Food Pronunciation Guide for the Dim-witted

[therese]

Sorry, ChefDan: nee-swahz.

Portugese is really daunting.  Although I speak French, and have a tiny bit of Spanish, German, Swedish, and Hebrew, as well as a few words of Russian, I find Portuguese pronunciation to be more difficult than any of the above. For that reason alone I'm dying to go to Portugal!

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I've got a good friend and colleague in Lisbon who'd invited me to speak there at a meeting later this year, and I was really looking forward to the food (particularly as she's supposed to be a wizard cook herself and I'd get to stay in her guest house). But the meeting's been moved to Athens, so I guess I'll just have to content myself with Greek food.

Absolutely no clue what's being said in Greek, of course, and even figuring out the names of shops can be daunting. But I manage nonetheles.

[Viola da gamba]

No need to be embarrassed...

Nee-swahz

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Thank you to everyone who responded. I'll stop asking for salad scissors now

[iheartoffal]

I went to the Escoffier Room at the CIA for my birthday back in October. The waitress brought out these tiny lobster "cappuccinos" at the beginning of the meal and declared "This is our signature ah-myoos". We all looked at eachother and smiled.

[therese]

I think somebody mentioned this one upthread, but it's still funny:

I was offered a mescaline salad the other evening. But I turned it down, as I had an early morning the next day.

[therese]

At a cocktail reception a few months ago I was offered a salmon Mussolini by a passing server. I declined it.

[therese]

A waiter's description of a pasta dish made with gemelli had me momentarily stumped (as it's pronounced j(e)-MEHL-lee, and not with a hard "g" at the beginning). I don't usually order pasta in restaurants anyway.

[Pan]

Thanks also for the additional info on pronouncing paella (pah-eh-la).  (At lease I'll be closer now...)[...]

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Not very close. "ll" is a separate letter in Spanish, and I don't know of anywhere where "ll" is pronounced like "l". "ll" = English "y" or "j", not "l". Anyone disagree?

[ludja]

Thanks also for the additional info on pronouncing paella (pah-eh-la).  (At lease I'll be closer now...)[...]

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Not very close. "ll" is a separate letter in Spanish, and I don't know of anywhere where "ll" is pronounced like "l". "ll" = English "y" or "j", not "l". Anyone disagree?

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No---including me. Mea Culpa to all for the mistake in my original post and thanks for quickly catching it Pan. I corrected it above.

Esperanza quote:

One nit-picky correction: there is no PIE in paella. It's pronounced pah-EH-yah, or as someone else pointed out, pah-EH-zyah. The elision between the 'pah' and the 'EH' can make it seem to the non-Spanish-speaker that the PIE exists, but in fact it does not.

Edited February 22, 2005 by ludja (log)

[viva]

Thanks also for the additional info on pronouncing paella (pah-eh-la).  (At lease I'll be closer now...)[...]

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Not very close. "ll" is a separate letter in Spanish, and I don't know of anywhere where "ll" is pronounced like "l". "ll" = English "y" or "j", not "l". Anyone disagree?

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A friend who was raised in Ecuador and speaks Ecuadorian Spanish pronounces the "ll" like "ly", with the "l" being very soft but still distinguishable. She actually corrected me when I pronounced tortilla "tor-tee-ya" and said it should be like 'tor-ti-lya". I do not know if this is unique to Ecuador?

Edited February 22, 2005 by viva (log)

[EdS]

Thanks also for the additional info on pronouncing paella (pah-eh-la).  (At lease I'll be closer now...)[...]

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Not very close. "ll" is a separate letter in Spanish, and I don't know of anywhere where "ll" is pronounced like "l". "ll" = English "y" or "j", not "l". Anyone disagree?

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I do. I posted this recently...

The confusion is because there is more than one proper pronunciation of the double "l" in Spanish. How one pronounces the double "l" is dependent on where one has learned to speak the language. Making a broad generalization, I'd say the following is true.

Most of Latin America (Mexico, Peru, etc.): y as in "yes"

River Plate countries (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay): zh as in "vision"

Spain: ly as in "million" or y as in "yes"

I've traveled around Latin America but not to Spain so my experience with people from the latter is limited. I know I've heard that "ly" sound faintly from people from Spain but I'm not sure if it's consistent. Maybe I was hearing things. biggrin.gif

So, I'd expect to hear variations of the word paella with the stress on the second to last syllable:

Pah-E-ya

Pah-E-zha

Pah-E-lya

I've found a Spanish (Spain) pronunciation guide that supports my observation of how some speakers from Spain pronounce the double "l".

[therese]

I've found a Spanish (Spain) pronunciation guide that supports my observation of how some speakers from Spain pronounce the double "l".

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Great site that illustrate the physical modifications required to accurately generate certain sounds in other languages.

[Gary]

Je veux retourner aux sujets culinaire, allons-y!

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Complètement d'accord !...

Back to food...

Can someone help me with the mardi gras treat of choice in my area: paczki

First, let me say I had NEVER heard of this food item until I moved here 5 years ago. My introduction to it was mardi gras week 2000 when my husband announced that "poonshkis" would be available soon. "Poonshkis ?"

Ok, now I know WHAT they are, but is that the correct pronunciation?

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Poonshki is preferred

Punch-ki is used less frequently but they still know what you want.

I've come to the understanding that Polish spelling and pronunciation have nothing to do with each other. Oh well. Give me another jelly filled powdered donut... er... paczki. Yummy way to tuck in 1000 calories and 85 fat grams in a hurry.

[Pan]

Thanks also for the additional info on pronouncing paella (pah-eh-la).  (At lease I'll be closer now...)[...]

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Not very close. "ll" is a separate letter in Spanish, and I don't know of anywhere where "ll" is pronounced like "l". "ll" = English "y" or "j", not "l". Anyone disagree?

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I do. I posted this recently...

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Point taken, but "ll" never = "l" in Spanish, correct?

[EdS]

Point taken, but "ll" never = "l" in Spanish, correct?

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I've never noticed a Spanish speaker who used a strong "l" sound for a double "ll". The "ly" I describe above is like a y sound but with a very slight l sound in front of it. Subtle. Once again, I haven't been to Spain. Rather, I've spoken to people from Spain. There could be some regional variation of which I am unaware.

[EdS]

The University of Lausanne has an online Introduction to Phonetics which not only describes the International Phonetic Alphabet as used in many dictionaries but also has downloadable examples of each sound. Every language uses a subset of the sounds described by the IPA. Very often there is not a one-to-one match between a sound in one language and that in another. The French nasal sounds do not exist in English, for example. Thus, it can be very difficult or often impossible to describe a sound in one language using sounds from another.

To better answer the question about how Spanish "ll" is pronounced without using possibly poor English approximations, I give you the following links.

Palatal non-fricative lateral: Parts of Spain and parts of Latin America

Voiced palatal fricative (hisser): Parts of Latin America and rapidly becoming more widely accepted in Spain

Voiced alveolar fricative (husher): Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, parts of Spain (considered somewhat vulgar in Spain)

I didn't want to link to the actual sound files so you'll need to scroll on each page to find each example.

I've updated the information above based on information in my Collins English-Spanish dictionary and The Romance Languages by Martin Harris and Nigel Vincent.

Edited February 22, 2005 by esvoboda (log)

[therese]

The University of Lausanne has an online Introduction to Phonetics which not only describes the International Phonetic Alphabet as used in many dictionaries but also has downloadable examples of each sound. Every language uses a subset of the sounds described by the IPA. Very often there is not a one-to-one match between a sound in one language and that in another. The French nasal sounds do not exist in English, for example. Thus, it can be very difficult or often impossible to describe a sound in one language using sounds from another.

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Another very cool site, esvoboda. The diagrams are helpful, as are the sounds (still difficult to distinguish unless ones particular language uses that particular sound).

Thanks for the link.

[slbunge]

Je veux retourner aux sujets culinaire, allons-y!

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Can someone help me with the mardi gras treat of choice in my area: paczki

First, let me say I had NEVER heard of this food item until I moved here 5 years ago. My introduction to it was mardi gras week 2000 when my husband announced that "poonshkis" would be available soon. "Poonshkis ?"

Ok, now I know WHAT they are, but is that the correct pronunciation?

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Poonshki is preferred

Punch-ki is used less frequently but they still know what you want.

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I would say that the way I have always heard it from Polish speakers in the Chicago area is similar to the 'punch-key' although the ch sound is somewhere between the 'ch' of church and the ch of Chicago. Also, the u sound in punch is a bit rounded, almost to the 'ou' sound.

Also, keep in mind that it Paczki is actually the plural. Paczek would be the singular form of the delicious powdered donut. And it would be pronounced 'punch-ek' with the 'ch' being like in church this time and the u sound again being a bit rounded.

Of course, all bets are off if all of these people I know ae speaking some sort of displaced-Polish of the midwestern settler.

[Weissman]

I had a Culinary Institute instructor for skills you used to say "shalot" like shalom (replace the m with a t) instead of shallot. Also "bahsil" instead of basil.

Tomahto instead of tomato!

Potahto instead of potato!

[Pan]

[...]Tomahto instead of tomato!

Potahto instead of potato!

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Let's call the whole thing off...

[Grub]

The TV comedy-commentary show "The Soup" makes fun of various TV shows, and did a little bit on Iron Chef -- obviously, it was a non-foodie "outsiders" look at things, taken out of context, but this little bit was very funny. They basically accused the show of coming up with bad Asian stereotypes, and showed a few examples of it, and finished by playing the Iron Chef commentary on a chicken dish that used a sauce made of miso and honey...

Miso honey...

Oh dear. I saw that show, and never batted an eye.

[The Hersch]

Also "bahsil" instead of basil.     

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Which brings me to one of my pet food-pronunciation peeves. Twenty-five or thirty years ago, virtually every English speaker pronounced the name of that herb BAZZEL, which is how it should be pronounced. If you look in any older American dictionary (like Webster's Second) or any modern British dictionary (if I'm not mistaken--I'm going by the OED 2nd edition), this is the only pronunciation you'll find (represented in their proprietary notational systems). Somewhere along the line, though, Americans got it into their minds to pronounce it BAYZEL, which is a silliness that drives me to distraction. Would they say Bayzel Rathbone, or Bayzel Faulty? The herbal name and the male proper name are exactly the same word, and should be pronounced BAZZEL. Please join my campaign to restore this word.

(I never heard anyone pronounce it BAHZEL, though.)

[FoodMan]

ok, I have not read all 10 pages so hopefully no one mentioned this one, but the Spanish word "pinxtos" is pronounced pinztos, right?

Elie

[Smithy]

Also "bahsil" instead of basil.     

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Which brings me to one of my pet food-pronunciation peeves. Twenty-five or thirty years ago, virtually every English speaker pronounced the name of that herb BAZZEL, which is how it should be pronounced. If you look in any older American dictionary (like Webster's Second) or any modern British dictionary (if I'm not mistaken--I'm going by the OED 2nd edition), this is the only pronunciation you'll find (represented in their proprietary notational systems). Somewhere along the line, though, Americans got it into their minds to pronounce it BAYZEL, which is a silliness that drives me to distraction. Would they say Bayzel Rathbone, or Bayzel Faulty? The herbal name and the male proper name are exactly the same word, and should be pronounced BAZZEL. Please join my campaign to restore this word.

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Well actually, I always pronounced the male actor's name the way I pronounce the herb, until I heard an English person discuss him!

My Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, which is not new at all (printed 1979) lists 4 pronunciations of the word 'basil', in this order: "BAZel", "BAYSel", "BASel" and "BAYZel". I'm surpised, because I've always only heard the 4th pronunciation when discussing the herb and thought it was the preferred American pronunciation. At any rate, this is not new. Sorry, not going to join you on this one.

Sha-lot, however, and marinahd really stick in my craw. A favorite radio food host, whom I otherwise adore, uses those pronunciations. Oh, dear.

[jodicalhoun]

I always hear in my head the Mason Williams song:

O them hor doovers,

Ain't they neat?

Little piece a cheese

And a little piece a meat

[Really Nice!]

Admit it.  You're the one at the table who is expected to know everything about food, and when one of your friends asks about something on the menu, you avoid mentioning that item's name, because you have no damn clue how to pronounce it.

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Two books will answer this:

Haute, as in Oat and The Food Lover's Companion.