Steve Shaw, eGullet and Joanne Kates

[Anna N]

Joanne Kates makes mention of Steven and his book Turning the Tables in today's column. He is described as "the guy behind the foodie website eGullet...". I will see if I can link to it.

No southern hospitality...

Edited to add link.

Edited February 4, 2006 by Anna N (log)

[jayt90]

Well, Kates says that Stephen trashes Canadian service standards, worse than U.S. or European.

[jamiemaw]

Is Joanne Kates a restaurant reviewer or a national embarrassment? A professional victim ("I won't have what she's having") or merely comic relief on a Saturday morning? It's very bad form for the newspaper that attempts to be Canada's national voice to enjoin her monotone each week while she inexpertly reviews within a radius of 10 kilometres. In this week's howler, Ms. Kates is amazed when her water is repoured throughout a meal at a Danny Meyer restaurant in New York. And should we care that Julia Roberts had cast her imprimateur on the Houston's steakhouse in Santa Monica?

How hapless can one person be in a restaurant? Amusingly, she mentions Steven Shaw's book, which provides some tips for navigating a dining experience. Is service really as bad in Toronto as she maintains? And instead of her tired "I came, I ate, I left" methodology, wouldn't it be interesting to gain a little local context occasionally? In this case, why not compare other steakhouse dining experiences in Toronto, which is vestigially rich in them. For instance, I'd be interested to know if David Aisenstat is going to hand Houston's their arse on a wooden plate.

According to Kates, Steven Shaw says "the best restaurant service is in Europe. The United States ranks second and . . . in most of Canada service is almost as bad as in the United Kingdom." Not only is this sweeping assertion untrue, it's based on a breathtakingly small sample (without benefit of references), and subtracts credibility from some of Steven's other, better-researched hypotheses such as how to make a dinner reservation.

Edited February 5, 2006 by jamiemaw (log)

[Csaville]

Is service really as bad in Toronto as she maintains?

According to Kates, Steven says "the best restaurant service is in Europe. The United States ranks second and . . . in most of Canada service is almost as bad as in the United Kingdom." Unfortunately, not only is that sweeping assertion untrue, it's based on a breathtakingly small sample, and removes credibility from some of Steven's other, better-researched hypotheses.

←

Researched or not, she's right. Nowhere on earth have I experienced such a plethora of bad service as in Toronto.

[Fresser]

Are you tired of my rant about the bad service in Toronto restaurants?

You are positively clairvoyant, Ms. Kates.

[rgruby]

Are you tired of my rant about the bad service in Toronto restaurants?

You are positively clairvoyant, Ms. Kates.

←

Yeah, it's a constant. But she's not wrong on this topic. (I don't really care about whether someone takes my coat or not - but indifferent (not necessarily even inept when attention is (finally) paid - although there is no shortage of that either) service is the rule rather than the exception here. And at all levels of dining, in my experience. That just should not be the case). Exceptions, of course, abound. If this thread grows legs, I hope that examples of exemplary service will come to the fore. And that egulleters and others reading this will check out those establishments. And, now, back to my rant.

George Brown has courses in Culinary Management that deal primarily with front of house. Where are those people going? What are they learning? Are they - if slowly - improving the service in Toronto and area restaurants?

Why don't the restauranteurs here give a shit about decent service? (No doubt many do - at least in the abstract, but service in TO restos remains circumspect at best.) Who, if anyone, will rise up and be our Danny Meyer?

Can I highjack this thread into a broader commentary on service in TO restos (Anna N? Jake?). If not, I think it deserves its own thread.

Cheers,

Geoff Ruby

[Anna N]

Are you tired of my rant about the bad service in Toronto restaurants?

You are positively clairvoyant, Ms. Kates.

←

...

Can I highjack this thread into a broader commentary on service in TO restos (Anna N? Jake?). If not, I think it deserves its own thread.

Cheers,

Geoff Ruby

←

Feel free to highjack on my account. I just wanted to share the bit about Steve and eGullet. My experience of service in the GTA is limited to occasional visits to The Mandarin where, incidentally, the service is stellar even though it's buffet style. The host staff and the wait staff treat diners with courtesy and lots of smiles.

[Mallet]

last time I checked, Toronto did not equal Canada

[Csaville]

last time I checked, Toronto did not equal Canada

←

True enough, but compared to multiple places in Europe, I've had awful service in Vancouver, Quebec City (though not as often), Montreal, Halifax, Lunenberg, Yarmouth, Whistler, Calgary.... hmmm I see a pattern.

I think what gets me is that you can get good service here, if you pay. BIG BUCKS! Pay large and get treated properly (not always, but the odds are better). In Europe, go to a little cafe with a prix fixe menu and get treated like a member of the family (not always, but the odds are better)...

C

[Fat Guy]

Just to place those comments in context, I was writing about the issue of tipping and giving examples of why the assumption that tipping equals better service doesn't hold true from an international perspective: France, where there is a service charge, has better service than the US or Canada, where tipping is the norm.

For another thing, as an empirical matter, there appears

to be little causal relationship between the existence of tipping

and good service. The best service in the Western

world is at the Michelin three-star restaurants of Europe,

where there is no tipping. This is because the waiters at the

best restaurants of Europe are professionals, trained in

professional service academies and driven by the same desire

for excellence that makes any professional do a job

well despite the absence of tipping. Most top restaurants

in America, where there is tipping, come in a distant second

when compared to their Michelin-starred rivals. The

rest of the restaurants in Europe and America are a mixed

bag—I’ve experienced extremes of service at restaurants in

every country I’ve visited. The only country where I’ve

never had bad service is Singapore. Despite an aggressive

market economy, though, there is no tipping in Singapore.

British service tends toward the abominable, to be sure,

but I think the primary explanation for that is a limited

gastronomic tradition in that country. In most of Canada,

where there is tipping, service is almost as bad as in the

United Kingdom.

(Turning the Tables, page 169)

With respect to service in Canada, when I've written (on several occasions) about how weak it is, the Canadian tourism boosters have always bristled and said defensive things like "His sample size is too small." (More than a hundred restaurants in nine provinces of Canada just isn't enough.) They'd be better off writing about how to improve the sorry state of Canadian restaurant service. Certainly, they're only fooling themselves.

[phaelon56]

Researched or not, she's right.  Nowhere on earth have I experienced such a plethora of bad service as in Toronto.

←

Many years ago (perhaps things have not changed?) on a weekend visit to Toronto I experienced the worst service I've ever encountered. It wasn't just bad - it was blatantly racist (I was part of a mixed couple - my GF was African-American). I wanted to complain to management andf she just wanted to leave and put it behind us to avoid ruining our weekend.

The saving grace was visiting the now long defunct Italian restaurant "Noodles" the following evening. The owner/chef Dante made us feel like VIP's - it was perhaps the most rewarding evening of dining I've ever experienced - oddly juxtaposed with the absolute worst one.

[Fat Guy]

There are most definitely some happy exceptions to the bad-service-in-Canada rule, and they should be celebrated to high heaven.

[Lesley C]

Speaking for Montreal, I would say the service here is really very good.

The last time I was in Toronto (ages ago) our waiter asked my dining companion if he was as "obnoxious as his shirt." I couldn't beleive it!

[rjwong]

True enough, but compared to multiple places in Europe, I've had awful service in Vancouver, Quebec City (though not as often), Montreal, Halifax, Lunenberg, Yarmouth, Whistler, Calgary.... hmmm  I see a pattern.

←

Do you mean there's an underbelly to the Vancouver dining scene?

[gruyere]

Toronto certainly does not equal Canada. I find the service in Montreal to be much better on average than TO.

But I would go a step further and say that the worst service I have experienced is in the U.S. outside of the major centers. There is no doubt that any knowledgeable person would rank NYC as a food city of international class. But outside of a few major cities the knowledge of front of the house staff is remarkably unsophisticated. French wines are almost unheard of and staff’s ability to discuss some of the world’s best products is highly limited or non-existent.

By way of clarification I don’t think of this approach as good service: “My name is Troy and I’ll be you’re food service consultant tonight and this here is Nancy (big smile) and she’ll be pouring your wine. Now why don’t we just go ahead and get ya started with some crab dip?”

Patron: “We’ll just start with a red Bordeaux, but I don’t see any on the menu.”

Waiter: “Well now is that a Napa Valley or Sonoma grape, cause Shane over there is a so-mell-e-ay and he’ll be real happy ta fix ya up with one them Bore-do-o-s.

Patron: Maybe we’ll just start with a bottle of San Pellegrino. Is there something on the menu that is particularly recommended tonight?

Waiter: “Everything on the menu is fantastic…… I’m not sposed to do this but if ya order the chicken fingers with the special barbeque sauce I’ll bring ya a side of honey mustard for no extra charge.”

Fast forward to meal-end, Waiter: “Are ya still workin’ on that or can I put it in a doggie bag? “

I frequently travel to the U.S. (from Montreal) and am often in non-major centers. It really is incredible just how lacking the cuisine of the average American town is. You would think that Sarasota, for example, would not exactly be the backwoods, but on a recent trip there I would rank it extremely low on any reasonable scale. Wine lists are almost all Californian and presentation and ingredients outside of ‘Hamburger Helper’ are pretty much non-existant.

To the masses the cuisine of America is fast food or if you want a Gourmet experience try TGI Fridays or if you really want to go upscale stand in line with your restaurant beeper at The Cheesecake Factory.

FG makes reference to service in the UK as close the world’s worst. There is no doubt that it is certainly not the world’s best, but in my travels there (2-3 times a year) I find it is improving at one of the most encouraging rates that I am aware of.

[jamiemaw]

Just to place those comments in context, I was writing about the issue of tipping and giving examples of why the assumption that tipping equals better service doesn't hold true from an international perspective: France, where there is a service charge, has better service than the US or Canada, where tipping is the norm.

For another thing, as an empirical matter, there appears

to be little causal relationship between the existence of tipping

and good service. The best service in the Western

world is at the Michelin three-star restaurants of Europe,

where there is no tipping. This is because the waiters at the

best restaurants of Europe are professionals, trained in

professional service academies and driven by the same desire

for excellence that makes any professional do a job

well despite the absence of tipping. Most top restaurants

in America, where there is tipping, come in a distant second

when compared to their Michelin-starred rivals. The

rest of the restaurants in Europe and America are a mixed

bag—I’ve experienced extremes of service at restaurants in

every country I’ve visited. The only country where I’ve

never had bad service is Singapore. Despite an aggressive

market economy, though, there is no tipping in Singapore.

British service tends toward the abominable, to be sure,

but I think the primary explanation for that is a limited

gastronomic tradition in that country. In most of Canada,

where there is tipping, service is almost as bad as in the

United Kingdom.

(Turning the Tables, page 169)

←

Tips and Techniques

I was half-pulling your leg Steven.

But sweeping generalizations such as this quote from your book (and your further assertion that France has better service than the US or Canada as above) are—if you’ll excuse me—of little service to the reader or to you. Not incidentally, this discussion has little to do with Canada and much more to do with generalizations, ahem, in general. Interestingly, I see you cite "Europe" in your book, but "France" when you introduce the quote above. Perhaps that's a more accurate statement based on your own experiences.

First, let’s deal with the most egregious statement: “British service tends toward the abominable, to be sure, but I think the primary explanation for that is a limited gastronomic tradition in that country.”

On behalf of our British friends, let’s set the record straight.

Britain has as lengthy and honourable a record of gastronomic service tradition—at court, in private homes and most certainly in restaurants—as most European countries, and a significantly longer service tradition than America and Canada.

Edward Lloyd’s coffee house was well established in 1688 when it became the de facto brokerage and restaurant for marine insurance underwriters. Rules has been in continuous operation since 1798. And, FYI, London’s first recorded curry house opened in 1733, quite near my office. It, alas, has vanished. So the Brits had already been eating chicken tika for three decades when Boulanger opened his restorative soup shop (1766) in Paris.

It’s has been my experience that at its higher end, British service can be exceptional, and often without the haughty attitudes sometimes encountered in continental Europe at the hands of endentured servers. I can think of many pleasant evenings in London and the shires improved by the kindness of strangers.

In the CFD sector and beneath it though, British service can tend toward the awkward and laconic, but not for lack of culinary tradition. Rather, the reasons are linked both to a vestigial culture of class consciousness (low status), low basic wages and benefits versus a high cost of living, and a lack of incentive.

Seemingly contrary to your argument though, British service is often included in the cheque. I think this becomes especially apparent in CFD rooms.

Nothing in your quotation mentions relative economics, which surely must enter into the discussion. Michelin-starred restaurants have professional, career servers because they must, and because they can afford them, if barely. But they come at a very high price and, like the European establishments where they work, are a dying breed.

The central tenet of your hypothesis relates to service culture in four very large geographic areas—the United Kingdom, Europe, America and Canada—and one very small one, Singapore. You say “most top restaurants in America, where there is tipping, come in a distant second when compared to their Michelin-starred rivals.” You then state “in most of Canada, where there is tipping, the service is almost as bad as in the United Kingdom.” Where there is little tipping.

First, my experience suggests that the cliché of the haughty, attitudinally-challenged French waiter is not all smoke. The same can be true in other European countries, where laconic and unfriendly service—from Tallin to Trieste, and Oslo to Oberpfaffenhofen—can ruin a well-prepared meal. In some cases I’d gladly parachute in an enthusiastic American server (say, from a Danny Meyer restaurant) to replace the imperious snob who deigned to trundle my dinner 20 feet.

Or for the lecture we received in one (formerly) three-starred room that began with “Americans have no culinary foundation or traditions, therefore you are not qualified to judge our cuisine.” After explaining, in our polished patois, that a.) We were not Americans and b.) Madame’s duck was still brutally vulcanized, we left to eat under more cheerful circumstances.

Although tipping is part of our dining culture in Canada (albeit slightly less so than in the US), it’s important to the discussion to draw economic distinctions. First, restaurant wages are as much as 3 ½ times that of some American states. But restaurant prices can be significantly less, about 20% less than in Seattle and as much as 30% less than in New York for a comparable experience. So, it follows that there are often fewer floor staff here doing more work than in comparable restaurants. (Sometimes that's an advantage; there are fewer people attending the table and all that can invite.) Lastly, Canadian servers are universally attractive and few visitors complain if they dawdle a bit as long as they don't disappear completely.

But paradoxically, in the Western Canadian CFD sector, although there is not a lengthy tradition of career professionals (many servers are university students), service is relatively better than in like-American, -British and -European restaurants. That‘s largely due to the extraordinary investment in training (as much as $75,000 per store in pre-opening training expenses) underwritten by chains such as Earls, Cactus Club, The Keg et al. Although only a slim minority become career servers (some become managers), I’d argue that they all become better doctors, lawyers and sales managers because they understand the benefit of their needs satisfaction training and because they learn the value of remaining (financially) motivated. In short, short-term workers often respond well to short-term gratification.

That may also explain why so many European, British and American restaurant executives visit Western Canada, the incubus of both superior CFD concepts and small plates dining on this continent, both of which are service-intensive. The reason: To inspect firsthand exactly why the food and service experience is relatively better and at lower price-points.

Importantly, those same executives make a demographic distinction between Fine Dining and CFD, which is the way most of the western world dines out, most of the time, and which makes for a more valid and comparable test for incentive-based service than fine dining. The Europeans who visit us (and vice versa) are very conscious of the quickly changing landscape of service in their countries and resultantly are the most anxious to motivate their staff. They often explain that they feel hidebound by a service culture that encourages mediocrity and laziness.

Lastly, I think the reason there are relatively fewer career service professionals in North America has more to do with social status and the known hazards that late hours and alcohol foment. I think it’s safe to say that servers suffer the same career malignment and lack of status that chefs did a generation ago. Further, the POS terminal has virtually negated tax-free income—one of the few perks, other than banging Tami in the walk-in—of the job.

In summary, I think that your argument could potentially be made stronger if it split the demographics (price points would be a good starting point) and was geographically more specific. Grabbing for relative standards from huge countries (and even continents) is a zero sum game: Toronto is different than Montreal; the Upper East Side is not the same as the Meat Packing District. Or Omaha for that matter.

The same might hold true for smaller markets. Example: Because I've have eaten in only about a dozen Singaporean restaurants (at various price-points), and have experienced service that ranged from indifferent to brilliant, I certainly don’t feel qualified yet to have—let alone publicly render—an opinion on service standards there.

I only have an impression.

Cheerio,

Jamie

Edited February 7, 2006 by jamiemaw (log)

[Fat Guy]

Jamie, when you figure out a way to say all that in the space I took to say what I said, in such a way as to maintain the interest of a reader, you can give me coaching advice on how to make my arguments stronger. Until then, let's just face the reality that, as generally wacky as she may be, Joanne Kates got it right this time around.

[jamiemaw]

Jamie, when you figure out a way to say all that in the space I took to say what I said, in such a way as to maintain the interest of a reader, you can give me coaching advice on how to make my arguments stronger. Until then, let's just face the reality that, as generally wacky as she may be, Joanne Kates got it right this time around.

←

No worries.

1. "In our experience, in the major urban centres of most western countries we have found that service in fine dining restaurants is now almost universally at a relatively high level. That standard usually maintains whether the service charge is included in the bill or is to be added by way of gratuity. If, however, you feel at all uncomfortable with the level of service, we recommend that you either request a discount on the service charge or diminish your usual, friendly tip. In Canada, however, all bets are off."

2. "In more casual dining establishments, where we typically witness greater extremes of service, we prefer a straightfoward tipping system, which is speedy consideration for service personnel to monitor and manage our dining experience expertly. Or not. In Brooklyn, we've noticed, you're probably better off banging Tami in the walk-in."

3. "If you are Joanne Kates, or, for that matter, any broad in a bad hat or questionable do, all bets are off."

And I mean that. Seriously this time.

Jamie

Edited February 7, 2006 by jamiemaw (log)

[Oyster Guy]

Personally I feel Joanne Kates brings on most of the bad service herself.

She constantly whines about bad attitudes and says nothing of her own atrocious attitude.

While bad service in Toronto establishments might seem prevelant, I have always had rather good service from servers in Toronto.

Then again, I don't have Joanne's lack of diplomacy either.

The woman will harrass servers and is generally an embarassment to have dining in your establishment.

I find even her writing very condescending but no surprise, she is like that in person too.

I have never seen a review of her own place called Arrowhon Pines in Ontario and would be curious to see how she would fare. Has anyone seen one?

I was about to take a cooking job there until I found out who owned it and quit before I started.

Just my two cents.

Keep on shucking

Oyster Guy

[gruyere]

Until then, let's just face the reality that, as generally wacky as she may be, Joanne Kates got it right this time around.

←

She may well be right about certain things, but I find her glee in having her water glass filled on a consistent basis to be both representative of the author and of the American resto scene in general. Sure it's easy for the corporate culture to insist on training standards that require servers to keep water glasses topped up or to offer the crab dip or the next main of equal value to the lesser of the previous two early bird specials is discounted by 10%.

It is much more difficult to employ front of house staff who can discuss ingredients, wines that don't necessarily include the wonderful California product, treat a single diner like he is more than a pain in the ass, understand the difference between an aperitif and a digestif and in general be aware of the fact that for some people the quality of the meal really is more important than the Superbowl. My experience is that outside of very few American establishments this is not the case. And if the population of where you are eating is under say 500,000 you may as well invite Colonel Sanders over for dinner.

Edited February 7, 2006 by gruyere (log)

[philadining]

I've been an occasional, but constant, visitor to Toronto for over thirty years, and I have to say that I've had generally good service in your fine city. I've eaten in restaurants in a few cities around the world, and I haven't noticed that Toronto was any worse than what I've experienced on average, at least in the states.

And in fact I've had more than a few very nice experiences, including at the late, lamented Noodles mentioned upthread. We once retreated there in a panic on a New Year's Eve, after wandering around in temperatures that I'm pretty sure had reached -357 degrees C. (And with the wind, it felt more like -360...) Despite clearly being fully booked later on, the entire staff was extremely gracious, made us feel welcome, and unhurried, even though I'm sure they were eager to get us out of the way. I had a darn fine risotto that night too.

And I remember being rather startled by a waiter at Peter Pan back in the 80s, who was in full biker regalia, complete with a thick leather belt with "nipkicker" spelled out in studs, who turned out to be a very helpful, informed, efficient server, and kept our water glasses full.

Admittedly, for most of my visits I had not been dining at the highest-end places, and perhaps any deficiencies stand out a bit bolder in those contexts, but my experiences, lower-end and limited as they may be, (but still numbering in the hundreds of meals) have been generally positive.

Or maybe I just don't drink that much water...

[Jaymes]

Wine lists are almost all Californian...

I agree that it is utterly inexcusable for US restaurants to serve wines from their own country.

As opposed to restaurants in, say, France....

Edited February 7, 2006 by Jaymes (log)

[GordonCooks]

I've had more meals in Toronto than I can count. I've always had excellent service in high end places and better than expected service in the small cafes and such. I don't have a european experience to compare it to but it's certainly on par with New York, Philly, Boston , Chicago, etc

[gruyere]

Wine lists are almost all Californian...

I agree that it is utterly inexcusable for US restaurants to serve wines from their own country.

As opposed to restaurants in, say, France....

←

It is actually quite commendable to serve wines from your own country. I did not mean to imply otherwise. My point is that outside of most major centers the diner does not have much of a choice to consider say French, Italian or Spanish wines all of which I personally prefer over Californian. Admittedly this is a personal preference and somewhat of a sweeping generalisation.

I have found wait staff in most non-major US cities to be profoundly lacking in the knowledge of wine from anywhere but California.

In general I think there is some confusion in this thread wherein fast service is regarded as good service. For my money I prefer relaxed and knowledgeable service. This style is much more prevalent in Europe and I would suggest that Montreal/Quebec could be considered as adhering to this custom. Corporate in-out turning of tables is not my idea of dining. In Montreal a two hour lunch is 'eat and run' whereas in most of North America a two hour lunch is an impairment to career advancement.

[Jake]

Are you tired of my rant about the bad service in Toronto restaurants?

You are positively clairvoyant, Ms. Kates.

←

Yeah, it's a constant. But she's not wrong on this topic. (I don't really care about whether someone takes my coat or not - but indifferent (not necessarily even inept when attention is (finally) paid - although there is no shortage of that either) service is the rule rather than the exception here. And at all levels of dining, in my experience. That just should not be the case). Exceptions, of course, abound. If this thread grows legs, I hope that examples of exemplary service will come to the fore. And that egulleters and others reading this will check out those establishments. And, now, back to my rant.

George Brown has courses in Culinary Management that deal primarily with front of house. Where are those people going? What are they learning? Are they - if slowly - improving the service in Toronto and area restaurants?

Why don't the restauranteurs here give a shit about decent service? (No doubt many do - at least in the abstract, but service in TO restos remains circumspect at best.) Who, if anyone, will rise up and be our Danny Meyer?

Can I highjack this thread into a broader commentary on service in TO restos (Anna N? Jake?). If not, I think it deserves its own thread.

Cheers,

Geoff Ruby

←

I would think we can continue talking about Toronto in this context, but I also agree that perhaps a separate thread on great service in Toronto would be an excellent idea. I have to say, personally, I find service in Toronto to be lacking much of the time and I'll qualify that by saying I have worked both FOH and BOH over the years. In NYC I became accustomed to good service most of the time, often in Toronto I am surprised by a waiter knowing/having sampled the menu, even in better places, let alone the courtesy and politeness one might become accustomed to in other cities.