Flavoring your ice creams: Extract or infusion?

[CharlieDi]

Hi,

This weekend I'm making the Ben and Jerry's Mint Oreo ice cream for the first time.

Recipe says 2 teaspoon of peppermint extract and, if hesitate, that's what I'll do.

My point is, whenever is possible I prefer to use the real ingredient (infused, lyo, whatever the form) and use the extract as a booster of the flavour.

I was thinking of making a mint leaves + heavy cream infusion and later add few drops of extract.

What do you think?

How do you flavour your ice creams?

Do you find any differences in taste?

[Alex]

I'm afraid I haven't conducted any reasonable A-B comparisons, so I can't contribute in that regard. However, David Lebovitz, in my go-to book The Perfect Scoop, uses just an infusion in his regular mint ice cream but only extract or oil (plus crumbled peppermint patties) in his chocolate mint recipe. And, like you, he uses both an infusion and an extract in his vanilla ice cream.

 

Regarding mint extract and oil, he says, "Different brands vary significantly in strength, which makes calculating their use in recipes a challenge. You may want to begin by adding a smaller quantity than called for in the recipe. Taste, then add more until you're satisfied."

Edited July 23, 2015 by Alex (log)

[paulraphael]

In my experience infusions always taste better than extracts, usually drastically so.

 

Peppermint extract, for example, tastes like mouthwash. A well executed infusion of mint leaves tastes three-dimensional and delicious.

 

I infuse into a solution of milk and sugar (both from the recipe) since sugar syrup is an excellent solvent for aromatic compounds. There isn't a lot of published research on infusion times/temperatures, so I've been experimenting. Currently I heat the milk/sugars to 82°C. I'm working on ways to keep milk proteins from curdling, but if they do, it doesn't seem to hurt the final result.

 

Herbs with big, delicate leaves (mint, basil, sage, etc.) I infuse for 5 minutes, with a large quantity of leaves.

Tougher, stemmier herbs (thyme, rosemary) I infuse for 15 minutes with a smaller quantity.

 

Per 1000g mix I use the following quantities:

 

Basil 28g

Mint 36g

Sage 18g

Sorrel 18g

 

Thyme 8g

Rosemary 12g

 

This is all a work in progress, but I promise all of it will taste way better than extracts. 

[paulraphael]

BTW, I think the recommendation to mix infusion and extract is just an economizing measure. 36g of min leaves, for example, is a crap-ton of leaves. It's enough to pretty much clearcut the little mint plant in my garden. So Imagine a teaspoon or 2 of extract could keep the mint use a bit more reasonable. But I don't think the flavor will be as good.

 

I made mint ice cream with extract when I worked at an ice cream shop years ago. It was very high quality peppermint extract (nothing in it but mint and alcohol) but still tasted like 100% menthol. None of the delicate, floral flavors of the mint plant.

[Darienne]

 

Peppermint extract, for example, tastes like mouthwash.

It couldn't have been better said than this.  I always loathed peppermint and all the other mints until I tasted real mint.  Then it was a love affair.  Definitely infuse the dairy. 

But don't make the mistake a friend once made:  she chopped up the mint leaves finely before infusing them.  I guess she thought it would work better.  Not needed.  She could not get all the miniscule leave bits out of the dairy and the result looked very unpleasant to say the least. 

[paulraphael]

I don't really dislike mint ice cream made with extract. That super-mentholly flavor can be refreshing, and it's what I grew up with. It's just no match for the flavor of infused mint.

 

And I don't know why this is the case. An extract is an infusion. Maybe some of the volatile compounds are less soluble in alcohol than the menthol is. 

 

I'm surprised your friend couldn't get the mint out of the mix. I chifonade the leaves pretty finely; they all get caught by a strainer.

[Darienne]

I'm not sure exactly what she did, but she was certainly not advised to do it.  That was the last time we all worked together.  Some people are good for friends...but not for cooking partners.  It was a truffle making party.  And it's where I did find my confectionery partner, Barbara.

We all were learning how to make truffles at the time, and the mint was to be a truffle center.  It looked like (don't read this if you are sensitive...) the face of a three year-old boy who has needed to have his nose wiped for some time.  It was repulsive.   Never quite forget it.

[CharlieDi]

Thank you all,

After all being said I'm going for the infusion using the given ratios:

 

 

Per 1000g mix I use the following quantities:

 

Basil 28g

Mint 36g

Sage 18g

Sorrel 18g

 

Thyme 8g

Rosemary 12g

 

 

And, from then on I'll go making adjustments.

 

Thank you very much

Edited July 23, 2015 by CharlieDi (log)

[RWood]

When I make mint chip, I only use fresh mint leaves. I've never been a fan of mint extracts, never get the right flavor.

I have found that if you use a vitamix to burr the mint leaves with part of the milk/cream before heating, you'll get a lot more flavor. And it helps with a natural green color as well. It has gotten an murky brown color to it at times, but once I've tempered it with the egg yolks, it's fine.

[paulraphael]

It has gotten an murky brown color to it at times, but once I've tempered it with the egg yolks, it's fine.

 

There are enzymes in leaves responsible for turning them brown (and possibly dulling the flavor). When you temper the mint with the yolks, you're killing the enzyme before it can do any harm. Another approach is to make sure whatever liquid you add the herbs to is hot enough from the start. I believe if you plunge the herbs into 180°F liquid, this will deactivate most browning enzymes. It may vary from herb to herb. To be absolutely sure, you can do what mixologists do and plunge the herbs into boiling water for 15 seconds. They will stay green no matter what after that.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I have never made mint ice cream and I confess mint as an ice cream flavor is not high on my list of priorities.  However I am reading Van Leeuwen Arisan Ice Cream.  The authors give two variations of mint chip ice cream:  one made with mint extract and one made by blending fresh mint leaves into the base (p 33).

 

Myself, I am having a bowl of vanilla, churned this afternoon.

 

 

Edit:  anything to forget the okra.

Edited July 24, 2015 by JoNorvelleWalker (log)

[paulraphael]

My favorite flavors are herbal, but mint is low on that list just since it's the most familiar. Herbs like thyme and sage and basil make incredibly delicious ice cream, and even though it's not a new idea, these flavors still surprise people. If you're lucky enough to have an herb garden these are especially rewarding to make.

 

Thyme ice cream is special for me. In 1990 I had just finished my 2 year stint at an ice cream shop in Colorado. Like every other mom 'n pop shop, we thought we made the best ice cream in the world, and weren't shy about letting you know. After leaving that job, I took a trip to Paris and got taken to dinner at Taillevent—back then it was one of the best restaurants in France and had had 3 Michelin stars longer than anyone. One of the dessert courses was thyme ice cream, made by pastry chef Gilles Bajolle. 

 

One bite, and I was like, "Oh. So I guess we didn't make the best ice cream in the world. I guess I've never had good ice cream."

 

Anyway, I don't know if that would still rank among the best I've had, but it made an impression. I think of it whenever I make a batch of my own, which is quite a few times each summer.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Was the Taillevent thyme an infusion, or were the thyme leaves blended in?

 

 

Edit:  I might also put in a mention of Leslie's wonderful bay leaf ice cream.

Edited July 24, 2015 by JoNorvelleWalker (log)

[paulraphael]

It was probably an infusion, since there was no hint of green, but I'll probably never know for sure.

 

I believe infusion is a better method than blending in the leaves. Herbs are like tea; there's always going to be an ideal range of times/temperatures for getting the best flavors. If you go beyond this, you end up extracting things you don't want ... typically bitter or grassy / vegetal flavors.

 

The trouble with blending the herbs is that there's no way to separate the infusion from the rest of the ice cream making process. The herbs will infuse hot for whatever time and temperature you choose for cooking and pasteurization, and will infuse cold for as long as the mix ages. 

 

If you infuse beforehand, you have precise control over the infusion, and then can pick times and temperatures of the rest of the process based on other concerns.

[Alleguede]

To sieve very fine fine you can use a woman's stocking. It will allow you to squeeze out every last drop of extract. The final drops are generally the strongest.

[CharlieDi]

Hi guys!

As said, I made my ice cream wih the infused herbs.

It was quite tasty, in fact "overtasty" my parents told me

I infused 20 gr of mint leaves on 500 ml of milk

My next challenge is controlling the color, I put few drops of liquid colorant looking for a soft green but, after adding the yolks and going through the ice cream maker, is a grey - green (and unlikely) color.

Time of fine tuning.

Thanks for your advice  

[paulraphael]

I always look for mint ice cream to be white. Green just screams food coloring.

 

Maybe if you're blending the herbs in you'll get some color. Then it would make sense to fix the enzymes first with heat. But as I mentioned earlier, it's much easier to get good results with an infusion that lets you remove the leaves at the right time.

Edited July 27, 2015 by paulraphael (log)

[andrewk512]

Really happy with this cherry sorbet I just made. Had a lot of trouble with oxidation from my cherries last year and my cherry sorbet then ended up tasting like wood shavings. This year I heated the cherries up right after pitting them, just enough to destroy the oxidation enzymes but not so much to make them jammy.

 

506g pitted cherries

67g sucrose

11g inulin (optional, for body)

Blend, strain, freeze and process

 

Also having a lot of fun with this technique I discovered in the EMP cookbook too - infuse 3/4 of herbs into ice cream base, then blanch and shock and blend in 1/4 after. Nice green color with great herb flavor. This one is lemon verbena from my garden, but I have also done it with lemon basil and thai basil. I use 30g herbs for a 1 pint base

Edited August 2, 2022 by andrewk512 (log)

[rob1234]

1 hour ago, andrewk512 said:

This year I heated the cherries up right after pitting them, just enough to destroy the oxidation enzymes but not so much to make them jammy.

 

Nice, what temp is that? 

[andrewk512]

1 hour ago, rob1234 said:

Nice, what temp is that? 

Easiest way is to bring them right up to 90C then rapidly chill after. I think lower temps for longer time can work, but I didn't want to bother with experimenting (especially considering the cost and time of pitting enough cherries). It might be superstitious but I also make sure I am using a new set of utensils after heating them and not contaminating any uncooked cherry anywhere so as to not leave any residual enzymes that would eventually cause oxidation

 

Best way to find more about this is if you look into avocado browning, Ideas in Food has a blog post about it that has some lead points in the comments, and I've seen a few reddit posts scattered about. For stone fruit I find you are not losing really anything from a flavor standpoint by heating briefly to high temp. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by andrewk512 (log)

[rob1234]

Thanks. I have some cooling off now before I freeze it. Rereading your post I missed the rapidly chill after heating comment and just threw it in the blender, I rapidly chilled it now though 20 minutes later.

 

What spin setting did you use, sorbet?

[andrewk512]

10 hours ago, rob1234 said:

Thanks. I have some cooling off now before I freeze it. Rereading your post I missed the rapidly chill after heating comment and just threw it in the blender, I rapidly chilled it now though 20 minutes later.

 

What spin setting did you use, sorbet?

Should still be good! I spin all non-dairy on the Lite Ice Cream button

[ElsieD]

1 hour ago, andrewk512 said:

Should still be good! I spin all non-dairy on the Lite Ice Cream button

 

Have you ever timed the Lite Ice Cream button?

[andrewk512]

7 hours ago, ElsieD said:

 

Have you ever timed the Lite Ice Cream button?

 

Not that I remember, although I know I promised last year. I should get around to that... I have done different buttons side by side so I am confident it is the longest setting 

 

1 hour ago, Shelby said:

I made the best thing I've ever done in the Ninja yesterday.  Cantaloupe sorbet.  Melon from our garden.  Pureed --about 2 1/2 cups.  Simple syrup--3/4 of a cup.  Mixed together.  Frozen overnight.  Sorbet setting.

 

O M G

 

Can't wait for watermelon to get done.

 

Question for all of you smart people:  I want to make more of this but I don't want to make it into sorbet yet.  If I freeze the pureed mix (melon and syrup), will it be ok?  I'd thaw it out then refreeze in the proper container later when I'm ready to make more.

 

 

Looks wonderful! Should be completely fine, will get more ice crystals than if frozen alone but thawing and refreezing should fix that

 

I got some local canteloupe frozen right now cause I didn't have enough time to use it, hoping to do a sorbet soon

[sverreef]

On 7/23/2015 at 6:48 PM, paulraphael said:

I infuse into a solution of milk and sugar (both from the recipe) since sugar syrup is an excellent solvent for aromatic compounds. There isn't a lot of published research on infusion times/temperatures, so I've been experimenting. Currently I heat the milk/sugars to 82°C. I'm working on ways to keep milk proteins from curdling, but if they do, it doesn't seem to hurt the final result.

 

Herbs with big, delicate leaves (mint, basil, sage, etc.) I infuse for 5 minutes, with a large quantity of leaves.

Tougher, stemmier herbs (thyme, rosemary) I infuse for 15 minutes with a smaller quantity.

 

Per 1000g mix I use the following quantities:

 

Basil 28g

Mint 36g

Sage 18g

Sorrel 18g

 

Thyme 8g

Rosemary 12g

 

This is all a work in progress, but I promise all of it will taste way better than extracts. 

 

Is this still your preferred amounts of herbs and infusion times? I'm specifically looking to try thyme and basil with the ChefSteps Creme Fraiche recipe, since thyme and basil is supposed to work well with cloudberries.

 

I'm a bit surprised that you recommend infusion for sorrel though. I thought juicing or something like this was the only way to capture the bright and vibrant flavours of fresh sorrel leaves:

 

 

Or is it a different sorrel?