The chronic undercooking of pizza

[Fat Guy]

A few recent pizza experiences reminded me of how significant the problem of undercooking is in the pizza world, at least in North America but also in a few European places where I've had pizza.

I recently went to Lombardi's, which is one of the better (though not nearly the best) New York City pizzerias. My pie -- and every pie I could see -- was just not cooked enough. This made the whole thing flabby. This has happened to me three other times in the past couple of months. At the same time, I was recently at Nick's, which is by most accounts a lesser pizzeria than Lombardi's (though still a pretty good one), and I ordered my pie "well done." What came out was a pie so much better than the Lombardi's pie, and so much better than the previous pie I'd had at Nick's, that I'm now going to order all my pizzas well-done unless I have specific reason to believe that a given place cooks the pizza right in the first place.

[slkinsey]

Undercooking and overcooking depends a lot on the heat of the oven, in my opinion. And what it means is that the temperature of the oven is too low.

In coal-oven places such as Lombardi's, it really just comes down to poor oven management. They have been notoriously lax when it comes to keeping the oven stoked for quite some time. Also, I suspect that they allow the oven to run at a lower temperature during non-rush hours to conserve fuel. So if you eat there during off hours (which I know you like to do) you radically increase your likelihood of getting a pizza that suffers from the effects of an insufficiently heated oven. This can manifest itself in a variety of ways. Certainly you won't get that etherial, puffy, moist-crisp pliability of a coal oven pizza at its best. But beyond that you may even get an insipid pale crust in which the dough itself is not sufficiently cooked.

For steel deck ovens, some sacrifices are already made and some effects impossible, because these run at a much lower temperature. This is compounded by the fact that many steel deck oven places aren't even running their ovens at peak temperature. However, as you observe, it's certainly possible to get a better (albeit different) crust from a well-run steel deck oven oepration than a poorly-run coal oven operation.

In both cases, it's a matter of making sure that the crust is sufficiently cooked through without browning the cheese, which makes it leathery and unpleasant. When you have a medium-temperature oven (i.e., steel deck oven running at peak heat or insufficently stoked coak oven) there are really only two ways to get a decently cooked crust without overcooking the toppings: (1) You can go very thin crust and extra-light on the toppings so that the pizza has a much smaller thermal load. This, I have found, is the best strategy for someplace like Lombardi's, and when I'm there I always instruct the server to "tell them to put half as much sauce and cheese on the pizza as they normally put on there, and get a good char on there." You can get a reasonably high quality "coal oven effect" out of a place like Lombardi's if you tell them to do this. (2) You start with relatively light cheese, bake the pizza half-way through, then pull it out, add more cheese plus the other toppings, and put it back on the floor of the oven until the cheese is bubbling. This is what Dom does at Di Fara, and it works well. This produces a crisp, chewy and relatively dry crust.

If it's a steel deck oven set below peak temperature, and especially if they're baking in "pizza pans" the only way you can get a half-decent crust of this type is to bake the thing for 20 minutes, minimum.

In all these cases, the major factor is that the guy baking the pizza has to care.

Some people don't mind, or even enjoy browned mozzarella. I think it's leathery and unpleasant, especially when it's mediocre Wisconsin "pizza cheese" -- although I should hasten to point out that it also ruins everything that is special about fresh mozzarella or high quality low moisture mozzarella. But if you're one of those who appreciates browned mozzarella, you should always be able to get a better quality crust simply by asking for the pizza "well done."

[pastrygirl]

It seems many newer places are claiming that soggy in the middle is authentic neapolitan style.

Edited April 22, 2009 by pastrygirl (log)

[weinoo]

It seems many newer places are claiming that soggy in the middle is authentic neapolitan style.

←

Well, newer authentic Neopolitan places. Correctly cooked, with a softness due

to the use of olive oil, doesn't necessarily mean soggy.

Keste's pizza, for instance, may be soft/soggy to some, but it is in no way under-

cooked.

And most, if not all, out-of-towners that I take to my favorite NY style pizza place (Arturo's) - the first thing they say is - "the pizza is burnt."

[genarog]

Same experience couple of weeks ago at Zero Otto Nove. They have this amazing brick oven and are now serving undercooked, soggy pizza.

I don't know if the guy who came from Italy to the pizzas is still there or not, but the results are way off from what was a great margherita pizza a year ago.

[Chris Amirault]

Underdone pizza is also due to dough that's too thick. I regularly order my pizzas well done for the reasons Steven describes above, but they often still have a layer of raw -- not merely underdone -- dough due to poor technique or insufficiently pliable dough.

[Kim Shook]

Always, always, ALWAYS ! You are absolutely right. I have to say "very, very well done, please" and still isn't enough at some places. That's why I like places where I can get a slice, because when they put it back in the oven to heat up, it usually gets done enough (not always, though).

[Fat Guy]

Also, I suspect that they allow the oven to run at a lower temperature during non-rush hours to conserve fuel.

This was 9pm and the joint was slammed. If the oven wasn't hot enough then, it's never hot enough (which may very well be the case). My guess about the reason is, however, that if you cook every pizza for one minute less you can sell a hundred more pizzas by the end of the night.

But if you're one of those who appreciates browned mozzarella, you should always be able to get a better quality crust simply by asking for the pizza "well done."

←

(Raises hand.)

[slkinsey]

Also, I suspect that they allow the oven to run at a lower temperature during non-rush hours to conserve fuel.

This was 9pm and the joint was slammed. If the oven wasn't hot enough then, it's never hot enough (which may very well be the case). My guess about the reason is, however, that if you cook every pizza for one minute less you can sell a hundred more pizzas by the end of the night.

Right. Well, Lombardi's is notorious for poor oven management. Like Grimaldi's, if you want pizza from the oven at peak temperature, it's best to get there at the beginning of whatever the rush is. I find that these places tend to get the oven screaming hot just before the rush, but then are lax about keeping it there throught the rush (every pizza removes a little heat from the oven).

Still, regardless of the hour, Lombardi's oven is usually hot enough to turn out a reasonably good crust if you tell them to go extra-light on the toppings.

Of course they could just leave the pizza in there another 90 seconds, and that would make for a better crust. But it's also worth pointing out that this is tricky with a coal-fired oven. With any oven, there's going to be a "just right" temperature that bakes the crust the way you want it without overcooking the cheese and toppings for the technique you're using and the style you're working in. So, if the coal-fired oven loses enough stored heat that the crusts aren't coming out as cooked and charred as they should, it's not as simple as leaving the pizza in there for another 90 seconds because it is likely that another 90 seconds would mean that the cheese is browned and the toppings overcooked. Most people don't like this. When this happens they could start transitioning to the "Don method" of putting on most of the cheese after the crust has cooked halfway through, but they probably can't be bothered and this would decrease throughput. The real solution, of course, is proper oven management.

With steel deck oven pizza, where the temperature is set with a dial, there really is no excuse. It's either that they have set the oven temperature incorrectly for the technique and style they are making, or the pizzaiolo is impatient and pulling the pizza too early.

Underdone pizza is also due to dough that's too thick.

This is a good example of when the technique/style is not matched to the temperature of the oven. There doesn't need to be anything wrong with a relatively thick crust, but you can't do it in a coal- or wood-fired oven, or even a peak-setting steel deck oven unless you use a special, labor intensive technique such as Dom uses for Di Fara's square pizza (cooked in a pan with lots of olive oil, removed multiple times for additional layerings of cheese and sauce, etc.).

Edited April 22, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

[boagman]

Still, regardless of the hour, Lombardi's oven is usually hot enough to turn out a reasonably good crust if you tell them to go extra-light on the toppings.

Wow...there are just so many different ways that I recoil at this statement that I can hardly bring myself back into "calm, cool, and collectedness".

1. A restaurant, which you go to in order to have food prepared for you, doesn't know how to, um, prepare food?

2. At their peak performance, you *might* get a "reasonably good crust"?

3. Your best bet for getting a decent product is to tell them to *skimp on the product*?

Good sweet merciful heavens...why go at all? There has to be a certain threshold that you're not willing to accept anymore. If I ever had to tell a pizza joint, in order to get a properly cooked pizza, that they should go *light* on the toppings, I would absolutely want to shoot myself. If all I want is a decent loaf of bread, then I can get that in myriad places.

At my absolute favorite pizza place ever, Loui's Pizza in Hazel Park, MI, I also order my pizza well done, or extra-well done, or whatever. Loui's, however, has a crust that just makes me weep for joy, and it's certainly different (thicker, breadier) than NY-style thin stuff. I'm not really a cheese person, and pizza is actually the only exception, really.

But to honestly *reward* a place for lousy cooking by lowering their cost-of-product? My money goes elsewhere.

[pastrygirl]

Underdone pizza is also due to dough that's too thick. I regularly order my pizzas well done for the reasons Steven describes above, but they often still have a layer of raw -- not merely underdone -- dough due to poor technique or insufficiently pliable dough.

←

This brought memory of Zachary's Pizza in Oakland/Berkeley. For some reason their 'stuffed pizza' is very popular. They put an extra layer of dough on top, plus more tomatoes and cheese. Problem is, the extra dough doesn't cook enough in the middle of all those tomatoes, so you end up with a pile of canned tomatoes and wet dough. Ugh.

[tupac17616]

Underdone pizza is also due to dough that's too thick. I regularly order my pizzas well done for the reasons Steven describes above, but they often still have a layer of raw -- not merely underdone -- dough due to poor technique or insufficiently pliable dough.

←

This brought memory of Zachary's Pizza in Oakland/Berkeley. For some reason their 'stuffed pizza' is very popular. They put an extra layer of dough on top, plus more tomatoes and cheese. Problem is, the extra dough doesn't cook enough in the middle of all those tomatoes, so you end up with a pile of canned tomatoes and wet dough. Ugh.

←

I live in Berkeley and have friends who've criticized my choice never to go to Zachary's. Thank you for justifying that choice.

[pastrygirl]

Underdone pizza is also due to dough that's too thick. I regularly order my pizzas well done for the reasons Steven describes above, but they often still have a layer of raw -- not merely underdone -- dough due to poor technique or insufficiently pliable dough.

←

This brought memory of Zachary's Pizza in Oakland/Berkeley. For some reason their 'stuffed pizza' is very popular. They put an extra layer of dough on top, plus more tomatoes and cheese. Problem is, the extra dough doesn't cook enough in the middle of all those tomatoes, so you end up with a pile of canned tomatoes and wet dough. Ugh.

←

I live in Berkeley and have friends who've criticized my choice never to go to Zachary's. Thank you for justifying that choice.

←

You're welcome! I applaud your firm stance. I lived in Berkeley for a bit and had Zachary's a couple of times at parties. It's a crime against pizza.

[slkinsey]

Still, regardless of the hour, Lombardi's oven is usually hot enough to turn out a reasonably good crust if you tell them to go extra-light on the toppings.

Wow...there are just so many different ways that I recoil at this statement that I can hardly bring myself back into "calm, cool, and collectedness".

1. A restaurant, which you go to in order to have food prepared for you, doesn't know how to, um, prepare food?

2. At their peak performance, you *might* get a "reasonably good crust"?

3. Your best bet for getting a decent product is to tell them to *skimp on the product*?

Good sweet merciful heavens...why go at all? There has to be a certain threshold that you're not willing to accept anymore. If I ever had to tell a pizza joint, in order to get a properly cooked pizza, that they should go *light* on the toppings, I would absolutely want to shoot myself. If all I want is a decent loaf of bread, then I can get that in myriad places.

At my absolute favorite pizza place ever, Loui's Pizza in Hazel Park, MI, I also order my pizza well done, or extra-well done, or whatever. Loui's, however, has a crust that just makes me weep for joy, and it's certainly different (thicker, breadier) than NY-style thin stuff. I'm not really a cheese person, and pizza is actually the only exception, really.

But to honestly *reward* a place for lousy cooking by lowering their cost-of-product? My money goes elsewhere.

boagman, suffice it to say that I gather we have radically different criteria, preferences and standards when it comes to pizza.

[Katie Meadow]

Ah, Zachary's. Possibly the worst pizza ever. Thick rubbery layer of cheese that pulls off your slice in a single triangular slab. Of course I haven't had it for about 20 years, but I'm guessing it's pretty much the same. And it's often still crowded.

Then there's Blondie's on Telegraph Ave, and I don't think it's changed much either. It's its own creature--more like bread with topping, but it has a certain nostalgia factor and a bizarre integrity. A very nice pizza can be had in the East Bay at Pizzaiolo; thin and crispy, modest quantity of ingredients, very tasty. Not a quiet place to eat, though.

Then there's the ever-popular Cheese Board and Arizmendi pizza. My husband and daughter and I seem to be a minority of three: we can't stand it. The whole thing just oozes oil and the toppings are often really strange. Sue me.

[boagman]

boagman, suffice it to say that I gather we have radically different criteria, preferences and standards when it comes to pizza.

Fair enough, but the thrust of my point was that, in any case, one shouldn't allow a place's inadequacies to dictate whether they provide a decent product, much less one which the customer has to compromise on in order to get a decent example of said product.

The fact that our pizza preferences differ greatly, well, that just is what it is. If Loui's ever started to decline in their ability to put together and cook a quality product, they'd hear about it from everyone and their mother, I'd think.

There actually is a place in NY that I'm quite interested in trying, should I get there sometime in the near future: Una Pizza Napoletana. It certainly looks like a place I might greatly enjoy, especially for its insistence on great ingredients and the simplicity insisted upon.

Then again, I might hate it...but probably not.

[weinoo]

boagman, suffice it to say that I gather we have radically different criteria, preferences and standards when it comes to pizza.

Fair enough, but the thrust of my point was that, in any case, one shouldn't allow a place's inadequacies to dictate whether they provide a decent product, much less one which the customer has to compromise on in order to get a decent example of said product.

←

I don't think it's about a place's inadequacies - that's sorts like saying you shouldn't order your steak or burger cooked the way you like it. Or if a steak house serves their steak slathered in butter, you shouldn't ask for the butter to be left off. You're the customer, so order the food the way you want it prepared.

[Julianne_Reddin]

Heston Blumenthal tried to create the ultimate pizza in the 'In search of Perfection'

book and TV series - there was a lot of detail especially in the book on getting the right dough and temperature for the pizza to cook just right in (from memory) about one minute. It was pretty interesting especially his attempts to get an oven to the extremely high temperature necessary.

Has anyone attempted his recipe for this? There's no chance in my oven!

[slkinsey]

boagman, suffice it to say that I gather we have radically different criteria, preferences and standards when it comes to pizza.

Fair enough, but the thrust of my point was that, in any case, one shouldn't allow a place's inadequacies to dictate whether they provide a decent product, much less one which the customer has to compromise on in order to get a decent example of said product.

To be clear about what I have been saying about Lombardi's: I don't think that asking them to put half the amount of cheese and toppings as usual on my pizza is forcing me to compromise. I think that's the amount they should have been putting on there all along. But for me, the crust of the pizza is far more important than the toppings, and I think it's impossible to get the "coal oven effect" if the pizza is to laden with toppings. However, it is a sad fact that, for most people (you included, it would seem), the toppings are the starring act and the crust is a sideman at best. So Lombardi's goes too heavy on the toppings, I believe, because this is what most of their clientele cares about most.

But, don't get me wrong... I don't consider, nor does Steven consider Lombardi's to be at the pinnacle of NYC pizzerias. They definitely have some issues with their oven management and technique, in my opinion, that keep their product from being as good and as consistent as it could be. We could probably name at least a dozen in the City that are turning out a better product with more consistency. That said, Lombardi's still blows away 99.9% of the pizza in America. That's one great advantage of living in NYC. So you have to understand the context of the conversation we're having about places such as Lombardi's and their "underbaked" crust. The vast majority of people in this country, and even in this city would not consider the crust to be underbaked. This is evidenced by the long lines outside Lombardi's at the lunch and dinner time, and the fact that it is consistently packed during peak hours. But some of the more, shall I say, "crust-centric" pizza eaters, and especially those who have had the opportunity to experience examples of pizza crust being everything it can be (which might include places such as Patsy's East Harlem, Franny's, Sally's Apizza, etc.), there is the feeling that many pizzerias cold be doing more to make their crusts better. One way is figuring out how to cook them longer and more fully without browning the toppings. But, really, considering that the vast majority of pizzeria customers care much more about the toppings than the crust, it's not clear to me that this will ever be a huge priority many beyond a select few pizzerias.

[genarog]

It's not fair to expect from a pizzeria to sastisfy every customer's preference. How good could such place be anyway?

What I want from a place I like is consistency. I shouldn't have to tell them that I want my neapolitan style pizza well done. They should know better. Otherwise, it just becomes a place I don't like and I move on the next one.

[slkinsey]

Depending on what you mean by "well done" you are likely to be pretty disappointed by most Neapolitan-style pizza, I'd guess (and I should hasten to point out that the pizzerias we are discussing in this thread are not Neapolitan-style). Most true Neapolitan pizza looks like this. It's the "new American Neapolitan-style" pizza that has a very well-done crust that looks like this. In NYC, anyway, by guess is that this grew out of a fusion of true Neapolitan pizza and the traditional NYC coal-oven pizza, which has a very well done (to the point of charring slightly) crust that looks like this.

Getting back to the subject at hand, to many of us (certainly Steven and myself) underbaking crusts is an endemic problem that is present in most pizzerias. Not the best ones, of course, but even in "just below the pinnacle" pizzerias such as Lombardi's. So we're exploring some of the reasons why this may be so, and also what can be done to mitigate this problem in the event that one is not in one of the very best pizzerias.

[DTBarton]

FWIW, we went to Lombardi's for the first time about a month ago and had an excellent pizza. Definitely not undercooked, beautifully charred, and the mozarella had great fresh flavor. Only complaint was there wasn't much basil on the Margherita.

This was on a Friday at the start of lunch rush

[boagman]

I don't think it's about a place's inadequacies - that's sorts like saying you shouldn't order your steak or burger cooked the way you like it.  Or if a steak house serves their steak slathered in butter, you shouldn't ask for the butter to be left off. You're the customer, so order the food the way you want it prepared.

How one orders a steak isn't the same thing. If I order a 12 oz. ribeye prepared medium, and the place doesn't prepare it correctly, there's nothing in my brain that might even *remotely* consider that they might do better if they could cut the steak down 4 oz. to a smaller size of 8 oz., and serve me that (supposedly done correctly, in this case) at the 12 oz. price. That's lunacy.

To me, that's akin to asking a place to cut in half the "normal" amount of cheese and toppings that honestly belong on there in the first place. I shouldn't have to shortsuit my full price purchase because they can't fulfill their obligation. It's just my opinion, understand, but even so: wouldn't said place be better served by the customer stating in no uncertain terms that the place is undercooking their products, on the whole?

[boagman]

To be clear about what I have been saying about Lombardi's: I don't think that asking them to put half the amount of cheese and toppings as usual on my pizza is forcing me to compromise.  I think that's the amount they should have been putting on there all along.  But for me, the crust of the pizza is far more important than the toppings, and I think it's impossible to get the "coal oven effect" if the pizza is to laden with toppings.  However, it is a sad fact that, for most people (you included, it would seem), the toppings are the starring act and the crust is a sideman at best.  So Lombardi's goes too heavy on the toppings, I believe, because this is what most of their clientele cares about most.

Okay...stating the problem in this way causes me to read it in a different light. I can certainly understand this, and groove with it.

That being said, you couldn't be more wrong about my thoughts on crust vs. toppings. The very best part of Loui's is the crust, and it is a little piece of buttery heaven. It's definitely not the same type of crust to which you're referring, but it's absolutely fantastic in its own place. I like simple pizza, for the most part. The bread, sauce, and cheese (both in taste and consistency) are the biggest/most important parts of the pie, and when it comes to toppings, my favorite pie is simply pepperoni with green peppers (preferably sliced rather than chopped). I'm fine with pepperoni alone, or pepperoni with mushrooms, but when you start getting more crazy/involved, I lose interest fast.

Oh, and those pepperoni? They're underneath the cheese, and they're fantastic that way. The sauce is just wonderfully sweet and tangy. There just is no substitute for the best, eh?

[slkinsey]

To me, that's akin to asking a place to cut in half the "normal" amount of cheese and toppings that honestly belong on there in the first place.  I shouldn't have to shortsuit my full price purchase because they can't fulfill their obligation.  It's just my opinion, understand, but even so:  wouldn't said place be better served by the customer stating in no uncertain terms that the place is undercooking their products, on the whole?

boagman, you're still operating under the false assumption that asking for them to go light on the cheese and light on the toppings on a Lombardi's pizza represents a diminution of quality.

I think that part of their problem is that they're putting too much cheese and toppings on there, and this inhibits the full expression of the "coal oven effect" on the crust. If I were running Lombardi's, it would be standard practice to put on around half as much stuff as they typically do.

All you have to do is compare this Lombardi's pizza with a pizza from the consistently excellent Patsy's East Harlem to see that the Lombardi's pizza has way too much stuff weighing it down. If you order properly (no 5-topping pizzas!) and make sure they're going to be sparing with the toppings, however, it is possible to get a much better Lombardi's pizza. Still not quite as good as Patsy's East Harlem, in my opinion, because Lombardi's doesn't run their oven hot enough, but much better.

Of course, the fact is that the majority of Lombardi's customers are ordering >4 topping pizzas.

To be clear about what I have been saying about Lombardi's: I don't think that asking them to put half the amount of cheese and toppings as usual on my pizza is forcing me to compromise.  I think that's the amount they should have been putting on there all along.  But for me, the crust of the pizza is far more important than the toppings, and I think it's impossible to get the "coal oven effect" if the pizza is to laden with toppings.  However, it is a sad fact that, for most people (you included, it would seem), the toppings are the starring act and the crust is a sideman at best.  So Lombardi's goes too heavy on the toppings, I believe, because this is what most of their clientele cares about most.

Okay...stating the problem in this way causes me to read it in a different light. I can certainly understand this, and groove with it.

That being said, you couldn't be more wrong about my thoughts on crust vs. toppings. The very best part of Loui's is the crust, and it is a little piece of buttery heaven. It's definitely not the same type of crust to which you're referring, but it's absolutely fantastic in its own place.

Yes, exactly. What you're talking about is clearly an entirely different category of pizza crust than what we're talking about here. A thicker, breadier, buttery (and most likely oily) crust is not what we're after. This is something that, as I explained above, Dom does at Di Fara in Brooklyn for his square pizzas. Generally this is a style that supports fairly copious toppings and, while it can be good in its own way, in my book it doesn't approach the etherial purity of a simple flour, yeast and water dough blown up on a hot oven floor. I want by pizza crusts to be like amazing flatbreads I would be happy to eat with nothing more on top than a drizzle of extra virgin olive oil and a little coarse sea salt.

This picture of a Loui's pizza makes it clear that we're talking about something entirely different in terms of crust. Like I said... those can be good, but for me not etherial. And, frankly, not nearly as difficult to produce.

I like simple pizza, for the most part.  The bread, sauce, and cheese (both in taste and consistency) are the biggest/most important parts of the pie, and when it comes to toppings, my favorite pie is simply pepperoni with green peppers (preferably sliced rather than chopped).  I'm fine with pepperoni alone, or pepperoni with mushrooms, but when you start getting more crazy/involved, I lose interest fast.

Most people who think about pizza the same way I do agree that the best expression of the crust and the best pizza can only be achieved in a lightly-topped pizza margarita or pizza marinara (essentially a margarita with extra herbs and no cheese). Anything more (unless it is added post-baking, as prosciutto usually is) represents a trade-off compromise where you are sacrificing crust quality to gain in toppings.

Edited April 23, 2009 by slkinsey (log)