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Mayhaw Man

Mayhaw Man gets Mad

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O.K.-Two weeks ago I was ready for my families big Fishing Adventure in Ontario and a couple of days in Winnipeg when I came home to water all over the tile floor of my kitchen. It would seem that my dishwasher blew a hose and then blew water all over my kitchen. Unfortunately the only way to get the dishwasher out was to remove some of the flooring. No big deal, the boys and my wife were out of town and I figured I could get it out and repaired in one day.

Well, it turned out that there must have been a slow leak and that the subflooring was soaked. I was gonna have to tear out all of the tile. Well, that's ok, we had been talking about doing it for a while.

Somehow, eight hours later, without asking anyone or thinking it through beyond the end of the tear out, I had removed two walls and torn out the laundry room. Leaving myself with no kitchen, no cabinets worth saving and nowhere to cook.

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So there you go. My wife, well she's kind of a trooper after twenty years of living with me, took it pretty well and said that it was about time. My kids, they don't care much as long as they get fed. So here we go.

As you can see from the photos the place is a mess. But the good news is that it is a very big mess (13x30 rectangle plus the area where you can see the pots hanging and the floor still down-that is a very large island with a pot sink in it and it now houses a large griddle, a hot plate, a rice cooker, and a crock pot. I also have a nice bullet smoker, a cool brick pit, and a just purchased stainless steel BBQ Pit of undetermined brand from Sams which has two burners on the side of it as well-so we won't starve)

The long boards that you see there (with the yellow paint on them are cypress and perfect and straight and you couldn't buy them for love or money these days) came from the interior of my plaster walls (the ones I hammered out) and they will be planed and become cabinet fronts. We have measured (or the cabinet guy did) and there is plenty for what I want to do. We are having new cabinets built, I am replacing the ice box (which has needed to be replaced for about five years :wacko: ) and adding an ice machine. The laundry room will be moved (actually that should be complete by Monday afternoon) and the kitchen will then be huge. There will be a sitting area by the fireplace that you see there and pretty much the rest will be cabinets (primarily drawers-big ones) in the base cabinets and open, glass fronted ones on top. All of this will be farmhouse style (for lack of a better term-I live in the country, but we don't decorate that way and in fact artwork display is a major consideration-my wife is an artist and a dealer and we have been collecting since long before we could afford it) cabinetry as that is what should be here given the age of this place (100 yrs) and the way that it is designed.

It will all be wired for sound and there will be a cool built in desk for a computer and stuff (replacing the desk that you see the computer on now). As I said, I have done all of the tearout myself and I will do most of the electrical, plumbing, and rough in. Someone else is making and installing the cabinets. I will put down the floor (8 inch heart pine tongue in groove, just like the rest of the house) and finish out all of the walls.

Here are my questions for today-

My wife seems to think that a refrigerator freezer with a bottom, pull out freezer is the way to go. Is this the case? Yes or no and why not.

I need a new ice machine. Ice is key to a good life here and we go through plenty of it. Any recomendations? My old whirlpool was prone to conking out, so I need some fresh ideas.

I am keeping my OKeefe and Merrit Stove because I love it, but am thinking about putting in an electric oven. Convection or no? Why? Any suggestions?

Incidentally-don't bother with telling me about commercial grade appliances. I'm not falling for that and am not interested. Top quality home appliances are where I am looking and any advice would be most welcome.

I will update the photos as we go along for those of you that are interested.

And no, this is not the first time I have done something like this. I once hooked a chain to my Ford F350 4WD and hooked the other end to the back support post in my old garage/barn/tool shed. It looked worse than the kitchen, but it was really fun and the neighborhood boys were VERY impressed (the adult neighbors seemed less so :laugh: )

So that's what I did today. If I'm lucky the whole thing will be finished by the time it starts cooling off (mid October is what I am shooting for. Once I get the floor down (this week) I can kind of start living in it again, so it won't be that bad.


Brooks Hamaker, aka "Mayhaw Man"

There's a train everyday, leaving either way...

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I have an older U-line icemaker that has been working perfectly for 8 years.

ice makers


"There are, it has been said, two types of people in the world. There are those who say: this glass is half full. And then there are those who say: this glass is half empty. The world belongs, however, to those who can look at the glass and say: What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!" Terry Pratchett

 

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Wow.

Nothing of substance to add other than: Cool! A new kitchen on the way! :smile:

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Mayhaw, can't give any advice, there are few less qualified to give it than myself, but here's a cheer of support! Go for it brother! Amen!!

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If you are getting a separate ice maker, then I agree with your wife that a bottom drawer freezer is the way to go. It is more economical both price-wise and energy efficiency-wise (heat rises, so coldest part on the bottom makes the most sense). Like I said, as long as you don't want it for ice or water dispensing. Everything in the fridge is at a great height and you have nice wide shelves for when you need to get in party platters or what have you. Get the pull out drawer for the bottom, rather than the kind where there's a cabinet like door, and then bins to pull out. It's great for everything except for having to pull out a huge frozen turkey from the depths. :wink:

I so wanted a separate stove top and wall oven because I wanted a gas stove top and an electric oven. As you may or may not know, a by-product of natural gas being heated is H2O. Not good for when you want stuff to get crisp in the oven. The huge gas oven takes a while to heat and retains heat for a LONG time. I have found myself using our small Cusinart convection toaster oven with far greater frequency than our Garland range oven. So, while I don't know anything about your current range, if it has a big gas oven, and you have room for an additional electric oven, I don't think you'll regret having it, especially with convection.

Yeah, wood floors! I'm not going to let anyone talk me out of wood floors in the kitchen, next time I have to do a kitchen. I have decided I hate tile. Tile sucks.

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Heh....this reminds me of the Kevin Bacon movie, "A Stir of Echoes" - wherein he totally destroys the backyard and basement by digging while his wife and son are away.

Hey, it's on-topic....I said "bacon"!


Marsha Lynch aka "zilla369"

Has anyone ever actually seen a bandit making out?

Uh-huh: just as I thought. Stereotyping.

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Ye cats, man! You sure do know to come back from a vacation! :laugh:

I live almost as far up into the frozen north as you recently vacated, so I don't know about separate ice makers; Rachel's points about the bottom freezer if you have a separate ice maker all make sense. Certainly it makes physical sense to put the freezer underneath everything else. However, my friends who invested in a bottom drawer freezer were disappointed with it. It was a big pull-out bin with multiple compartments (as Rachel recommends), but they were still forever bending down and trying to unearth the wanted thing from the very bottom of its compartment. As I watch dear friends age (but not me! :raz: ) I'm finding that the last thing they want to do is have to squat down to a bottom drawer, not even to get something like the frozen chicken for tonight's dinner.

Good luck, have fun, and hang onto your sense of humor! I love the image of the neighborhood boys standing around goggle-eyed at your last renovation project.

Nancy


Nancy Smith, aka "Smithy"
HosteG Forumsnsmith@egstaff.org

"Every day should be filled with something delicious, because life is too short not to spoil yourself. " -- Ling (with permission)

"There comes a time in every project when you have to shoot the engineer and start production." -- author unknown

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Rachel,

It is definitely going to be electric, whether convection or not. I hate electric ranges, but electric is the way to go with the oven (especially given the local price of gas-you would think since it came from here it would be cheap bt your cf price in NJ was probably lower than ours this winter). Baking is soooo nice in one that has cool timers and programability. I can't wait. I love my old OK and M, but it is not exactly state of the art baking in that thing.

I have a seperate freezer and so tons of freezer space is not an issue. I don't really care much about water and ice in the door since my intention is to get a new ice maker (app 15 lbs per day-big I know, but for 8 months a year we use that much). I would like to get one that makes cubes and not "wet ice", but really don't have very strong feelings either way.

My house has wood floors in every inch of it and for some reason we decided to tile the kitchen when we redid it twelve years ago. I must have been hammered when I thought that idea up. I have hated that tile since the day I put it down. This place is a mess, but I am glad that I am not looking at that tile anymore.


Brooks Hamaker, aka "Mayhaw Man"

There's a train everyday, leaving either way...

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On the freezer: I prefer a bottom-loader myself, mostly because I grew up with one and it just seems "right" to me. Since you're going to be installing an ice machine, ice storage is not a consideration. The big drawback, though, is that stuff tends to sink to the bottom, only to be forgotten permanently. You eventually find the meat loaf labeled "1/4/1999" but it's waay too late. Do you have a deep freezer for that kind of stuff? If so, a bottom freezer is great for the "frequently accessed frozen stuff".

On the oven: Normally I shy away from digital type controls. My mother-in-law's oven doesn't work at all due to the flat-panel digital controls completely dying. However, hers is an old model and may have been a second to begin with. But man lemme tell you, every time I go to my mom's house, she has nice double ovens with digital timers, and there's nothing so nice as being able to set something to "195 degrees for four hours, thirty five minutes". So I would definitely recommend something that's all programmable and stuff.


Don Moore

Nashville, TN

Peace on Earth

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Rachel is right about the smaller "counter-top" ovens.

I have the Cadco 1/2 sheet pan size convection oven that is really terrific in this hot weather. (102 today (Saturday), supposed to be 107 Sunday.

My big oven does generate a lot of heat and steam, if I have the steamer on for baking bread. I rarely use it in hot weather.

I also have a combination convection/microwave made by Sharp, it is quite large, the enamel turntable is 15 1/4 inches in diameter. The combination roasting really speeds up roasting meats and poultry and the results are excellent.

I have another Sharp, just microwave, also the largest made, and I use both to make jams and preserves. Actually cook them most of the way in the microwave and finish on the stovetop. I simply can no longer stand for hours over a cooktop, stirring jam. This way I also do not have to worry about scorching.

I do prefer a gas cooktop - however I do have a countertop induction "range" that is very handy for use when I need to cook something over heat but do not want to have to stay in the room for the entire time. I have a total of 9 gas burners but certainly wouldn't go off to the store and leave something cooking over a gas burner.

The induction range has a timer which really helps when I am out in the garden and lose track of time. It is also handy to take along when I am going to be cooking at someone's home, and they do not have enough burners.

They have come down in price considerably since I purchased mine.

induction range


"There are, it has been said, two types of people in the world. There are those who say: this glass is half full. And then there are those who say: this glass is half empty. The world belongs, however, to those who can look at the glass and say: What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!" Terry Pratchett

 

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...

I have a seperate freezer and so tons of freezer space is not an issue. I don't really care much about water and ice in the door since my intention is to get a new ice maker (app 15 lbs per day-big I know, but for 8 months a year we use that much). I would like to get one that makes cubes and not "wet ice", but really don't have very strong feelings either way. ..

Mayhaw Man,

If you have a separate freezer and are not interested in an ice-dispenser on the 'fridge, have you considered going all 'fridge? This is the route my daughter took and it works well for her. Refrigerators without any freezing compartment are not that common and therefore the choice of models is limited but I would definitely go that route myself if I had to replace my unit.


Anna Nielsen aka "Anna N"

...I just let people know about something I made for supper that they might enjoy, too. That's all it is. (Nigel Slater)

"Cooking is about doing the best with what you have . . . and succeeding." John Thorne

Our 2012 (Kerry Beal and me) Blog

My 2004 eG Blog

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I have a freezer on the bottom-type fridge and quite like it. Pull out wire mesh trays. Some tendency for things to get lost on the bottom, but not as bad as things getting lost in the back of my previous top freezer model. I also have a separate chest freezer, so really big stuff goes there.

The real advantage to having the freezer on the botton is that the fridge is then at the perfect height, and I use my fridge much more frequently than my freezer. Sure, it's less than optimum having to bend over to reach things in the freezer, but it's really bad having to bend over to retrieve things from the vegetable crisper.

We remodeled our kitchen this year, and one of the things I love the most is our farmer-style, apron front sink. No divider, just one big basin. I can wash anything in it.

A quiet dishwasher is worth the money. Mine is a Bosch, and I can start it in the middle of a casual dinner party and nobody even notices, even though they're seated less than six feet away.


Can you pee in the ocean?

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Brooks, it sounds as though your Canadian trip was inspirational and galvanizing. You should do it more often. :cool:


Arthur Johnson, aka "fresco"

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I have a seperate freezer and so tons of freezer space is not an issue.

You know it is possible to get a fridge only refridgerator, if the extra freezer is nearby, like in the laundry room, it may be the way to go.

Note: Anna and I must have great minds, since we think alike. :wink:


Edited by Rachel Perlow (log)

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As beans said, "Wow."


"I've caught you Richardson, stuffing spit-backs in your vile maw. 'Let tomorrow's omelets go empty,' is that your fucking attitude?" -E. B. Farnum

"Behold, I teach you the ubermunch. The ubermunch is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: the ubermunch shall be the meaning of the earth!" -Fritzy N.

"It's okay to like celery more than yogurt, but it's not okay to think that batter is yogurt."

Serving fine and fresh gratuitous comments since Oct 5 2001, 09:53 PM

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If you are getting a separate ice maker, then I agree with your wife that a bottom drawer freezer is the way to go. It is more economical both price-wise and energy efficiency-wise (heat rises, so coldest part on the bottom makes the most sense).

I respectfully disagree with this, as if you add your cold at the bottom and expect it to simply percolate up, you will find that you have the bottom much colder than you want, if you are maintaining temperature at the top. Conversely, if you are maintaining temperature at the bottom with simple percolation, your top will be too warm. Air is a wonderful insulator and doesn't move much in a refrigerator without help.

But, I think the design eggheads took care of that with some well-placed electronics and fans. /disagreement.

I tend to like the design of side-by-side freezer and refrigerators. But, I am a bachelor with no roommates, so my trips to the refrigerator and freezer are for smaller amounts than a family, and more prone to forgetting or eating more convenient types of things. I also tend to think that if you are having a creaky-knee day asking the short people who live upstairs to fish something out of the bottom freezer will have a negative impact on the scheme of freezer item placement. Read: stuff may get lost quicker. Caveat: I don't have kids.

However, congratulations on your decision. I am jealous of your plans--and current kitchen. I wish you the best of luck!


I always attempt to have the ratio of my intelligence to weight ratio be greater than one. But, I am from the midwest. I am sure you can now understand my life's conundrum.

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We have a side by side, mainly for the ice thru the door. The estimated cost to run it for a year is $39! These things are so much more efficient than they were just a few years ago. Who cares if one is more effiecient than another, how much could it be?

The joke is that Sears recommends changing the water filter twice a year.........the filters cost $39.

If we had a separate ice machine we would have gone top freezer.

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Checked Consumer Reports. Interestingly, both the top and bottom mounted refrigerators are pretty close in energy efficiency. Both are better than side-by-side models. They recommend the 33-inch-wide LG brand model #LRDC22731, with its fancy tilt-down bottom-freezer drawer front, ice maker and high energy efficiency rating. However, is costs $1300 and you don't need the ice maker. For around $500 less, you could get the basic Amana or Samsung models,* which actually have slightly more usable space, but with the wide swinging bottom door.

*I'd recommend Sears for online fridge shopping/comparison, they have more brands than CR listed, and far less $ on the basic appliances. Unfortunately, you can't select no ice maker or bottom door type as search options on their website.

Kenmore (Sears brand) does have a freezerless fridge, for $400. Totally basic, but I just looked up how expensive ice makers are ($850 minimum for a Kenmore). Are you sure you don't want a fridge that makes ice? That LG model might be a good compromise. (BTW - Sears doesn't seem to carry LG, but Best Buy does, but I can't find that model on their website, perhaps they could order it? Here's LG's website. The "French doors" look cool.) Whirlpool also makes a freezerless fridge, model #EL7ATRRMQ, which has more bells & whistles (bins & such), and is therefore more expensive ($720) than the Kenmore. Interestingly, they list it with the side-by-side models, because the idea is to pair it up with an all-freezer matching appliance.

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Here's one really really good reason for folks who don't live near a good bakery not to have a side-by-side: you can't freeze baguettes in them. Unless, of course, you cut them in half, which sort of defeats the purpose, IYAM.

LG makes a fridge with a double-door full-width top that looks pretty awesome.

You go, Brooks. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to hitch my kitchen up to a big old 4x4 and tear that fucker out.


Edited by GG Mora (log)

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Brooks, it sounds as though your Canadian trip was inspirational and galvanizing. You should do it more often. :cool:

Hell, I would end up tearing down my whole house. I won't be able to go on a trip for another three or four years (actually that is not true, we are going camping in Baja over Thanksgiving, Lord knows what I will destroy before that trip :wacko: )


Brooks Hamaker, aka "Mayhaw Man"

There's a train everyday, leaving either way...

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This morning's thought is along the lines of Rachel's suggestion.

I do, in fact, have a seperate freezer, but it is a chest type (and I love it-I can always put it in the garage-I'm not getting rid of it-I get halves of beef a couple of times a year from a guy I kind of coop with-I buy the calves at auction and he takes care of raising them and then I go supervise the butchering-FFA membership pays off for some of us rural types-we all took meat cutting in high school).

I have tons of room now and am thinking about a seperate freezer and refrigerator. My wife thinks (design element interferes with engineering/practicality again-ever seen that ad where the engineer is married to the supermodel? That is much like my real life situation :wacko: ) that would be a good idea if we could find a set that accepts cabinet fronts. I agree that it would be appealing, but so far I have not found any of that type that are seperates.

Incidentally, I had a 21 foot cypress bar top fall into my hands this morning (most of my friends are crazed collectors of junk and I have a friend that is a set dresser in the movie industry-he finds GREAT stuff all of the time). It is probably pre prohibition and really cool, so that will now have to be incorporated into the countertops. I really need to post a drawing so that I can show you what the hell I am thinking about. It actually makes pretty good sense.

The island that you see at the end of the photo is really large and already has a deep sink with a disposal and I (up to now) have been doing most of my chopping chores and all of my baking stuff on it (it has a huge piece of corian on it and is great for dough, etc-I may eventually change the top, but not now). I am thinking of putting a 2 burner set of eyes in it for parties (keeping gumbo warm, etc). What if I just put a large electric griddle instead of the burner eyes? Does anybody make those things to be built in as stand alone units?

Try to imagine how much fun it is to have all of these knowledgable people at my fingertips. If I ever finish you are all invited over for a big hoe down. :laugh:


Brooks Hamaker, aka "Mayhaw Man"

There's a train everyday, leaving either way...

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I think its a nice touch that the computer in the picture is on the Daily Gullet. Good work. And good luck.


Bill Russell

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I think its a nice touch that the computer in the picture is on the Daily Gullet. Good work. And good luck.

It's my homepage. Isn't it everybody's?


Brooks Hamaker, aka "Mayhaw Man"

There's a train everyday, leaving either way...

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I have tons of room now and am thinking about a seperate freezer and refrigerator. My wife thinks ... that would be a good idea if we could find a set that accepts cabinet fronts. I agree that it would be appealing, but so far I have not found any of that type that are seperates.

They exist, but now we're starting to get into the multiple-thousand dollar range, like SubZero (~$8000) or GE Monogram (~$7000). If you can live with white ($1350) or stainless steel ($2000) fronts, then you may want to go with the Whirlpool set (fridge linked above, here's the freezer).

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I think its a nice touch that the computer in the picture is on the Daily Gullet.  Good work.  And good luck.

It's my homepage. Isn't it everybody's?

Actually, I go straight to the forum page, then backtrack to check the Daily Gullet.

For the oven, you might consider a model that has convection baking as an option. Our store kitchen used to have two Dacor ovens, one of which had that option, and it was great -- I loved the convection, but if I was used to baking something without convection, I could just use the regular setting and not have to mess around with recalculating cooking times.

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      C. Settings & Programming

      The KY-MK3500 features both power and temperature settings. For “regular” induction, there are 20 power settings, which range from 50 watts to 3500 watts. For non-ferromagnetic pans, there are 18 power settings, which range from 60 watts to 2400 watts. The display shows these settings in numerals 1-20 and 1-18 respectively. When the power is toggled on, the unit defaults to Setting 14 in both frequencies.

      The temperature settings are the same in both modes, with 22 selectable temperatures from 285F (140C) to 500F (260C). Other than for the very lowest temperature setting, each setting increase results in a 10F temperature increase. Usefully, the display shows the set temperature, not 1-22; and until the set temperature is reached, the display indicates “Preheat”. The unit beeps when it reaches the set temperature. The Panasonic measures pan temperature using an IR sensor beneath the glass; this sensor sits about 1 inch outside the centerpoint of the painted positioning markings, yet inside of the induction coil.

      The timer operation is fast and intuitive. Once the power or temperature is set and operating, the operator merely keys the timer’s dedicated up/down buttons, and the timer display area activates. Timer settings are in any 30-second interval between 30 seconds and 9 ½ hours, and the display will show remaining time. The beeps at the end of cooking are loud.
       
      There are nine available memory programs, which can be set for either power or temperature, along with time. Programming entails pressing and holding the Program mode button, selecting the program (1-9), then picking and setting the power or temperature, then setting the timer, and finally pressing and holding the Program button again. After that, to use any of the entered programs, you simply press the Program button, select which program, and the unit will run that program within 3 seconds.
       
      In addition to Heat-Time programmability, the KY-MK3500 also provides the ability to vary 9 of the unit’s default settings: (1) Decreasing the power level granularity from 20 to 10; (2) Changing the temperature display to Celsius; (3) Enabling a long cook time shutoff safety feature; (4) Enabling the main power auto shutoff feature; (5) Disabling the glowing circle; (6) Lowering or disabling the auditory beep signals’ volume; (7) Customizing the timer finish beep; (8) Customizing the Preheat notification beep; and (9) Customizing the interval for filter cleanings.
       
      D. Maintenance
       
      The KY-MK3500 has a plastic air intake filter which can be removed and cleaned. This is not dishwashable. This filter is merely a plastic grate with ¼” square holes, so it is questionable what exactly —besides greasy dust bunnies—will be filtered. Panasonic recommends the filter be cleaned once a week. Besides that, the Ceran surface and stainless housing clean just like other appliances.
       
      IV. Acceptable Cookware
       
      Panasonic claims the unit will accept cast iron, enameled iron, stainless steel, copper, and aluminum with two provisos. First, very thin aluminum and copper may “move” on the appliance. And second, thin aluminum pans may “deform”. Panasonic does not address carbon steel pans, but I verified that they do indeed work. They also warn of the obvious fact that glass and ceramics will not work.
       
      Buyers are also warned against using cookware of specific cookware bottom shapes: round, footed, thin, and domed. Trying to use these, Panasonic warns, may disable safety features and reduce or eliminate pan heating.
       
      As far as minimum pan diameter goes, Panasonic claims the KY-MK3500 needs 5” diameter in ferromagnetic pans, and 6” in copper or aluminum ones. My own tests have shown that in fact the unit will function with a cast iron fondue pot, the base of which is only 4 1/8” in diameter, and also works with a copper saucepan, the base of which is almost exactly 5” in diameter. Obviously, the field will be most active at the very edges of such small pans, but they do function.
       
      V. Evaluation in Use

      I can say that not only does the Panasonic KY-MK3500 “work” with copper and aluminum pans, but that it works very well with them. Thermally, thick gauge conductive material pans perform in close emulation of the same pans on gas, even though there are no combustion gasses flowing up and around the pan. I found this startling.
       
      Nevertheless, a searching comparison between copper and ferromagnetic pans on this unit isn’t as straightforward as one might expect. The Panasonic is capable of dumping a full 3500 watts into ferromagnetic pans, but is limited to 2400 watts for aluminum and copper. Despite copper’s and aluminum’s superiorities in conductivity, that extra 1100 watts is going to win every speed-boil race.
       
      I initially thought I could handicap such a race simply by using the temperature setting and comparing the times required to achieve a “preheat” in a pans of cold water. Alas, no—the Panasonic’s IR function signified the copper pan was preheated to 350F before the water even reached 70F! Obviously, the entire thermal system of cold food in a cold pan needs to come to equilibrium before the Panasonic’s temperature readout becomes meaningful.

      A. Temperature Settings
       
      Unfortunately, with every pan I tried, the temperature settings were wildly inaccurate for measuring the temperature of the food. I heated 2 liters of peanut oil in a variety of pots, disk-base, enameled cast iron enameled steel, and copper. I thought it might be useful to see how close to 350F and 375F the settings were for deep frying. The oil in a Le Creuset 5.5Q Dutch oven set to 350F never made it past 285F, and it took 40:00 to get there. I kept bumping up the setting until I found that the setting for 420F will hold the oil at 346F. A disk-based pot didn’t hit 365F until the temperature setting was boosted to 400F. The only pan which came remotely close to being true to the settings was a 2mm silvered copper oven, which heated its oil to 327F when the Panasonic was set for 350F, and 380F when set for 410F.
       
      The temperature function was a lot closer to true when simply preheating an empty pan. With a setting of 350F, all the shiny stainless pans heated to just a few degrees higher (about 353-357F) and held there. This is useful for judging the Leidenfrost Point (which is the heat at which you can oil your SS and have it cook relatively nonstick) and potentially for “seasoning” carbon steel, SS and aluminum, but not much else, since it doesn’t translate to actual food temperature. There’s also the issue of the temperature settings *starting* at 285F, so holding a lower temperature for, e.g., tempering chocolate or a sous vide bath, or even a simmer would be by-guess-by-golly just like any other hob—your only resort is lots of experience with lower *power* settings.
       
      With heat-tarnished copper, a 350F setting resulted in a wide swinging between 353F and 365F, which I attribute to the copper shedding heat far faster than the other constructions, once the circuit stops the power at temperature. Then, when the circuit cycles the power back on, the copper is so responsive that it quickly overshoots the setting. Aluminum, on the other hand, *undershot*, the 350F setting, registering a cycle of 332-340F.

      I conclude that the IR sensor is set for some particular emissivity, probably for that of stainless steel. If true, the Panasonic, even though it automatically switches frequencies, does not compensate for the different emissivities of copper and aluminum. And even if Panasonic added dedicated aluminum and copper IR sensors, there is enough difference between dirty and polished that the added cost would be wasted. Bottom line here: the temperature setting mode is of extremely low utility, and should not be trusted.
       
      B. Power Mode – Pan Material Comparisons
       
      Given the differences in power setting granularity and maximum power between the two frequencies, it is difficult to assess what X watts into the pot means in, say, a copper-versus-clad or –disk showdown. What is clear, however, is that Setting X under disk and clad seems “hotter” than the same setting under copper and aluminum.

      I will need to precisely calibrate the Panasonic for wattage anyway for the hyperconductivity project, so I will obtain a higher-powered watt meter to determine the wattage of every power setting for both frequencies. Until then, however, the only way I can fairly handicap a race is to apply a reduction figure to the ferromagnetic setting (2400W being 69% of 3500W). Given that we know the wattage at the maximum settings, we can infer that Setting 14 (actually 13.8) on the 20-step ferromagnetic range iis approximately the same heat output as the maximum setting (18) for copper/aluminum.

      The boil times for 4 liters of 50F water in 10” diameter pots shocked me. The 10” x 3mm tinned copper pot’s water reached 211F in 36:41. Not an especially fast time at 2400 watts. The 10” disk-based pressure cooker bottom? Well, it didn’t make it—it took an hour to get to 208F and then hung there. So that left me wondering if the Panasonic engineers simply decided that 2400 watts was enough for copper and aluminum. I have a theory why the copper pot boiled and the SS one didn’t under the same power, but getting into that’s for another time.

      C. Evenness Comparisons
       
      The wires which generate the induction field are wound in a circular pattern; when energized, they create a torus-shaped magnetic field. The wound coil is constructed with an empty hole at its center. As matters of physics, the magnetic field’s intensity drops off extremely fast as a function of the distance from the coil; a few millimeters above the Ceran, the field is so weak no meaningful heat will be generated. This means that most induction cooktops heat *only* the very bottom of pans, and in a distinct 2-dimensional “doughnut” shape.

      All of the above can result in a pan having a cooler central spot, a hotter ring directly over the coil, and a cooler periphery outside the coil. It is left to the cookware to try to even out these thermal discontinuities when cooking. Some materials and pan constructions are better at this than others: the successful constructions utilize more highly-conductive metals such as aluminum and copper, but unless the material is very thick, there can be a ring-shaped hotspot that can scorch food.
      Until the Panasonic arrived to market, hotspot comparisons between ferromagnetic and aluminum/copper pans depended largely on comparing induction’s flat, more discrete heat ring with gas’s more diffuse, 3-dimensional one. Dodgeball-style debate ensued, with few clear conclusions. But now, for the first time, equally-powered flat heat rings in two different frequencies allow us to directly compare evenness in ferromagnetic and aluminum/copper cookware.

      The simplest and easiest way to assess cookware evenness is the “scorchprint”, which does not require infrared or other advanced thermal imaging equipment. I’ve posted on how to conduct scorchprinting elsewhere, but basically a pan is evenly dusted with flour; heat is applied to the pan bottom. As the flour is toasted, any hotspots visually emerge, giving the viewer a useful general idea of evenness.
       
      I will later post the photos of scorchprints I made of 4 different pans run using the Panasonic KY-MK3500: (1) a Demeyere 28cm Proline 5* clad frypan; (2) a Fissler Original Profi disk-base 28cm frypan; a 6mm aluminum omelet pan; and (4) a 32cm x 3.2mm Dehillerin sauté. To make it a fair race, I heated all the pans at 2400W until they reached 450F, and then backed off the power setting to maintain 450F. I did this in order not to compromise my saute’s tin lining. As you will see, both the clad Demeyere and the disk-based Fissler did print the typical brown doughnut, with a cooler center and periphery. By far the most even was the thick, all-aluminum pan, which actually was even over its entirety—even including the walls. The copper sauté was also quite even, although its larger size and mass really dissipated heat; once 450F was dialed in, no more browning happened, even after 30 minutes.
       
      I conclude that the straightgauge pans were far more effective at shunting heat to their peripheries and walls (and also to some extent into the air) than the clad and disk-based pans. The latter accumulated their heat with most of it staying in the center of the pans. Eventually, even the “doughnut hole” blended into the scorch ring because the walls were not bleeding sufficient heat away from the floor. This was especially pronounced in the Fissler, the high wall and rim areas of which never exceeded 125F. The aluminum pan, in contrast varied less than 30F everywhere on the pan.

      D. Other Considerations

      The Panasonic’s fan noise at the cook’s position was noticeable at 63 dBA, higher than with the VMP’s 57 dBA. These levels are characterized as “normal conversation” and “quiet street”, respectively. Interestingly, I found two other, potentially more important differences. First, the Panasonic’s fan stays on, even after the unit is powered off, whereas the VMP’s fan shuts off immediately when the hob is turned off. Second, the Panasonic’s fan steps down from the louder speed to a much quieter (47 dBA, characterized as “quiet home”) level until the Ceran is cool to sustained touch, at which point it shuts off completely. I think the Panasonic’s ability to continue to vent and cool itself is a great feature, especially since a cook could leave a large, full, hot pan on the glass.

      The glowing circle is useless for gauging heat setting or intensity. And while it works to indicate a hot surface, it remains lit long after you can hold your hand in place dead center.
       
      VI. Summary and Lessons
       
      The Panasonic KY-MK3500 is a solid unit, well-conceived and rugged. It is extremely easy to use. It works well with both the common 24kHz frequency used with ferromagnetic cookware, and the 90kHz frequency chosen here for copper and aluminum. It effectively and automatically switches between the two.

      In my opinion, it points the way to expanding the worldwide induction appliance market to include dual frequencies. It also obviates the need to: (a) junk otherwise excellent cookware merely to have induction; and (b) retrofit designs to bond on ferromagnetic outer layers. In fact, in my opinion, my tests indicate that, in a dual-frequency world, adding ferromagnetic bottoms may well be a drag on pans’ performance.
       
      I also consider the Panasonic Met-All to be ground-breaking in what it can tell us about *pans*, because all metallic pans are now commensurable on induction. Clearly (to me anyway), watt-for-watt, the copper and aluminum pans performed better than did the clad and disk-based pans on this unit. Boil times were faster, there was less propensity to scorch, and the conductive-sidewall pans definitely added more heat to the pans’ contents. We may ultimately find that 90kHz fields save energy compared to 24kHz fields, much as copper and aluminum require less heat on gas and electric coil.
      In terms of heat transfer, the copper and aluminum pans came close to emulating the same pans on gas. And at 2400W/3500W it has the power of a full size appliance in a relatively small tabletop package.
       
      The Panasonic is far from perfect, however. It can’t really be considered portable. There are far too few temperature settings, and what few it has are not accurate or consistent in terms of judging pan contents and attaining the same temperature in different pans (and even the same pan unless clean). The luminous ring could easily have been made a useful indicator of intensity, but wasn’t. And it lacks things that should be obvious, including a through-the-glass “button” contact thermocouple, more power granularity, an analog-style control knob, and capacity to accept an external thermocouple probe for PID control.
       
      Most importantly for me, the Panasonic KY-MK3500 portends more good things to come. Retail price remains $1,700-$2,400, but I jumped on it at $611, and I’ve seen it elsewhere for as low as $1,200.
       
      The manual can be found here: ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/commercialfoo...
       
      Photo Credit:  Panasonic Corporation

    • By haresfur
      We have started into fixing the kitchen after starting planning several years ago - almost as long as the dishwasher has been dead and the oven barely functional. And don't get me started on the non-exhaust fan.
       
      Before the destruction but after removing all the crap:
       

       
       
       

       
      The fridge was replaced not too long ago and is staying where it is. We had to have its alcove expanded. Perhaps not the best ergonomic location but it fits. We aren't moving the other appliances or sink very far so are hoping the plumbing and electric are no big deal.
       
      End of first day. We caught a couple of things in time. The fume hood and cupboards over the cook-top were set too low. They were going to set the sink as an over-mount when we had bought and under-mount. Apparently it could be done either way but silly us for not making it clear that the sink described as an undermount should be under the counter top. We decide the cupboard to the right of the oven should open the other way so we can get in there when cooking. Our mistake but I hope we can keep the oil, salt, pepper, etc. there rather than cluttering up the counter. The cabinet guy insisted that the cook-top couldn't be centred over the oven. I still don't understand why but not a big deal. It will be easier to get around the island when someone else is cooking but harder to squeeze past into the pantry.
       
      It seems to me that the walls should have been re-done before the cabinets went up. I think this was easier on the cabinet guy who is doing most of the coordination but probably will be a pain for the plasterer. And we have some trim issues to work out.
       

       

       

       
      Day 2 fixing things, electrical work, and measuring for the countertops. Now we wait for them to be finished before much else can happen.
       

       
      Spock is not impressed.
       
       
    • By &roid
      We’ve lived in our house for about twelve years and did a small extension not long after we moved in. With our growing family (son number two arrived this July) we wanted to get a bit more living space so started looking at options about a year ago. We have a late Victorian house with a separate dining room, as nice as this is it’s been a big waste of space - we probably used it two or three times a year. So the plan was to extend the kitchen to add a decent sized dining area and free up the dining room for something better. 
       
      The kitchen we had is under ten years old so we’ve decided to keep some parts of it, adding new worktops, a large rangetop and a breakfast cabinet with pocket doors to hide away the toaster and coffee machine. 
       
      We’re about halfway through the build at the moment so thought I’d post up some pictures of our progress. Hopefully we’ll be finished this side of Christmas... hopefully!
    • By chocoera
      Hi guys!  So...as we all know hindsight is 20/20....so i'm sure we ALLLLLLLLLLLL  have things we'd do differently if setting up our home or professional workplaces.  I'm working with a space that's approximately 850 sq ft.  If you could create your ideal space, what would you do?  The kicker is, i'm a mixed media kitchen, i dont do straight chocolate work.  I do baking so i'll have a double vertical convection oven, i'm getting rid of my 6 burner range and switching to table top induction burners. I have a dishwasher and big sink for rinsing vs 3 compartment sink (hand sink of course) and mop sink....and i have multiple 7 ft and 8 ft stainless tables. I currently have a "cooling room" set up with 4 speed racks, but thought maybe i should switch to a fridge turned up to 40 or 50F? I freeze things for bulk production, so will still have some chest freezers set higher than normal....but yeah. i'm just at a loss of how to capitalize on space, and keep things organized and storage of bon bons, turtles, barks, chocolate caramel apples (things that need to be stored for packaging by employees before they hit the retail floor)  i know jin from vegas had a fridge set at 50F for cooling molds once sprayed and shelled, then once she filled them, moved to a 40F fridge to set filling, then she sealed them...but i didn't remember where she kept bon bons for her bar (where customers pick and choose) or the ones out ready to be boxed?  i know she and jean marie were freezing for bulk orders etc...but yeah.  my mind is just overwhelmed with possibilities, and i just dont want to mess up this new kitchen layout. i think its harder because i make so many things in my kitchen, so i have pots, pans, sheet pans, springforms, cookie cutters, muffin tins, kitchen aid mixers, a floor mixer,  mol d'arts, baking liners, molds, colors, EZ temper, brushes, kitchen utensils, transfer sheets, bulk chocolate and ingredients blah blah blah.   so. if you guys could make an ideal workflow....would you do a walk-in fridge for confection storage? a few fridges set higher (but would humidity be an issue if stored for multiple days before packaging), build another cooling room (it was a room with drywall/insulation/a door/speedracks and portable AC set to keep that room cooler...), or yeah.  thoughts?  oh yeah. and  i need to fit an enrober in there too.  sooooo, ideal workspace. what's in it?  and go!  :0)
    • By weinoo
      I've started a few topics about various renovation related subjects (here and here), but figured I'd put the overall project in its own. Pix often tell the story even better...
       
      It helps to have these. Well, you need to have these if you expect to get anything done in your coop.
       

       
      Then stuff can start...
       

       

       

       
      And then start getting rebuilt.
       

       

       
      A little better electrical system.
       

       

       
      New pipes have to be done in the walls.
       

       

       

       

       
      This Started on September 8th. They've had approximately 25 days on which work was done.
       
      Proceeding along nicely, I'd say.
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