Curing and Cooking with Ruhlman & Polcyn's "Charcuterie" (Part 5)

[jmolinari]

Kretch, no, Tenderquick is not the same as cure #1. Unfortunately, i've only used tenderquick to make pastrami which is not cured in a brine. I would follow the recommendations on other pages. This one:

http://www.sausagesource.com/catalog/mrtn-tndrqk.html

Says to use 1 cup in 4 cups of water. Tender quick only seems to have about 0.5% of both nitrates and nitrites, while cure #1 has 6.25% nitrites. The rest is salt and sugar. You might be able to call morton's and ask them the % of salt and sugar.

In looking at the "nutrional value" i found online, i looks like there is 1.35g of sodium per 3.5g serving, which is about 38% salt. The rest should be mostly sugar (60%?) That doesn't sound right, since sugar is listed 2nd, meaning there is more salt. Look at your package and see if the online info is wrong.

Alternately you could go by the recipe on Morton's page for corned beef,

http://www.mortonsalt.com/recipes/RecipeDetail.aspx?RID=43

I would probably go with the 1 cup to 4 cups water, to make a brine, and add the spices and herbs from Ruhlman, and order yourself some pink salt, might as well cure #2 while you're at it if you every think you might need it.

Soooooo...i hope i didn't screw up you telling you to get tenderquick, you said you needed it right away, and i know you can make corned beef with it, but you'll have to do some adjusting to the recipe. Definitely don't use it as if it were cure #1.

jason

[kretch]

  jmolinari said:

Soooooo...i hope i didn't screw up you telling you to get tenderquick, you said you needed it right away, and i know you can make corned beef with it, but you'll have to do some adjusting to the recipe. Definitely don't use it as if it were cure #1.

jason

←

No, this is great information, thanks again. I'll order the proper stuff for the future and try your above suggestions for the time being. Thanks.

[alexthecook]

So I cut off a few pieces off of my bacon to try it out (it still has to cure until Satruday to make it 7 days, and then I will smoke it).

It's good, but I detected a very faint "chlorine"-like taste. Have any of you experienced this? Does it mean something?

[Anna Friedman Herlihy]

Hi all,

Need some help with a ham....

Currently in the middle of making the brining step in the "Charcuterie" recipe for American-style baked ham. Problem is, there's not enough brine to cover the ham (part of the side pokes out). I think it would cover if I could lay the ham flat on it's cut end, but I don't have a proper pot big enough for it to lay that way. Well, I do have one, but I don't think it's a good pot for brining. (Maybe someone could weigh in on that too).

If I add more liquid:

Should I make more brine following the same proportions? (I'd need about half again as much, I think.) Should I just top it off with more water? (But I imagine that would change the chemistry of the brine too much).

The bigger pot's problem:

It's one of those old enameled iron pots, but it has a few chips in the enamel inside. So I'm worried about an iron taste leaching into the brine and/or discoloring the meat. Anyone know if this would happen with such a pot? If not, I can just use the bigger pot.

Any input from you charcuterie experts out there would be much appreciated!

Anna

[jmolinari]

I think the meat needs to be covered, and you need to at least use the right proportion of salt/sugar to water, if you don't feel like putzing with the spices.

Can't really help with the iron pot. Sorry.

[dougal]

A F H: no expert, but my simple-minded suggestion would be firstly to bag it, then before setting the bag into your pot, put something (suitable) between bag and pot, in order to squish the brine further up (over) the meat. It shouldn't matter what the thing(s) is/are because they aren't in contact with the meat or brine.

Alternatively, line the more suitably shaped pan with food-safe plastic, like a bag!

You could make up more brine in the same proportions, but, in theory (its late here and I'm not going into it now) it does change the curing conditions. Slightly. Its the proportion of meat to brine...

Easy thing is to use a bag - just take care not to poke a hole in it!

[Anna Friedman Herlihy]

Ah yes, a bag. Funny, I use bags for smaller cuts (and for whole animals), but hadn't thought of it for the ham, since it does fit in a pot, if imperfectly. Too bad we just used up the last of our XXL ziplocs at Burning Man. Will have to run to the store.

Still curious about the chipped enamel pot--if anyone knows the answer, please weigh in. I have another ham and a bunch of hocks I'll be brine curing in the future.

And curious about how adding more brine "slightly" changes things--i.e. within an okay margin of error for something large like a ham? Or not?

Thanks much dougal and jmolinari for weighing so so promptly!

[dougal]

  Anna Friedman Herlihy said:

... And curious about how adding more brine "slightly" changes things--i.e. within an okay margin of error for something large like a ham? Or not? ...

←

I wouldn't want to take responsibility, especially as a snap judgement.

You'd probably be absolutely fine, but using a bag and a space-filler is the easy, no-change-from-the-recipe answer.

The book doesn't touch on Brine Calculations.

Its something you only need to consider when branching out on your own.

The FDA's brine calculations are the basis of the FDA limits for nitrite and nitrate.

Whether or not these accord with reality, the limits are set on the basis of the calculations, so the calculations are the official guide as to what is considered a safe cure (or rather a commercially legal one!)

They offer two calculations. One for a cure to 'equilibrium', the other for a short cure where the only thing that is assumed to happen is that the meat absorbs some brine (and the salts in exactly the same proportion as they were in the brine).

The equilibrium calculation gives a different calculated result depending on the quantity of brine (at the same concentration). (Shown later) The short cure calculation method just depends on the weight increase through soaking and the brine's original concentration - and does not depend on the total brine quantity used.

Personally, I have criticisms of both methods (but no suggestions for formal alternatives), however they are what the limits are based on, but I don't really think either is individually fully justifiable for an 8 day cure. I think you are somewhere between them!

Note that in this specific case, the results of the two methods are quite divergent.

Lets consider a 6.25kg ham. (So an 11kg system of brine + ham)

At equilibrium 6.25/11 ie 57% of the brine's starting nitrite would be calculated to be in the ham.

For the 'pickup' method, an 8 to 10% ham weight change would be maximal (thats what you'd get at equilibrium), so maximum is 10% of 6.25kg, ie 625g of brine "picked up", meaning 625/4752 of the nitrite going into the ham, ie just 13% of the available nitrite.

Equilibrium 56%, pickup 13% - thats different!

The FDA calculations (for what they are worth) are found here

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDi...ives/7620-3.pdf

The relevant section starts on the 26th page of the PDF (bearing a page number of 21)

BUT should anyone look at the calculations in this document beware

- the "percentages" used in the calculations are actually proportions (so % nitrite in Cure No1 "pink salt" is entered as 0.0625 *not* the 6.25 you might expect). Check that sort of detail in the worked examples! {eg the calculation at the bottom of page "15", the 20th page in the PDF}

- of course all references to pints and gallons are to *US* pints and gallons...

- and formulae that use lb on both top and bottom, can of course simply have kg (or g) on top and bottom - its the ratio between the weights that counts!

As can be seen from my workings, I rarely use the equations in the form they are given, but I believe I *am* using exactly the same underlying logic. (Thinking in "pounds of nitrite" isn't my scale of working! )

And working in grams and kilograms is easy, at least compared to converting teaspoons into pounds...

Lets throw in the numbers for this recipe: 42g of "pink salt" at 6.25% nitrite means 2.625g of total Sodium Nitrite in the starting brine.

Equilibrium means the 2.625g ending up evenly spread between ham and brine, so we divide by the weight of the brine + ham total system (11kg for a 6.25kg ham) to get the final equilibrium g/kg of nitrite in the ham (and brine, its at equilibrium) and to turn that into parts per million, we multiply it by 1000.

I calculate this as 206 ppm nitrite for the recipe, if a 6.25kg ham is used. Hence even if such a ham were left in the brine for perhaps two or three weeks to reach equilibrium, then it would only be slightly over the FDA's 200 ppm "ingoing" limit (see the 17th page of the PDF with the page number of 12).

Using 50% extra brine (so 50% extra on salt, pink salt, sugar and water), means 63g Pink Salt, hence 3.9375g nitrite in the starting brine. The brine plus 6.25kg ham now totals 13.378kg. so, doing the numbers, there is an equilibrium at 294 ppm - a considerable change from before! And all we have done is use more brine, of the exact same composition!

Whether this matters for 8 days, I really don't know, but I doubt it.

As I said, I think it could be "slightly" different if you increase the quantity of brine.

Significantly different? I doubt it, but I don't know for sure!

Simplest to just use a bag to give yourself an ideal container!

[Sartain]

I think my family got tired of hearing about what everybody else was cooking out of this book. For my birthday they got me the Bradley Digital Smoker.

For the inaugral run, I decided on the Carolina-Style Smoked Barbecue (p. 92-93). Instead of just the salt and pepper in the recipe, I used a rub of salt, black pepper, garlic powder, paprika, and cayenne pepper. The shoulder I had was about 7.5 pounds, so I smoked it for 4 hrs 20 mins instead of the 3 called for in the recipe.

Here's the shoulder about to go into the smoker. I used mostly the apple brisquettes, with a couple of hickory thrown in.

After 3.5 hours, when I added more water to the water bowl. I had set the temp to 220, but it was a mighty windy day with the first sign of a chill, so the temperature varied up and down about 10 degrees. Not too bad though.

Out of the smoker, ready for the oven.

In the meantime, the barbecue sauce. The yellow streaks came from the dry mustard going in.

Out of the oven 4 hours later, pulling it to serve.

The end product, stirred together with the sauce.

We had this with potato rolls that we picked up from the Amish at the farmers market. By this time we had been waiting for it all day long and smelling the nice smells of the smoke and the pork, so I completely forgot to take pictures! It was might scrumptious - the meat was smoky and tender and the rub gave it a kick that made you sit up and take notice. The sauce was tangy with a little sweet, striking a good balance with the unctuous porkiness of it all.

I have a feeling I'll be working through the smoked foods sections of the book soon.

[Anna Friedman Herlihy]

Dougal,

Thanks for doing those calculations. Very interesting results!

I love that I'm learning more chemistry than I ever did in school from my various cooking-related hobbies (in addition to the relatively new love of charcuterie making, that includes wine-making and organic gardening--both very chemistry-intensive).

I did go with the bag method (gotta love those XXL ziplocs). The ham's got a date with the smoker and the oven for a party this coming Saturday!

[Stuckey]

Forgive me if the questions I'm about to ask have already been answered in this mammoth thread, but I haven't been able to read the whole thing just yet!

I did not have any luck sourcing curing salt in Australia in small amounts, so I resorted to ordering from America. The first thing I wanted to try was bacon, so last Friday, I got a small pork belly (about 1kg = bit over 2 pounds), and mixed up a small batch of the basic cure using dextrose instead of sugar.

I poured a bunch of the dry cure into a Pyrex dish, coated all sides of the pork belly as evenly and thickly as possible, shook off the excess, and put it into a ziplock bag and then into the fridge. I also added two tablespoons of the dry cure into the bag for good measure. I've been turning the belly over once a day, and so far, about 1/4 cup of liquid has come out of the belly.

My questions are:

1) Is there a risk of using too much cure? The recipe states using about 1/4 cup for a belly over 1.5kg. I think I might've used a bit more than that, for a belly weighing less than 1.5kg. Would this speed up the curing process, or would it cause some kind of problem?

2) The pork belly that I got still had some rib bones attached. What should I do with them? Remove them before roasting it, remove after roasting, or just leave them on?

3) Are there other tell-tale signs to gauge when the belly is fully cured besides testing for firmness? Should a fully cured belly be rigid and uniformly firm all over? I would imagine that my smaller belly will take less than 7 days to fully cure, but since this is my first attempt, I'm not quite sure how to tell if the cure is doing its work!

Thanks so much for any advice! I'll be sure to report back with progress reports, and hopefully photos! Cheers!

[jmolinari]

Stuckey, what are you trying to make?

How come you used dextrose instead of regular sugar? The sweetness level is different between dextrose and sucrose, although you'll probably be fine.

As far as using too much cure i think you should be OK. There is a risk of having too much curing salt, which can be unhealthy, but i'm not sure what the unhealthy quantity is.

I think firmness and if you really want to see, cutting a slice to see that the cure has gone all the way throough the meat, is the only way to tell if it is fully cured.

[michael_g]

  jmolinari said:

Stuckey, what are you trying to make?

How come you used dextrose instead of regular sugar? The sweetness level is different between dextrose and sucrose, although you'll probably be fine.

←

The recipe in the book gives listings for both table sugar and dextrose versions. I seem to recall the author's preference for dextrose. I'm still not clear why it matters which sugar you use: dextrose tastes less sweet, but you use more of it! Is the sugar there to increase the osmotic pressure in the meat, or to just counterbalance the salts, or what?

[Stuckey]

  jmolinari said:

Stuckey, what are you trying to make?

How come you used dextrose instead of regular sugar? The sweetness level is different between dextrose and sucrose, although you'll probably be fine.

As far as using too much cure i think you should be OK. There is a risk of having too much curing salt, which can be unhealthy, but i'm not sure what the unhealthy quantity is.

I think firmness and if you really want to see, cutting a slice to see that the cure has gone all the way throough the meat, is the only way to tell if it is fully cured.

←

I'm trying to make bacon.

I used dextrose instead of regular sugar because I already had dextrose on hand, and also because the authors state their preference in the book for the dry cure rub containing dextrose, because it dissolves easily and is more evenly distributed.

I don't think the belly has fully cured yet (it's been 4 full days), since there's still some give in the flesh. I'm hoping it will really firm up before 7 days, or else I'll be wary that something's gone wrong. When I think the belly has fully cured, I'll slice it in half to make sure that it is. I'm trying to be very careful on my first go - I'm sure I'll get better feel for things with a bit more experience.

Cheers!

[dougal]

  Stuckey said:

... I don't think the belly has fully cured yet (it's been 4 full days), since there's still some give in the flesh. I'm hoping it will really firm up before 7 days, or else I'll be wary that something's gone wrong. When I think the belly has fully cured, I'll slice it in half to make sure that it is. I'm trying to be very careful on my first go - I'm sure I'll get  better feel for things with a bit more experience.

←

Relax! If bacon doesn't fully cure, you've got salt pork!

With salamis and dried meats for eating raw, a little paranoia is probably justified, but bacon curing is really pretty safe.

The sugar in a bacon cure is just there for flavour, somewhat (ie more or less, to taste) balancing the salt. Its supposed to be a bit more critical in salami where you may have sugars specifically to feed a fermentation culture, which acidifies the sausage, one line of defence against botulism.

If you give it a bit a bit of time after you wash the remains of the cure off the outside, you are giving a chance for the salt (and sugar, etc) distributions in the meat to even out. Its a mistake to think that you can get the cure to stop dead in its tracks by washing off the residue.

I don't know about others but I visualise a 'concentration gradient' of the salts. The saturated excess at the surface sets a maximum, and it will taper off, the deeper you go in. During the cure, the taper gets flatter. BUT, unless you intend storage at ambient (non-refrigerated) temperature, you don't want it as salty throughout as it is during curing at the surface. So you don't finish the cure on a zero gradient. But having removed the excess, it needs a little time for the stuff thats inside to even out.

This is particularly important with British bacon, which doesn't get cooked before slicing and final cooking. Even smoked British bacon is cold smoked. The bacon that we buy in shops (sliced and packeted in supermarkets) is cured, but not cooked.

The North American cooking or hot smoking must itself help to even out any non-uniformity in the distribution within the meat.

[alexthecook]

By the way, upon smoking my bacon with some apple wood in my Bradley, any off taste (however slight) I initially detected is completely gone and the bacon is now just a pure, overwhelming piece of deliciousness. I crisped it up as lardons, together with some gésiers confits in a sald with a walnut oil and rasperry vinegar dressing, over oven roasted cubed potatoes cooked in duck fat. Do I have to describe how delicious it was?

[LooseCard]

Let me start with a "Hello" to everyone!

I got hooked on this thread, from a link off of TVWB.

1500 posts later, I ordered the book. At 2000 posts, I've joined the board, and... well... 2550+ posts, here I am (first post).

I've been a meat smoker for a few years now, and I'm ready to take it to the next level!

Just wanted to let everyone know that there's a new nut in town, and that's me!

[JaneMC]

After 2 weeks of reading this topic. I have decided to become a offical member. Why you ask....why not. But mostly (selfish as it is) so I can ask a question (s).

I live in the St. Louis area, we have a basement (which I'm going to get some space from hubby) from what I have read/understand to cure the meats I need "NO" light? Yes? The part I have my eye on does have a small window.

For those of you using your basement for curing you meats do use a small fan, if it's encloesd? Is it on all the time?

I have a list of must haves right now: hygrometer and a grizzly stuffer.

Then down the road it's a: Bradley Smoker and vacuum sealer.

I do have the great book on Charcuterie and Cooking by Hand.

I have done: pate, curing salmon, sausage patties and hamburger. I've always ground my own meat (KA).

First to do on my list: bacon, duck procuitto and pancetta.

Thank you for your help, I sure do wish I knew about this long ago. It's one of the best forms I've been on.

Jane

[qrn]

  Quote

Relax! If bacon doesn't fully cure, you've got salt pork! 

With salamis and dried meats for eating raw, a little paranoia is probably justified, but bacon curing is really pretty safe.

The sugar in a bacon cure is just there for flavour, somewhat (ie more or less, to taste) balancing the salt. Its supposed to be a bit more critical in salami where you may have sugars specifically to feed a fermentation culture, which acidifies the sausage, one line of defence against botulism.

If you give it a bit a bit of time after you wash the remains of the cure off the outside, you are giving a chance for the salt (and sugar, etc) distributions in the meat to even out. Its a mistake to think that you can get the cure to stop dead in its tracks by washing off the residue.

I don't know about others but I visualise a 'concentration gradient' of the salts. The saturated excess at the surface sets a maximum, and it will taper off, the deeper you go in. During the cure, the taper gets flatter. BUT, unless you intend storage at ambient (non-refrigerated) temperature, you don't want it as salty throughout as it is during curing at the surface. So you don't finish the cure on a zero gradient. But having removed the excess, it needs a little time for the stuff thats inside to even out.

This is particularly important with British bacon, which doesn't get cooked before slicing and final cooking. Even smoked British bacon is cold smoked. The bacon that we buy in shops (sliced and packeted in supermarkets) is cured, but not cooked.

The North American cooking or hot smoking must itself help to even out any non-uniformity in the distribution within the meat.

←

Dougal, Good info...

I have been using the weight quanity of cure that has the %amount of salt I want in the finished product ,and then letting it cure till it has all been absorbed into the meat..

If I want 3% salt/cure in the finished product that is the amount I use. That ,(for me) ,keeps it a lot simpler, so I dont miss one way or the other..

Takes an extra 3-4-days or so in the bag for bacon, but no suprises... then there is nothing to rinse off...I have also done that for hot smoked salmon as well (it absorbs a lot faster however).

Bud

[Stuckey]

  dougal said:

  Stuckey said:

... I don't think the belly has fully cured yet (it's been 4 full days), since there's still some give in the flesh. I'm hoping it will really firm up before 7 days, or else I'll be wary that something's gone wrong. When I think the belly has fully cured, I'll slice it in half to make sure that it is. I'm trying to be very careful on my first go - I'm sure I'll get  better feel for things with a bit more experience.

←

Relax! If bacon doesn't fully cure, you've got salt pork!

With salamis and dried meats for eating raw, a little paranoia is probably justified, but bacon curing is really pretty safe.

The sugar in a bacon cure is just there for flavour, somewhat (ie more or less, to taste) balancing the salt. Its supposed to be a bit more critical in salami where you may have sugars specifically to feed a fermentation culture, which acidifies the sausage, one line of defence against botulism.

If you give it a bit a bit of time after you wash the remains of the cure off the outside, you are giving a chance for the salt (and sugar, etc) distributions in the meat to even out. Its a mistake to think that you can get the cure to stop dead in its tracks by washing off the residue.

I don't know about others but I visualise a 'concentration gradient' of the salts. The saturated excess at the surface sets a maximum, and it will taper off, the deeper you go in. During the cure, the taper gets flatter. BUT, unless you intend storage at ambient (non-refrigerated) temperature, you don't want it as salty throughout as it is during curing at the surface. So you don't finish the cure on a zero gradient. But having removed the excess, it needs a little time for the stuff thats inside to even out.

This is particularly important with British bacon, which doesn't get cooked before slicing and final cooking. Even smoked British bacon is cold smoked. The bacon that we buy in shops (sliced and packeted in supermarkets) is cured, but not cooked.

The North American cooking or hot smoking must itself help to even out any non-uniformity in the distribution within the meat.

←

Cheers, mate.

I rinsed off my pork belly last night. I'm still trying to get through all the info on bacon contained in this thread. I figured after 7 days, the belly should be cured.

I'm just about to take the belly (at which stage does the belly technically become bacon?) out of the oven, after roasting at 200F. The book says it should take about 2 hours, but geez, it's taken me over three-and-a-half hours to get to an internal temperature of 150F! It's possible that the large difference is because I used a large sheetpan on the lowest rack in the oven, which might affect the air circulation. Next time, I'll try using a smaller sheetpan and use the middle rack of the oven.

How long has it taken others when roasting in an oven? Is there a real benefit from roasting at 200F rather than a higher temp to reach the same internal temp? Or would too much fat render off at a higher temp, even though the belly wouldn't be in the oven for as long?

Also, what should I do with the small section of ribs still attached to the belly?

Edited September 22, 2007 by Stuckey (log)

[JaneMC]

I hope someone can answer this as it seems the store around here can't. Does the Bradley Smoker only use their bisquettes? Or can I use other woods? I have the catalog and doesn't say.

Thank You,

Jane

[Chris Amirault]

Their bisquettes only, I'm afraid.

[dougal]

  chrisamirault said:

Their bisquettes only, I'm afraid.

←

There's a chap in the North of Scotland who'd disagree...

http://forum.downsizer.net/viewtopic.php?p=51094#51094

he uses branches cut into 1/2 inch thick slices then briefly soaked (see linked thread for further detail)

... though I believe its absolutely correct that (even in the US) there is no commercial alternative.

[joesan]

Nice one Dougal. Looks like it would be worth a try...

PS Everytime I look on here it's only you, me and Jason signed in on the forum. Has everyone else been charcuteried out?

[qrn]

  joesan said:

Nice one Dougal. Looks like it would be worth a try...

PS Everytime I look on here it's only you, me and Jason signed in on the forum. Has everyone else been charcuteried out? 

←

I am here,,,

Just looked at the drying box in the basement, and it is 64.4ºF, after a few months of close to 70...Time for the things I have been thinking of for the last few months...Onward!!!!

Bud