[Modernist Cuisine] Mac and Cheese (3•387 and 6•192)

[annabelle]

11 grams seems like a lot.

[Chris Hennes]

You can see the recipe here: 11g (4% scaled to the cheese) is correct.

 

ETA: It's only one gram more than is called for in the full Modernist Cuisine recipe, which I've made successfully many times.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Chris Hennes (log)

[FeChef]

11 grams seems like a lot.

It is alot. I use only 7g for roughly the same amount of cheese. It seems they use alot of water aswell. I do prefer the sauce to be thick and gooey so i start off with only a 1/4 of liquid and add while stiring. Probably less then 1/2 of the liquid MC recipe calls for. I also think using milk instead of water reduces the sour taste aswell. Cant imagine why anyone would like that recipe.

[Tri2Cook]

It is a higher ratio than other recipes I've seen for processed cheeses but I've done the MC recipe and there was definitely no sour taste. But that doesn't look like any sodium citrate I've worked with and I've purchased it from probably at least 4 different sources. I've never ordered it from Willpowder but what's already been mentioned, a mixup on the order, is a definite possibility (though I'm hoping that's just what Willpowder's sodium citrate looks like, that'd be a bit of a nasty mistake on their part). Calcium chloride in largish amounts, to me, makes for a very nasty sharp bitter taste but maybe there's some interaction with the cheese that leads to sour instead (if that's what happened here).

[FeChef]

Tri2Cook, As ive already mentioned, I have the same size container as the OP, from the same company and mine does NOT look anything like the OP's. Mine looks just like CH's picture. Very fine granules.

[Tri2Cook]

Tri2Cook, As ive already mentioned, I have the same size container as the OP, from the same company and mine does NOT look anything like the OP's. Mine looks just like CH's picture. Very fine granules.

Apologies, missed that. I'd say problem solved then. If you have the same stuff from the same supplier, that pretty much removes the "maybe".

 

[lesliec]

Is the 'Spherification' on the label another clue that what you've got is a calcium salt rather than a sodium one?  I haven't made spheres for a while, but I don't remember sodium citrate among the ingredients.  Sodium alginate, yes ...

[mark984]

Is the 'Spherification' on the label another clue that what you've got is a calcium salt rather than a sodium one?  I haven't made spheres for a while, but I don't remember sodium citrate among the ingredients.  Sodium alginate, yes ...

 

As I understand it, Sodium Citrate can be used to control acidity for the purposes of spherification.  I've never tried my hand at spherification though, so I don't know how exactly it plays into the process.

[mark984]

Just to update everyone, I'm thinking that this is indeed Calcium Chloride.  Yesterday afternoon, I decided to take a few more pictures to illustrate what the granules actually look like.  I left the lid off of the container while I transferred and viewed the pictures.   When I went back to the jar to cover it, I noticed that the granules were glistening with moisture.  As I understand it, Calcium Chloride is hygroscopic, while Sodium Citrate is not (at least, not according to Wikipedia). 

 

I e-mailed some pictures to WillPowder, and they replied that they would look into it asap.  In the meantime, I've ordered some more Sodium Citrate, and hope to try the recipe later this week.

 

Thanks to those of you who suggested it might be the wrong thing.  I'm glad I posted a picture.  Otherwise, there would have been a lot more wasted cheese in my future.

[Tri2Cook]

As I understand it, Sodium Citrate can be used to control acidity for the purposes of spherification.  I've never tried my hand at spherification though, so I don't know how exactly it plays into the process.

 

That's exactly it's function in spherification. Adjusting PH.

[mark984]

I heard back from WillPowder this morning and they confirmed that what I have is indeed mislabeled calcium chloride.  They are sending me a replacement jar of sodium citrate, and hopefully I'll meet with mac & cheese success later this week.

 

Good call to those who suggested it was calcium chloride.

[mark984]

Just to update everyone, I received my Sodium Citrate, and successfully made Mac & Cheese.   The sauce was a bit thin, but other than that, I would call it a success.  Not at all sour, and silky smooth.  Thanks again to all that commented.

[FeChef]

Just to update everyone, I received my Sodium Citrate, and successfully made Mac & Cheese.   The sauce was a bit thin, but other than that, I would call it a success.  Not at all sour, and silky smooth.  Thanks again to all that commented.

I told you that MC recipe uses too much water and too much sodium citrate. Next time, try using 7g sodium citrate, 8oz cheese, and 1/4 cup of milk to start, once the cheese is melted gradually add another 1/4 cup of milk or stop when you reach the thickness you prefer.

[mark984]

I told you that MC recipe uses too much water and too much sodium citrate. Next time, try using 7g sodium citrate, 8oz cheese, and 1/4 cup of milk to start, once the cheese is melted gradually add another 1/4 cup of milk or stop when you reach the thickness you prefer.

I wanted to make the recipe as-is as a starting point, and then work from there.  I did see your post and appreciate your suggestion.  I'll give it a try.

[jeffy]

I told you that MC recipe uses too much water and too much sodium citrate. Next time, try using 7g sodium citrate, 8oz cheese, and 1/4 cup of milk to start, once the cheese is melted gradually add another 1/4 cup of milk or stop when you reach the thickness you prefer.

I am having a similar problem with my Mac and Cheese, and am using the bare minimum sodium citrate possible.  My sodium citrate (also from Will Powder) looks like Chris's (the correct one), but there is a definite sour/bitterness to the mac and cheese that's pretty obvious.  It's barely tolerable but really kind of strange tasting.  Nobody else has this "off" taste in their mac and cheese?

[FeChef]

I am having a similar problem with my Mac and Cheese, and am using the bare minimum sodium citrate possible.  My sodium citrate (also from Will Powder) looks like Chris's (the correct one), but there is a definite sour/bitterness to the mac and cheese that's pretty obvious.  It's barely tolerable but really kind of strange tasting.  Nobody else has this "off" taste in their mac and cheese?

Some types of cheese will give you that sour/bitter taste aswell. A good way to determine is to use a mild cheese like mozzarella. I have made mozzerella cheese sauce using the amounts i mentioned and not notice any sour taste. Another thing to consider is if you have the temp too high and burn the milk or cheese, you will get a sour taste.

[Katie Meadow]

Forgive me for this question. I just can't help it and I am clueless about modernist cuisine anyway. What is the point of modernist mac and cheese? I mean, how is the final product different or better than traditional baked-in-the-oven-til-crispy? I wish someone would make it for me, because I can't imagine it.

[FeChef]

Forgive me for this question. I just can't help it and I am clueless about modernist cuisine anyway. What is the point of modernist mac and cheese? I mean, how is the final product different or better than traditional baked-in-the-oven-til-crispy? I wish someone would make it for me, because I can't imagine it.

Most of MC stuff is for "hipsters" but the reason for using sodium citrate is so the cheese doesnt turn back into a hard solid cheese, or seperate when you add milk or cream..ect..ect.

Basicly its like using a cheese sauce you buy in the jar, without all the processed crap tht comes in them.

Edited July 11, 2014 by FeChef (log)

[lesliec]

Hipsters?  Moi?  But that aside ...

 

Something which should be noted is that the MC M&C (say that fast!) tastes exactly like the cheese you put in it, which for me justifies using the best and tastiest you can manage to find/afford.  My pick is an aged gouda with some nice sharp cheddar.

 

Pre-MC I used to enjoy M&C but the contrast is huge - wallpaper paste compared to very creamy cheese, let's say - and I'll never go back.  I haven't had any issues with sourness; provided your emulsifier is actually what it says on the tin, I can only suggest trying different cheeses.

[heidih]

Forgive me for this question. I just can't help it and I am clueless about modernist cuisine anyway. What is the point of modernist mac and cheese? I mean, how is the final product different or better than traditional baked-in-the-oven-til-crispy? I wish someone would make it for me, because I can't imagine it.

 

Katie - I have not tried it but am tempted. My understanding is that the process gives you the creamy cheese from real good cheese not dulled by the flour of the  the traditional bechamel.  MC'ers - yes, no, you are in love with it???

[Tri2Cook]

Katie - I have not tried it but am tempted. My understanding is that the process gives you the creamy cheese from real good cheese not dulled by the flour of the  the traditional bechamel.  MC'ers - yes, no, you are in love with it???

I like it. I've never thought a béchamel based mac and cheese had the depth of cheese flavor I'd like it to have. No matter what kind of cheese I used. I like the texture of mac and cheese made with velveeta but the flavor leaves something to be desired. It's on the right track, it gives a pureness of flavor, I just don't personally love that flavor. The MC version is the creamy texture and pureness of flavor of a velveeta mac and cheese but the flavor is whatever cheese you use. All of the flavor of that cheese, not milk and flour flavored with that cheese. I like to use a nice sharp cheddar boosted with some blue but that makes for a pretty intense mac and cheese.

[KennethT]

Ditto what Tri said... the point is to get the ideal creamy m&c texture, but using any cheese you'd like and having the flavor be much more intense than it would be with the standard bechamel version. BTW, the same theory can be used with fondue - just adjust the amount of liquid for the thickness you want (and moisture content of the cheese).

[jeffy]

Some types of cheese will give you that sour/bitter taste aswell. A good way to determine is to use a mild cheese like mozzarella. I have made mozzerella cheese sauce using the amounts i mentioned and not notice any sour taste. Another thing to consider is if you have the temp too high and burn the milk or cheese, you will get a sour taste.

I'll try a milder cheese, but I usually use the Medium Cheddar by Tillamook, and it's not very strong.  If you taste a small amount the sodium citrate plain, how does it taste to you?  Perhaps we are just super tasters...

[Katie Meadow]

Okay, thanks for all the clarification. I get it. You want to recreate the "pure" texture of Velveeta (perfectly melted plastic) and "purity" of taste (no actual earthbound cheese products from 4-legged critters) but using real cheese and one chemical and you want to do it in a romantic chemistry lab-style white tile kitchen where the tables are beautiful black slate (in your dreams) and your middle school heart-throb is next to you, cool as a cucumber, while you are sweating bullets trying to melt--in this case--$35 per pound organic artisan cheddar.

 

Kidding aside, I do get it. Sounds yummy and gooey and melty and above all, nostalgic. Never gonna happen in my house, but invite me over, please! I'm trying to imagine how sodium citrate can seem sexy, but by candlelight or bunsen burner, many things are transformed. 

[btbyrd]

Leave bunsen burners out of it. It's not a difficult ingredient to use and is no more strange than something like sodium bicarbonate. You don't have to sweat bullets to use it... it's really quite simple. The fact that you can create cheese dips, sauces, fondue, and melty slices from high quality cheeses feels like magic the first time you do it. You can make a grilled cheese sandwich with Manchego and fig preserves and have it come out gooey and melty as if it were made with Kraft American Singles. That's pretty baller. And don't get me started on the queso you can make! The taste of artisan cheeses is amazing, but their melting properties suck. But thankfully that's nothing a little sodium citrate (or sodium hexametaphosphate) can't fix.

Edited July 11, 2014 by btbyrd (log)