a pack of similar meat

 

this is a multi-stared dish.  w plenty of VacPac'd bricks for the future.

Edited by rotuts (log)
  • Like 9
  • 2 months later...
Posted

over here , 

 

https://forums.egullet.org/topic/166120-ge-profile-smart-indoor-smoker/page/5/#comment-2450605

 

on the Ge-ISD thread , Ive made smoked TB's.   each episode does two TB's, and the back and frames on the lower rack.

 

Two episodes yields two smoked backs , etc etc, which is a decent amount to use in the 6-qt iPot.

 

I chop the backs and frames to minimize the volume of water , so I don't have to eventually reduce it.

 

my plan ( having 6 WholeTB's  WTB's ) is to end up w 3 X stock , which Ill eventually make Vac-Bricks , and freeze.

 

I do not use salt in any prep , and very little seasonings , as Im happy to add that when I use the TB's , and eventually 

 

the stock.

 

IMG_6614.thumb.jpeg.77f7cd3b9bb159b1bf57c1b7fec60d0a.jpeg

 

the smoked bones  ( 2 WTB's )

 

IMG_6619.thumb.jpeg.ce85852cad2d6644cebe72332d21c195.jpeg

 

covered w minimal water ( sorry  pic is fuzzy , doubt the result of Personal Beverages , but maybe )

 

I iPot on  high for 1 hr  ( thanks to @KennethT 's suggestion ), the remove the larger bones carefully   

 

IMG_6622.thumb.jpeg.d2e83a3b9415e7f66276a44abe7f8172.jpeg

 

and mash up the meat w a hand masher , to shred the meat into fibers , then iPot High again for 30 min.

 

interestingly the meat after smoking was still a bit tough and needed the mashing.

 

then I use potato ricer to get all the stock out of the iPot'ed meat

 

IMG_6624.thumb.jpeg.561828288a73f5a2400d2cb92d4c2cf3.jpeg

 

there is a lot of meat on the backs and frames.  thats about 4   2-3 " pucks.

 

then I use a strainer to get a bit more out of the stock

 

IMG_6629.thumb.jpeg.425e25c3b8e7bae336b82f269b7f4f3a.jpeg

 

ending w 

 

IMG_6632.thumb.jpeg.6c18ad655d616bd39924da0c70a02599.jpeg

 

this is the ricer.  I think my mother had one that was ' forged ' , but this one is formed from sheet metal

 

IMG_6626.thumb.jpeg.e65bcf193271be84c15c02158edabbb6.jpeg

 

the disk fits on the bottom , comes out easily , and the unit came w three different disks.

 

IMG_6638.thumb.jpeg.62b8ecbe39479fc884634d34a6d63b36.jpeg

 

the finished insert beginning  to cool in cold water.  note the dish rack , which prevents the insert

 

from swimming over to the water faucet , and adding water.

 

this will happen, and the basis of  Bernoulli's Principle.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli's_principle

 

I happen to be an expert on B.P. , as it was the subject of my first ever report:

 

a 3 page hand written report , Science Class , 8th grade.

 

Ill do this same thing w the Fz ( fit nicely in a saved TJ's plastic cookie container . 

 

I save them for opportunities such as these )  three times , as I started off w 6 Fz WTB.

 

$ 0.99  // lbs  , on sale.

 

the final stock might be quite potent , but I can chop off less and one brick unit

 

refreeze that partial brick , and dilute or not as needed.

 

nice

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 8
  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

making more stock , from the backs and frames of the varioous Fz turkey breasts ive worked with

 

over on the GE-IDS thread:

 

https://forums.egullet.org/topic/166120-ge-profile-smart-indoor-smoker/page/5/

 

IMG_6818.thumb.jpeg.d82011d52c3489a948e9879d35bfd1cb.jpeg

 

bones Ive fz from the last three TB.s   in the front the bones were cooked in the GE-IDS on the lower rack.

 

I decided I didnt need to do that , for flavor , as I was going to use each iPot's session's stock , over again , until finished.

 

I ended up w stock that was 4 X :  4 sets of bones  ( two backs  in the first session ) , then using that stock , single backs

 

and frames for each subsequent rendition.

 

IMG_6822.thumb.jpeg.90d936d0c72617e2cb10c82d6c39982f.jpeg

 

the two uncooked bones , ready to bake for some Malliad-ing

 

IMG_6824.thumb.jpeg.7d7d9ed8698bff284cebb15441bbe7ad.jpeg

 

while the bones were in the oven , this pot contains the smoked bones , and the previous stock , which I froze in a TJ's plastic

 

cookie container . ( I save them , as I fined them useful for lots things , mostly a decent sized container for the refrigerator )

 

IMG_6826.thumb.jpeg.77b284b38324a55e1bca9aea588cc921.jpeg

 

bones baked

 

MC ( The Cat ) likes turkey it seems,  he kept an eye on the oven while baking the above.

 

IMG_6840.thumb.jpeg.604c3d8d67bb134ea0eb3c19e8fd7f17.jpeg

 

 

these went in for two iPot sessions , which the stock was still hot.  thus three sessions , back to back , to completion.

 

this took some time  , but it was all unattended.

 

1 hour HP initially , ( not counting the 20 min warm up ) , bones are removed after a quick mash up w a hans masher )

 

meat falls right off the bones , then the chunks of meat are mashed again to get to meat fibers , and iPot'd for 20 min.

 

the meat its then removed , and pressed in the potato masher ( previously described , above ) meat bits discarded.

 

they are completely dry , and more or less flavorless .

 

I ended up with 1/2 of the original volume of stock :

 

IMG_6846.thumb.jpeg.4f842c6fa45bedbf42e284a26ee15f57.jpeg

 

I cooled and refrigerated .  the next day I removed the fat.  it had more of a pork flavor than turkey , but I discarded it.

 

couldn't think of a use at this time.

 

IMG_6852.thumb.jpeg.83c100b0108a68bc98db870ca16fb911.jpeg

 

IMG_6855.thumb.jpeg.6284fb9402a8318667a3ef15052e4e4f.jpeg

 

this is a gel .  I portioned it into two plastic containers , the size I use for Vac'd Bricks. I micro'd them to just level them out

 

IMG_6857.thumb.jpeg.40531169a2ba0c88828855b830472f20.jpeg

 

Ill freeze and tomorrow Ill Vac and save for future use.

 

I as concerned that repeated iPot'ing of the stock might change the character of the proteins and sugars , making them un-palatable.

 

and secondly , that the fat would also change into tasty unpleasantness , as there would always be a tiny bit in the stock.

 

neither happened .  this is very tasty stuff.  smoky , but not overly so . turkey and pork flavors.  the little seasoning i used

 

did not overwhelm the flavor.  and , its not salty at all.

 

this is full flavored , not light flavored in any way.

 

Ill make this stock the same way , with then next 6 TB's  Ill smoke 1 - 2 , and oven roast the other 4 .

 

I will remove all the turkey skin ( as i dont need the surface area for Malliard flavor , and I dont care for turkey fat. )

 

I might start w the volume of water I initially used for two Tb units  , which ended up in one full TJ cookie container of stock

 

then re-use that over and over until done, which ended up w 1/2 container of concentrated stock.

 

I was surprised on how much turkey meat was discarded with the last 3 TB's .   but it had very little flavor , but the meat

 

was not wasted.

 

over all , a very successful project , done in easy stages each time.

 

 

 

IMG_6857.thumb.jpeg.40531169a2ba0c88828855b830472f20.jpeg

IMG_6842.jpeg

Edited by rotuts (log)
  • Like 12
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  • 1 month later...
Posted (edited)

a bit earlier , above ' I made Pork Ragu ' iPot '

 

same sort of thing here , but the pork is goiing to be previously 

 

1   SV ,     then      2   InDoorSmoker

 

I have 3 versions :  S Spanish = smoked Spanish paprika   ,   F French = Thyme and Rosemary   M Mexican = Cumin

 

these were to be used for Carnitas and sandwiches.

 

I decided I had too many F's.   it makes a fine sandwich sliced thin ,  but I wasn't going to eat that many 

 

So :  more Pork Ragu ' iPot '   but with these pork logs as the meat.

 

IMG_7165.thumb.jpeg.675bdbd167ff475d614d5e066472c336.jpeg

 

3.5 lbs ' S '  thawing in the singk

 

IMG_7168.thumb.jpeg.b05aeb7f8e61e957f962ed0cd880fbf5.jpeg

 

ready to go

 

IMG_7170.thumb.jpeg.1e2a20cfc5a691fc1ddd8516eb7dc19d.jpeg

 

getting color on the pork 

 

I think @Duvel  would appreciate this pic :  juicy , tender pork w a light smokiness.  I tried one :  outstanding.

 

IMG_7176.thumb.jpeg.96049ec4747425c904c566ab0098e652.jpeg

 

both pans are new 

 

Tramontina Professional Fusion

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N8S7QZG?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title&th=1

 

both 10 " and 12 "       I have pans that are very very nice for this step :  T-Fal  but but I wanted to ty these .  very similar price

 

that's the bottle of wine going into the iPot , reduced to just short of a glaze :  down to less than 10 % , in the same pans

 

I also Cuisinarted 2 lbs of brown muuchrooms , and cooked down to browning .   using the same pans.  nice

 

IMG_7179.thumb.jpeg.124907f2a060604ad54cf65e274bf73c.jpeg

 

everyting into the iPot :  2 cans MB crushed tomatoes , no added salt  .  6 garlic punch-outs , Dorot   .  Mushrooms , 

 

Pensey's Tuscan blend herbs

 

reduced wine .

 

IMG_7184.thumb.jpeg.7be6f633f42f25d9f30ac25bad249715.jpeg

 

iPot 45 Min HP , then shredded w hand masher .  The flavor here was Astonishing !  deep, rich , w a mild smokiness that didnt overpower

 

the other flavors.  a big winner for sure.

 

IMG_7186.thumb.jpeg.01890f4e7a04a53a064266b5e815029a.jpegadd

 

 

I added cream cheese and Dorot basil .  I add the cream cheese for richness and creaminess  

 

I do it this way so the CC just melts and does not scorch .  15 - 20 min LP , natural release

 

I always use natural release as   1 ) Im not in a hurry   2 0  and there is no Ragu splatter all over the top.

 

IMG_7189.thumb.jpeg.b726dc4124a3304914f37cccdda315f7.jpeg

 

cooking down in the sink w IceBricks , I easily make in the New refirgerator.

 

portioned out into Brick Molds :  24 oz semi - disposable plastic storage containers 

 

more about these vital container later

 

IMG_7200.thumb.jpeg.f89de30a6012ca33d0406f2cd603f212.jpeg

 

the red towel  was to dry out the bottoms of the containers as the were wet.

 

these go into the refrigerator , covered , over night

 

then into the freezer  , then Vac'd into Bricks , and added to the ' Brick Library "  on the side of the freezer downstairs.

 

fit perfectly .

 

Nest time , Im going to omit the cream cheese .   the above is delicious , 4 star , but Id like to try the identical w/0 CC

 

would be a bolder flavor  , different , still  starts  but Bold   ( different from Hot )  this is not hot at all.

 

Im very pleased this worked out so well.

 

the Ragu this was is the next level up , but Excellent.

 

IMG_7178.jpeg

Edited by rotuts (log)
  • Like 7
  • Delicious 2
  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

this is my last ' Pork Log Ragu '  for a while.

 

I had one set of nice county style pork and de-salted bacon , 

 

that I didnt get to due to the heat , but Vac'd it , and decided to make a set of Pork Ragu Bricks

 

as its a cooler day .  same idea :  SV , wrapped in desalted bacon

 

IMG_7291.thumb.jpeg.7461963a1a5e925b0eb2a9bf8a8dc210.jpeg

 

 

an orphan got IDS'd  w/o bacon , as ran out.

 

the 2 lbs of mushrooms , cuisi-minced , browned , then the pork :

 

IMG_7295.thumb.jpeg.a88e74b58acf1f38b940b90c2d0ee6fb.jpeg

 

the pork-pic is for our Pork Expert , @Duvel.

 

this time I wont add cream cheese .  although it adds creaminess , it mutes the outstanding Porky-ness of the Ragu.

 

and this batch wilol be Thyme // rosemary   .  no Penzey's Tuscan Sunset.   bottle of Cote du Rhone

 

of course !

  • Like 2
  • 1 month later...
Posted (edited)

Over on the IDS thrad

 

https://forums.egullet.org/topic/167917-cooking-with-a-countertop-indoor-smoker/page/12/#comment-2458890

 

I smoked two trays of CkDrums, for the purposes of making CkJell Stock :

 

IMG_7742.thumb.jpeg.fcc7cb266a4c2df06b9b6cf575c92664.jpeg

 

6 legs , in the 6 qt iPot

 

IMG_7744.thumb.jpeg.ddc828d9d3cb82a3177dc4fab97f2016.jpeg

 

water to allmost cover  ( 6 cups )

 

IMG_7747.thumb.jpeg.82ed20826d2e0b98cc8e2e00570f9ab3.jpeg

 

after 1 HR  HP .  I immediately release .  it save time as this will be a 3 X stock .  Ive discovered w past sessions , using quick release

 

the steam lost equals about 1 cup of water from the iPot.  this concentrates the stock , ' seamlessly '  w no extra work

 

IMG_7751.thumb.jpeg.ddef3d758e0ec181e9d85822824aa24b.jpeg

 

I hand mash the legs , getting to a state of muscle strands .   I iPot 30 min more , HP .  the solids are removed and jus pressed

 

out via a hand potato ricer .   this was done three times  ( 3 X ) . 

 

IMG_7755.thumb.jpeg.31504106de809c150b93f05b9de211ea.jpeg

 

 

the last session , above.

 

the stock was strained to remove any remaining strand , cooled in the sink

 

then added to my Brick-Maker containers 

 

IMG_7756.thumb.jpeg.1b050911328ea2b7235f9720f2f19c0e.jpeg

 

a little over 4 cups 3 X stock.   I refrigerated the three containers over night .  later today Ill place them in the freezer for 15 minutes or so

 

facilitating the removal of the fat , then overnight again in the freezer , then vac the bricks and keep in the freezer for future use.

 

I open the Vac'd bag , quickly remove the CkJell I plan to use , and re-seal in the chamber vac  the same bag.

 

works quite well.

 

 

 

Edited by rotuts (log)
  • Like 2
  • Delicious 2
Posted

That's beautiful-loooking chicken stock, @rotuts.

  • Like 2

Nancy Smith, aka "Smithy"
HosteG Forumsnsmith@egstaff.org

Follow us on social media! Facebook; instagram.com/egulletx

"Every day should be filled with something delicious, because life is too short not to spoil yourself. " -- Ling (with permission)
"There comes a time in every project when you have to shoot the engineer and start production." -- author unknown

Posted

Sure wish we could get $.99 chicken drumsticks here.  Gorgeous looking stock, @rotuts.  Did i read that right, that you got 3 containers of CK stock from 4 drumsticks?  Or was that from both trays?  Does MC get the chicken threads?

  • Like 1
Posted

IMG_7778.thumb.jpeg.fdb520e2032f572b112656b6b21decb7.jpeg

 

de-fatted .  I chill overnight in the refrigerator ( 35 F ) , then 20 min or so in the freezer  ( -6 F ) 

 

the fat peels right off 

 

IMG_7781.thumb.jpeg.84c6b7ec99b31d66138f4359d2c5f424.jpeg

 

bagged and vac'd  .

  • Like 2
Posted (edited)

@ElsieD

 

this was two trays of CkDrums.  price went up 10 cents from previous sale !  ( 11.1 % )

 

so that's from 18 legs .   I saved one for MC .  he sometimes get some of the ' shreds ' , I dont press too hard on one container for him.

 

I ran the CkDrums through the iPot 3 times , so 3 X stock .  no seasonings used for that reason .

 

seasons up when i sue the,   I open a Fz brick , use a cleaver and whack what I plan to use , and get the same brick back into the same

 

bag quickly , and re-vac . then back to the freezer.

 

even Fz it has a wonderful chicken aroma.

 

N.B. :  the color you  see on the CkDrums is not , unfortunately , from the maillard Rx.  its from the smoke.

 

so this is not roasted Ck stock.

 

later this week Im thinking of doing another batch , but roast the CkDrums in the oven after they are smoked

 

325 until very brown.  I might even take the meat off the bone for that ( surface area )

 

and skin the legs , chopping off the end 1 " where its difficult to remove the skin , 

 

then Id have roasted CkJell.

Edited by rotuts (log)
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Posted

I just checked the "specials" for chicken drumsticks prices this week.  They range from $3.00 to $4.99 a pound.

  • Sad 1
Posted (edited)

@ElsieD

 

Stop&Shop doesn't usuallt have very good sales , compared to Marketbasket.

 

however , they periodically have very good deals on CkDrums , and even wings .  I dont cook wings

 

wings go on sale @ $ 2.48 .     the store brand chicken @ stop&shop is significantly larger ,

 

thus more meat // bone , and better presented than MB .

 

and in the past , S&S has had Fz turkey ( whole ) breasts for $ 0.99 , same turkey ( StoneyBrookFarm ) never goes below

 

$ 1.29 / lbs at MB.

 

go figure.

Edited by rotuts (log)
  • Like 2
  • 2 months later...
Posted

Ive been working w chicken legs recently , as Stop&ship has them on sale , $ 0.88 - $ 0.99 // lb.

 

the trays have 10 - 12 , depending on the size of the legs.    I try to get the 10 / tray , but it really does not matter that much.

 

Initially I removed most of the skin from the legs , before using the InDoorSmoker for a 3 hour smoking session.

 

I decided that was a lot of work for not much return , so now leave the skin on.

 

after smoking for 3 hours , ( one tray at a time )   some go into a vac bag and get SV'd for 8 hours , rapidly chilled , etc.

 

and several trays get turned into concentrated chicken stock , after the smoking.

 

what was missing w this stock , although exceptionally delicious this way , was  Maillard-ing some of the meat , for that ' brown' flavor 

 

So :

 

I cut off most of the meat from the CkDrums IMG_8085.thumb.jpeg.e03f38100b90165e00034757825f01d2.jpeg

 

and saute'd them in a 10 " Fondless :

 

IMG_8088.thumb.jpeg.8c87ee501d01b9e2ed7baa7556d84fc1.jpeg

 

scraping up the Fond from the pan

 

IMG_8091.thumb.jpeg.48597488a828f841bc18bcb39c730df1.jpeg

 

and adding it to the iPot

 

IMG_8093.thumb.jpeg.ac7117484bd2195cf2bbd29a3ce99727.jpeg

 

I did two trays here , and the second set the next day 

 

IMG_8095.thumb.jpeg.5e8a208e3feb29b9e71eba9c4198297c.jpeg

 

that brown gell is the result of the first day's stock making , resulting in

 

ddddd.thumb.jpg.4f4670ed766313b043ef3c589ce14b4a.jpg

 

I then used this ( and the potato that snuck into the pic , for a ' creamed roasted chicken ' dinner 

 

over here :

 

https://forums.egullet.org/topic/167297-dinner-2025/page/95/#comment-2463334

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
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Posted

I have an InstaPot Ultra 60    still in its box  

 

Id prefer , esp if I have it , and InstaPot where the cord unplugged from the unit .

 

Its a very small think , but ....   do0es the Ultra 60 have that feature ?

 

I looked vis Goog , and got no info.

 

thanks

Posted

thank you 

 

I pulled the unit out , very nice .

 

the inner pot has less indicator line than the original Im using

 

so Ill use the older one

 

the plastic small reservoir , you attach to the back ,  for ....

 

is a bit if of a mystery for me to install ,   just now   

 

Thomorrow !

Posted

@rotuts, if your eyesight is good enough you'll see that the holder for the water trap has one open end, and the trap will slide into that slot without pinching. Eyesight can be an issue, though; pinching should take care of that problem.

  • Like 2

Nancy Smith, aka "Smithy"
HosteG Forumsnsmith@egstaff.org

Follow us on social media! Facebook; instagram.com/egulletx

"Every day should be filled with something delicious, because life is too short not to spoil yourself. " -- Ling (with permission)
"There comes a time in every project when you have to shoot the engineer and start production." -- author unknown

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