"Ethnic" food

Pan · February 25, 2003

All I wrote is what I believe the word "ethnic" is code for. I don't even think people are trying to draw a negative inference when they use the term. But I thought that Pan's point was that it doesn't matter. There is a negative inference no matter what you intend to say.

That expresses my feelings pretty well. The treatment of some national and regional cuisines as being defined by not being "normal" food is problematic to me even when no negative inference is intended.

Pan · February 25, 2003

Isn't the point that, in Pan's context, "ethnic" is being used as imprecise short-hand for cheap, "foreign", largely (but not exclusively) non-white cuisines, as if they were a homogenous inexpensive eating opportunity for the white middle classes. "Hey, let's eat something ethnic tonight". I am putting it in those terms just to get across what might be offensive about the term. Ron, I don't think anyone's claiming that all uses of the word "ethnic" are potentially offensive.
But I thought that Pan's point was that it doesn't matter. There is a negative inference no matter what you intend to say.
i'm having a hard time reconciling these two statements.
edited for clarity.

I'll try to clarify.

The word "ethnic" is not a bad word. It's problematic to me only when "ethnic" is reserved for others, not for the ethnic group the speaker is a member of nor those ethnic groups considered tacitly or explicitly by the speaker to be prestigious. Do you see what I mean? Virtually everything is ethnic because we all have ethnic identities, but that meaning of "ethnic" would make total nonsense of the phrase "ethnic food," so the logical conclusion is that the phrase has a meaning other than its literal one.

Steve Plotnicki · February 25, 2003

I'm glad we are in agreement. But Yvonne is right. It has to do with white people describing non-whites. Even though they use a pretty thin measure because they think of Italians and Greeks as non-whites! You just need to find a non-racial word to replace it. It needs to be a word that describes the food, not the people who prepare it.

stefanyb · February 25, 2003

I'm glad we are in agreement. But Yvonne is right. It has to do with white people describing non-whites. Even though they use a pretty thin measure because they think of Italians and Greeks as non-whites! You just need to find a non-racial word to replace it. It needs to be a word that describes the food, not the people who prepare it.

Its more than just race. Its the general concept of the other coupled with the notion of peasant. So its both racial and economic. The two root causes of immigration have been poverty and discrimination based on race and/or religion which brings us back to immigrant cuisine. :laugh:

macrosan · February 25, 2003

This debate seems to be moving into Wonderland :laugh:

Of course there are some people who misuse words. Of course there are some people who subvert the meaning of words to suit their own purposes. But that's no reason to doubt the proper, or general usage of the word, nor to talk about banning it.

Fat Guy is substantially right in saying that the general use of the term "ethnic food" is to mean food which is unorthodox to the person using the term. So to an Englishman, Korean food is ethnic, but to a Korean it is not. Now I have no idea whether in the Korean language there is any usage of the term "ethnic food" but if there were, then presumably English food would be ethnic.

What on earth is wrong with that ?

Some people have postulated that the food of Europeans, or the food of white races, or the food of rich races, is not considered "ethnic" in order to support their argument. But they have produced no evidence of that, and I deny it. I consider Greek food to be ethnic, and Swedish, and German, and Polish. Most people I know, to the extent that they use the term "ethnic food" would agree with me.

To escalate the discussion into a psychological and philosophical examination of how language directs thought, or how words which express differences create human conflict, is to create a solution looking for a problem. Find me a substantial body of people who are offended by the term "ethnic food" and I'll think again :laugh:

AdamLawrence · February 25, 2003

But isn't the lumping of just about every non-white, non-northern European (or however it's described) cuisine (or indeed culture) into one barrel marked 'ethnic' something of a put-down. Implying, it'll be cheap, it won't be 'serious' (although it may be very, very good). Isn't this at least part of the explanation for restaurants from those cultures struggling to be accepted as top places, capable of providing a dining experience on a par with those from the 'non-ethnic' cultures?

I know this is something of a long bow, and to an extent I'm playing devil's advocate, but....

cheers

Adam

macrosan · February 25, 2003

But isn't the lumping of just about every non-white, non-northern European (or however it's described) cuisine (or indeed culture) into one barrel marked 'ethnic' something of a put-down. Implying, it'll be cheap, it won't be 'serious' (although it may be very, very good). Isn't this at least part of the explanation for restaurants from those cultures struggling to be accepted as top places, capable of providing a dining experience on a par with those from the 'non-ethnic' cultures?

But Adam, this is exactly an example of the point I'm making.

Who "lumps just about everything non-white .... into one barrel marked "ethnic" ? Who ? Do you do it ? Everyone making this argument seems to be saying "Of course I don't do that, but the guy round the corner....". I'll say again that I deny that people generally are doing this.

Now I know what I mean when I use the term "ethnic food". And what I mean has nothing whatsoever in any sense or form to do with what you describe here, and what others have described. It is a vague term which has limited value, but it may sometimes be useful, but it is in no sense derogatory.

I'm waiting for one single person at eGullet to say that they use the term to mean non-white, non-European, inferior, cheap, or any other of the derogatory ascriptions suggested in this thread. And if no-one at eGullet does so, then someone name me one food writer, or restaurant critic, or journalist who does so. Or just say that you know some people who do. But please someone give me some evidence that we can discuss.

tommy · February 25, 2003

Virtually everything is ethnic because we all have ethnic identities, but that meaning of "ethnic" would make total nonsense of the phrase "ethnic food," so the logical conclusion is that the phrase has a meaning other than its literal one.

it does to me. i stated as much a bit back. it is surely not nonsense when i use it in conversation with friends. all sorts of phrases have meanings other than their literal one.

it works for me. i'll go on using it and not doubt offending countless. i'm still failing to see the real issue here. i have no doubt that there *is* an issue, but i'm not sure these posts have explained it very well.

can we take a poll of how many people are referring to the people who cook the food rather than to the food when they use the word "ethnic?" you gotta be kidding me. this hyper-sensitivity to this type of thing never ceases to amaze and baffle.

Edited February 25, 2003 by tommy (log)

Steve Plotnicki · February 25, 2003

Now I know what I mean when I use the term "ethnic food". And what I mean has nothing whatsoever in any sense or form to do with what you describe here, and what others have described. It is a vague term which has limited value, but it may sometimes be useful, but it is in no sense derogatory.

Martin Rosen - It's a vague term? It means "not-white" or "not our religion" or "not like us" among other inferences. What is vague is the lack of a definition in that sentence.

I still vote for "multi-cultural cuisine." I don't think it's a slur or derogatory in to describe something or someone as not being from your culture. There is no race or class distinction loaded into the phrase, and it can easily be describing a bouillabaisse as a dish from Korea. And you can even say that American cuisine (whatever that is) is part of the multi-cultural cuisines available in the U.S.

Edited February 25, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

=Mark · February 25, 2003

I usually use the term Regional US Cuisine to describe specific types of cooking ascribed to a particular part of the US. Multi Cultural is leaning a little to close to PC for my comfort. Would find it hard to decide which countries cuisine to choose with "It's a Small World After All" going around in the back of my head... :wacko:

Wilfrid · February 25, 2003

I'll own up. I've used it, and this discussion has made me think seriously about the way in which I've used it. I think this is clearly an issue about race and ethnicity, and I'm afraid the fact that Greeks may get grouped in with non-white ethnic groups doesn't help - rather the opposite in fact. An alternative would be useful, but I think we need to face up to the issue frankly if we're going to find one.

Pan: This is not central to the discussion, but while I agree with you that there is a musical form, known as "rhythm and blues", which you accurately describe, "R&B" has also been used for some time as an inaccurate but convenient catch-all for soul, hip hop, rap, blues and any other "black" music going. Example from Billboard.

tommy · February 25, 2003

I'll own up. I've used it, and this discussion has made me think seriously about the way in which I've used it. I think this is clearly an issue about race and ethnicity, and I'm afraid the fact that Greeks may get grouped in with non-white ethnic groups doesn't help - rather the opposite in fact. An alternative would be useful, but I think we need to face up to the issue frankly if we're going to find one.

good for you. all of you horrible racists should own up, think of your motives (and another word to describe your feelings, which obviously won't change with the word), while the rest of us will continue to use "ethnic" in its innocuous form. :biggrin:

Wilfrid · February 25, 2003

It's just as well I love you, isn't it?

MWAH! :wub:

Ron Johnson · February 25, 2003

If a Norwegian restaurant opened in a neighborhood in Managua, Nicaragua, wouldn't the locals consider it to be ethnic because it is food from an ethnic background different than their own? thats what the term ethnic means. So in countries with an ethnic background primarily of northern european descent, the term"ethnic" will be used to describe things that come from an ethnic background that is not northern european. The reverse is equally true. That is why it is not derogatory or politically incorrect to use the term. KFC, McDonalds, and Pizza Hut can be considered ethnic food when they open in China.

tommy · February 25, 2003

if "ethnic" is a word that is used to describe the people who prepare my food in NYC, then i'd guess that, looking at most kitchens in NYC, i'd call 99.9% of restaurants "ethnic." and maybe 100% on some days.

stefanyb · February 25, 2003

If complete verbal "cleanliness" is the goal for a word to be used instead of ethnic then rustic could be it. Its totally non-political, non-biased and completely neutral. Its not as good a descriptor but who cares about precision when someone's feelings are at stake. :laugh:

g.johnson · February 25, 2003

I hate the country.

Wilfrid · February 25, 2003

If a Norwegian restaurant opened in a neighborhood in Managua, Nicaragua, wouldn't the locals consider it to be ethnic because it is food from an ethnic background different than their own? thats what the term ethnic means. So in countries with an ethnic background primarily of northern european descent, the term"ethnic" will be used to describe things that come from an ethnic background that is not northern european. The reverse is equally true. That is why it is not derogatory or politically incorrect to use the term. KFC, McDonalds, and Pizza Hut can be considered ethnic food when they open in China.

But, in the US and UK at least, the term is plainly not being used in that way. Daniel is not considered an ethnic restaurant. Neither is Le Cirque. Neither is Nobu. Neither, I contend, is Benny's Burritos - some may disagree. The Kabab Cafe is.

Ron Johnson · February 25, 2003

But, in the US and UK at least, the term is plainly not being used in that way. Daniel is not considered an ethnic restaurant. Neither is Le Cirque. Neither is Nobu. Neither, I contend, is Benny's Burritos - some may disagree. The Kabab Cafe is.

Right. Thats my point. In Syria, McDonalds would be ethnic. To the Syrians that is.

Edited February 25, 2003 by Ron Johnson (log)

stefanyb · February 25, 2003

In Syria, McDonalds would be ethnic. To the Syrians that is.

Only because its food eaten by the lower classes. :biggrin:

Ron Johnson · February 25, 2003

In Syria, McDonalds would be ethnic. To the Syrians that is.
Only because its food eaten by the lower classes.

:shock: :laugh:

cdh · February 25, 2003

Here's another take on it... In the USA, "ethnic" is what food is before it is assimilated into the common experience of most Americans. Indiagirl's point about "ethnic" food being food that requires ingredients that you can't get through mass marketing distribution chains backs up this theory. The cultural and racial aspects are, I'd suggest, artifacts of the distribution networks for the required ingredients. "Ethnic" is a stage that food passes through in the marketplace, until it is either accepted and folded into the mainstream, or remains sidelined for lack of economic pressure to incoprorate it into the mass market.

As Indiagirl said, a hallmark of "ethnic" food is that certain ingredients must be imported or otherwise recreated in this country. Who is going to know how to select/reproduce the desired ingredient? Somebody who is from the point of origin, with first-hand knowledge of what the ingredient is like in its original environment. The person with this first-hand knowledge is also likely to have a social network of people of similar familiarity with the foreign point of origin and its language and culture, some of whom are likely to be people who want cook with familiar ingredients in a foreign land, and others are the entrepreneurial budding "ethnic" restauranteurs. Thus is explained the cultural homogenaeity at the beginning of the introduction of food into America.

A few examples to beat the dead horse that it is access to non-mainstream ingredients that is a hallmark of "ethnic" cuisine: French isn't "ethnic" because you can walk into a supermarket and pick up just about everything you need to cook a french meal, because those ingredients are in the mass market distribution chain (with notable annoying exceptions like unsmoked bacon.) Southern Italian might have once been "ethnic" when mainstream grocers didn't carry basil and olive oil, though northern Italian would never have ethnic since it's distinctive ingredients (except maybe certain cheeses) have been available in the mainstream larder.

Food stops being ethnic when its ingredients reach a critical mass of distribution, and become integrated into the greater melange that American cuisine has become. There was a time, if i recall correctly, that brocolli was considered ethnic italian food. Not any more. Plenty more examples... grocery store pierogies... grocery store dolmas (though very infrequently the grape leaves from which they're made.) Foods transition through "ethnic" status...

Pan · February 25, 2003

Pan: This is not central to the discussion, but while I agree with you that there is a musical form, known as "rhythm and blues", which you accurately describe, "R&B" has also been used for some time as an inaccurate but convenient catch-all for soul, hip hop, rap, blues and any other "black" music going. Example from Billboard.

I looked at the link you gave. I never knew people were using "R&B" in such a misleading way. Having a "Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Singles" category is almost as bad as having a "Swing/Heavy Metal" category. :raz:

Pan · February 25, 2003

Virtually everything is ethnic because we all have ethnic identities, but that meaning of "ethnic" would make total nonsense of the phrase "ethnic food," so the logical conclusion is that the phrase has a meaning other than its literal one.
it does to me. i stated as much a bit back. it is surely not nonsense when i use it in conversation with friends. all sorts of phrases have meanings other than their literal one.
it works for me. i'll go on using it and not doubt offending countless. i'm still failing to see the real issue here. i have no doubt that there *is* an issue, but i'm not sure these posts have explained it very well.
can we take a poll of how many people are referring to the people who cook the food rather than to the food when they use the word "ethnic?" you gotta be kidding me. this hyper-sensitivity to this type of thing never ceases to amaze and baffle.

Considering how many of the cooks in New York restaurants of all sorts of descriptions are Mexicans, I don't think that the ethnic identity of the people in the back of the house (who are unknown to most customers or potential customers of restaurants) is the thing that causes people to call the restaurants "ethnic" or not to call them "ethnic" (as "non-ethnic" wouldn't normally be used for the unmarked category).

Stone · February 25, 2003

I think you're engaged in an admirable attempt to define a loose, non-uniform term. However, since Plotnicki pretty much provided the answer in the first response, . . . .

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