Cooking with "Chocolates and Confections" by Peter Greweling (Part 1)

[mrose]

This might help. There was a recipe from the 2005 World Chocolate Master competion for a sechuan pepper caramel. It had a very interesting taste.

150 g sugar

150 g cream

50 g passion fruit puree

30 g butter

75 g glucose

3 g ground sechuan pepper

50 g chocolate (I didn't use the chocolate)

make a any caramel, let cool down & add chocolate

Greweling does not give a cook to temp, I have found when making a caramel for filling molds 230F is a good temp.

[HQAntithesis]

Cream has a little less than 65% water, 35% dry mass (fat).

Passionfruit puree, non-reduced, has 84% water and 16% dry mass, and when reduced by half, has 72% water and 28% dry mass.

From the example Greweling recipe, you could take the 290g cream with 100g dry mass and 190g water and replace it with 250g of passionfruit reduction which has 180g water and 70g dry mass as well as 40g butter with 7.2g dry mass and 32.8g of dry mass (fat). The difference with the recipe now though is that you have a larger sugar content (fructose) and a lower fat mass but a similar %age water, which isn't the same thing as Aw level. If you wanted, you could try substituting clarified butter instead of normal butter to increase the fat level and lower the water level but then you'd have a thinner ganache as you can't get the creamy texture you get by adding unmelted warm butter to a caramel at 30-32C.

I'm trying to understand how to calculate theoretical Aw levels but it's still quite unclear.

[confiseur]

..A question about the recipes that use gelatin...is is powder or leaf? or is it possible to use both?

Secondly..when the recipe for a ganache says 'dark chocolate' for example is that 60, 64, 66, or 70% cocoa solids...'milk chocolate' 33, 35, 40 or 45% cocoa solids?

Depending on the percentages their will be quite a big difference between the finished ganaches..

[tammylc]

He doesn't specify percentages for dark or milk. And you're right that you could get different results depending on the chocolate you use, but knowing a recommended percentage won't necessarily help you. The thing you have to remember about percentages is that they indicate total cocoa mass in the chocolate, which includes cocoa solids and cocoa butter. IIRC, cocoa mass is about 50% each solids and butter. Many chocolate makers add additional cocoa butter to their chocolate to improve consistency and mouthfeel. But the amounts added can vary tremendously. So one maker's 70% could be 35% solids and 35% butter, and another's could be 20% solids and 50% butter. These differences will be as significant as using a 70% vs a 65%.

You'll just need to try the recipes at some cocoa percentage, and then adjust it based on the result you get compared to what you are looking for.

[John DePaula]

..A question about the recipes that use gelatin...is is powder or leaf? or is it possible to use both?

Secondly..when the recipe for a ganache says 'dark chocolate' for example is that 60, 64, 66, or 70%  cocoa solids...'milk chocolate' 33, 35, 40 or 45% cocoa solids?

Depending on the percentages their will be quite a big difference between the finished ganaches..

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I don't have his book but he probably uses powdered gelatin. Here's a handy topic dealing with conversion of Leaf Gelatin to Powdered Gelatin: Gelatin Conversion

Regarding the 2nd question, I would just repeat what Tammy said. Your choice of chocolate will put your personal stamp on the recipe.

[mukki]

Whew -- thanks all for the help on the passionfruit conversion. I should have known it would be more complicated than just adding passionfruit puree!

[chocofoodie]

Hi everyone,

Just got this book, its wonderful!

Quick question, he says that its better not to refridgerate the ganache overnight, but to leave it out. How long do you guys leave your ganache out? let's say I made the ganache today, left it out overnight tomorrow, made a batch, and had extra ganache left over. can I leave it out and use it the following day, or no?

[mrose]

Hi everyone,

Just got this book, its wonderful!

Quick question, he says that its better not to refridgerate the ganache overnight, but to leave it out. How long do you guys leave your ganache out? let's say I made the ganache today, left it out overnight tomorrow, made a batch, and had extra ganache left over. can I leave it out and use it the following day, or no?

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I have never had problems with refrigerating ganche overnight. I have also read that it is better to let the ganche sit for 24 hours to help improve shelf life. I believe this is a personal preference just like the discussion from his book about using tempered chocolate for making ganache.

[chocofoodie]

Thanks for the reply! I refridgerated it, and while it may not be as 'fresh' it still tastes fine.

On another note, grewling also says that when making molded chocolates to fill the molds and then let them sit for however many minutes you want to set the thickness of the shell. since i started doing this, i have been having a problem of some of the shells not emptying out. they just stay full. am i doing something wrong, like maybe my chocolate it to cold or something? maybe i should stick to the old way of just pouring it out right away. i was just wondering what you guys did.

[David J.]

On another note, grewling also says that when making molded chocolates to fill the molds and then let them sit for however many minutes you want to set the thickness of the shell. since i started doing this, i have been having a problem of some of the shells not emptying out. they just stay full. am i doing something wrong, like maybe my chocolate it to cold or something? maybe i should stick to the old way of just pouring it out right away. i was just wondering what you guys did.

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The length of time you let the chocolate sit in the mold before pouring is a function of how warm it is to start, its viscosity, and how cool your shop is. If you have a very thin chocolate (lots of cocoa butter) at 94F with a shop temp of 75F you will have to wait a lot longer than if you have a thick chocolate at 89F and a shop temperature of 62F. You have to adjust the time to your conditions.

That said, you can tap the back of the mold or swirl it in a tight circle to encourage more chocolate to exit if you went a bit over.

[Truffle Guy]

I do almost exclusively molded chocolates...a few hundred to a few thousand per week so I've had all the heartaches of molds. It actually sounds to me that you are waiting too long. If I understand correctly, your shells are still not solid and some are emptying while others are semi-solid (probably the outer shells). If that is the case you are waiting too long. A big impact is the mold you are using...a shallow, small mold will setup very quickly while a deeper mold may take longer.

Try waiting just 30 seconds and then empty the shells. You also may get better results if you then stage the cooling (if possible). You could put the shell under an air vent for a few minutes (until it has hardened) then in the refigerator until it comes out of the mold easily.

The state of your temper is also key...I use a continous tempering machine with 50+lbs of chocolate so my chocolate is always in temper. If you are pouring the chocolate back into a smaller machine or bowl....it may be bringing your chocolate out of temper.

Good luck...once it works for you in your conditions it will all come together for you. I had so many problems with my molding until I figured out the best process in my shop and I've probably had less than 50 shells not release properly out of the 20,000 or so I've done in the last few months.

On another note, grewling also says that when making molded chocolates to fill the molds and then let them sit for however many minutes you want to set the thickness of the shell. since i started doing this, i have been having a problem of some of the shells not emptying out. they just stay full. am i doing something wrong, like maybe my chocolate it to cold or something? maybe i should stick to the old way of just pouring it out right away. i was just wondering what you guys did.

←

The length of time you let the chocolate sit in the mold before pouring is a function of how warm it is to start, its viscosity, and how cool your shop is. If you have a very thin chocolate (lots of cocoa butter) at 94F with a shop temp of 75F you will have to wait a lot longer than if you have a thick chocolate at 89F and a shop temperature of 62F. You have to adjust the time to your conditions.

That said, you can tap the back of the mold or swirl it in a tight circle to encourage more chocolate to exit if you went a bit over.

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[Chris Hennes]

I just picked up a small (12"x12") granite tile to play with, so I decided to try Greweling's fondant recipe (1/4 batch, of course, to fit on the tile). I'd never made fondant before, so I didn't know what to expect, and I have a couple questions. When I was making the fondant I stopped agitating a few times to try to scrape the buildup off my scraper: is this necessary, or could I have just left it alone? Also, the last time I did that, at about the ten minute mark, as I was cleaning the scraper the fondant almost immediately turned into a crumbly-textured solid (no longer the sticky goo). I tried to kneed it like bread for a few minutes and got the texture into what I am used to fondant seeming like, but maybe a little softer. Greweling suggests that it should have taken 20 minutes of agitation to complete, but it was definitely much less than that. And I was under the impression that I should have ended up with a very soft fondant in the end: this one is softer than what you would cover a cake with, but still more like play-doh. Did I bring the temperature up too high?

[choux]

That's pretty much what mine turned out like too. It definitely ripened over the next day or two and became finer textured. Mine didn't take 20 minutes either. I think you did it right it's not supposed to be super-soft. If you want a super soft fondant for centers, you add invertase to that fondant and it liquefies slightly.

[equality5271]

And I was under the impression that I should have ended up with a very soft fondant in the end: this one is softer than what you would cover a cake with, but still more like play-doh.

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Just remember that what you are making is nothing like rolled fondant for a cake. that has gums and such (i think it can sometimes have gelatine)

Sugar, corn syrup, water, palm oil, natural and artificial flavor, gum tragacanth, titanium dioxide, glycerine, cellulose gum, modified corn starch, potassium sorbate, acetic acid. (satin ice rolled fondant)

[Chris Hennes]

And I was under the impression that I should have ended up with a very soft fondant in the end: this one is softer than what you would cover a cake with, but still more like play-doh.

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Just remember that what you are making is nothing like rolled fondant for a cake. that has gums and such (i think it can sometimes have gelatine)

Sugar, corn syrup, water, palm oil, natural and artificial flavor, gum tragacanth, titanium dioxide, glycerine, cellulose gum, modified corn starch, potassium sorbate, acetic acid. (satin ice rolled fondant)

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Sure, but when you're making it yourself isn't it basically the same recipe for all type of fondant, with only the sugar cooking temperature increased to make the firmer ones? That was the impression I got from Greweling, but obviously I could have misunderstood. I was thinking this one would be very soft based on an earlier comment in this thread, but looking at the recipes it is used in that is not really possible. It has to set up enough to be enrobed, at the very least. Thanks for the feedback---I think I must be on the right track anyway.

On an unrelated note, I have a batch of the ginger squares underway. The ganache tastes fabulous, and set up firm enough to slice in under a half hour, so I hope I don't mess them up in the enrobing!

[Kerry Beal]

I'd say play-do texture is about right for fondant. Syrup taken to a higher temperature will give a firmer fondant than that taken to a lower temperature.

I've had fondant that takes just a few minutes to crystallize and some that takes forever.

You can use this batch of fondant to make your next batch. You make a 'bob syrup' ie just make the same syrup and cook it to 118ºC (or 115 depending on the firmness you want). When the syrup cools down and stops bubbling, you add the batch of cold fondant to it. The remaining heat will melt the fondant and the fondant will grain the bob.

[Chris Hennes]

You can use this batch of fondant to make your next batch.  You make a 'bob syrup' ie just make the same syrup and cook it to 118ºC (or 115 depending on the firmness you want).  When the syrup cools down and stops bubbling, you add the batch of cold fondant to it.  The remaining heat will melt the fondant and the fondant will grain the bob.

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Without agitation, or do I still need to give it the granite slab treatment, and this just speeds up the process?

[Kerry Beal]

You can use this batch of fondant to make your next batch.  You make a 'bob syrup' ie just make the same syrup and cook it to 118ºC (or 115 depending on the firmness you want).  When the syrup cools down and stops bubbling, you add the batch of cold fondant to it.  The remaining heat will melt the fondant and the fondant will grain the bob.

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Without agitation, or do I still need to give it the granite slab treatment, and this just speeds up the process?

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You get to avoid the granite slab treatment - which after doing it once I'm betting you aren't too anxious to do again. The only agitation is stirring in the old fondant.

You can even cook your syrups to different temperatures and get a firmer or softer fondant using the bob syrup method.

[Chris Hennes]

You get to avoid the granite slab treatment - which after doing it once I'm betting you aren't too anxious to do again.

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How did you guess?

This sounds great - I saw that Greweling talks about adding "seed" fondant, but with his technique you still have to agitate it on the slab, just for less time. I am hoping to make the lemon logs, or maybe the mint patties, later this week, and I was wondering how I was going to make enough fondant for the recipes (1/4 batch from my little slab is not very much!). This solves that problem just in time - thanks!

Edited January 27, 2008 by Chris Hennes (log)

[Kerry Beal]

You get to avoid the granite slab treatment - which after doing it once I'm betting you aren't too anxious to do again.

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How did you guess?

This sounds great - I saw that Greweling talks about adding "seed" fondant, but with his technique you still have to agitate it on the slab, just for less time. I am hoping to make the lemon logs, or maybe the mint patties, later this week, and I was wondering how I was going to make enough fondant for the recipes (1/4 batch from my little slab is not very much!). This solves that problem just in time - thanks!

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You need to use as much 'seed' as syrup. I suppose that Greweling is adding a smaller amount and then agitating (much as you would do when adding fondant to fudge to grain it). So do another quarter batch, seed it, then you can seed a half batch with what you have made. Let us know how it goes.

[Chris Hennes]

I just finished the Gingerbread Squares, and I'm really happy with them. Of course, the perfectionist in me can see a million things to work on, but thanks to all the advice I've gotten here I'm definitely improving. Here they are (as usual, more photos at my website):

The thing I found most helpful was dropping them into the enrobing bowl upside down and then pushing at the edge to flip them up onto the fork---it took me a while to get the hang of it, but since these are short and squat it was much easier than with the habanos, and I was able to get it to work most of the time by the end. I still had trouble maintaining the appropriate temperature for the chocolate, but I just need some more time to work out the heating pad-to-towel ratio, I think.

So, thank you all for your help with this new hobby: so far, so good!

[Chris Hennes]

You need to use as much 'seed' as syrup.  I suppose that Greweling is adding a smaller amount and then agitating (much as you would do when adding fondant to fudge to grain it).  So do another quarter batch, seed it, then you can seed a half batch with what you have made.  Let us know how it goes.

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OK, I just tried this, and I have some questions. First, is there some trick to handling glucose syrup? I'm fairly certain it is the stickiest substance I have ever dealt with. I feel like I end up wasting twice as much as a use because it gets so stuck to every utensil I try to scoop it out of the bucket with! Second, I brought the sugar syrup up to temp and then added the "seed" fondant that I made yesterday. After stirring for a few minutes the seed fondant was completely melted and incorporated and the fondant looked like Elmer's glue---does that sound about right? But what then? Do I keep stirring until it is cool, or just pour it into a container? Does it also need to "ripen" overnight, or is it ready to use now? I just stopped stirring and poured it into a container, so hopefully I didn't just ruin it!

[Kerry Beal]

You need to use as much 'seed' as syrup.  I suppose that Greweling is adding a smaller amount and then agitating (much as you would do when adding fondant to fudge to grain it).  So do another quarter batch, seed it, then you can seed a half batch with what you have made.  Let us know how it goes.

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OK, I just tried this, and I have some questions. First, is there some trick to handling glucose syrup? I'm fairly certain it is the stickiest substance I have ever dealt with. I feel like I end up wasting twice as much as a use because it gets so stuck to every utensil I try to scoop it out of the bucket with! Second, I brought the sugar syrup up to temp and then added the "seed" fondant that I made yesterday. After stirring for a few minutes the seed fondant was completely melted and incorporated and the fondant looked like Elmer's glue---does that sound about right? But what then? Do I keep stirring until it is cool, or just pour it into a container? Does it also need to "ripen" overnight, or is it ready to use now? I just stopped stirring and poured it into a container, so hopefully I didn't just ruin it!

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Just pour it into a container as you did. Let it ripen overnight and see how it looks in the am.

I scoop out my glucose into a couple of 1 litre plastic yogurt containers and with a wide mouth funnel I put some into a corn syrup squeeze bottle. When I need large amounts I just let it pour from the yogurt container into the bowl or pot sitting on the scale. I sort of turn the container to cut off the flow. If I need 50 grams then I just squeeze it out of the corn syrup bottle.

I use a great big spoon to scoop the glucose out of the bucket (I have a 35 kg pail) and then a knife or silicone spatula to scrape the excess off when I'm done.

[Chris Hennes]

I scoop out my glucose into a couple of 1 litre plastic yogurt containers and with a wide mouth funnel I put some into a corn syrup squeeze bottle.  When I need large amounts I just let it pour from the yogurt container into the bowl or pot sitting on the scale.  I sort of turn the container to cut off the flow.  If I need 50 grams then I just squeeze it out of the corn syrup bottle.

That's a good idea - I usually only need small quantities (around 50 grams), so a squeeze bottle would be perfect. I wonder if you can get food safe refillable caulk tubes? That would help minimize waste, too. Do you have a problem getting it all out of the corn syrup bottle? It seems much more viscous than corn syrup, but maybe I've just never dealt with corn syrup in these quantities.

[gfron1]

I've not played with glucose, but based on Chris' idea, what about a decorating gun? Do they come with caps?