Induction cooktops and electrical power

[CanadianHomeChef]

Heard about this last month and I'm intrigued. Unfortunately not available in Canada.

Seems like they have a long term vision of being a distributor of decentralized stored energy that gets deployed back into the grid at peak hours if the homeowner isn't using it. Seems like an interesting concept if it takes off.

Edited February 19 by CanadianHomeChef (log)

[Laurentius]

7 hours ago, CanadianHomeChef said:

Seems like an interesting concept if it takes off.

 

If this concept was truly promising, why haven't we (or the Scandinavians who originated it) advanced the idea of charging our EVs at night and discharging the surplus electricity during the day?

 

I suspect the laws of thermodynamics will prove a firm obstacle.

Edited February 20 by Laurentius
Mispelling. (log)

[chromedome]

8 hours ago, Laurentius said:

 

If this concept was truly promising, why haven't we (or the Scandinavians who originated it) advanced the idea of charging our EVs at night and discharging the surplus electricity during the day?

 

I suspect the laws of thermodynamics will prove a firm obstacle.

Vehicle-to-load/vehicle-to-grid already exists, though it's still in its infancy and not all BEVs support it. And yes, it is potentially a way to stabilize the grid once EV adoption reaches the necessary level; it's been researched for years in terms of both the technology and the policy incentives necessary to make it happen at scale. 

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421518300995

https://www.virta.global/blog/vehicle-to-grid-boom-is-around-the-corner

 

Currently in North America it's being framed in terms of your EV being an emergency power source during outages (Ford's ads for the electric F-150 really pushed that), but for anyone who lives in a jurisdiction where a) power rates fluctuate with demand, and b) net metering is available, it can be done at a personal level right now as a bill-management thing. I'm sure there is some degree of loss involved as the electrons move in one direction or the other, but the variance between daytime and nighttime rates is what will make it or break it for a given individual.

The batteries in home appliances will be significantly smaller than those in vehicles, of course, but once the principle becomes established with vehicles I expect it could be implemented with any other product containing a battery of a given minimum size. In fact, the more I think about it, as battery chemistries improve and the cost per kw/h comes down, I can absolutely see the value in adding a battery to appliances. For those of us who live in areas prone to power outages, wouldn't it be wonderful to own a fridge and freezer with their own battery backup?

 

[dcarch]

"-------With V2G technology, electricity can be taken from the car battery and pushed back into the grid. V2G and vehicle-to-X (for example vehicle to home, vehicle to building) are basically the same technology. The key word is bi-directional.-----"

 

All batteries have limited charge/discharge cycles. The more you cycle the quicker the battery ages. We all know how soon a cell phone's battery needs to be replaced. Have you check out how much it can cost you to replace a car battery? WOW!

 

It sounds to me the VAG concept means your batteries will be constantly charged and discharged.

 

dcarch

[CanadianHomeChef]

10 hours ago, Laurentius said:

 

If this concept was truly promising, why haven't we (or the Scandinavians who originated it) advanced the idea of charging our EVs at night and discharging the surplus electricity during the day?

 

I suspect the laws of thermodynamics will prove a firm obstacle.

The technology already exists with EVs. 
 

Regardless, as we add more renewable sources of energy to the grid, we will need to establish a network of storage, decentralized or centralized.  Renewables have fluctuations in production in addition to consumption. There’s times in the day when lots can be produced but little is consumed, and vice versa. Storage will be key to replacing the non-renewables. 

[AlaMoi]

do note, after spending money for your charging station, you'll have to spend more money for the hardware to feed your battery power back into the electrical grid.

 

solar panel installations have been doing this for a long time.  one used to get 100% of your purchase cost as a credit - many utilities are now fighting that concept, going for less credit.

 

and, so far as feeding your battery power back into the grid at night, who you gonna' call at 8am when your EV battery won't get you to work?

there's all kind of technology that is possible, works in the lab, works in real life, but has "issues" in the real world.

[dcarch]

36 minutes ago, AlaMoi said:

do note, after spending money for your charging station, you'll have to spend more money for the hardware to feed your battery power back into the electrical grid.

 

It gets very complicated. Solar panel system is low voltage DC power which needs to be converted and stepped up to 110vAC (or 220vAC) to feed to the grid. Car batteries in general put out around 400VDC, which needs to be stepped down and converted to 110VAC. 

 

Not easy and not cheap for high power (amperage) electrical and electronic bi-directional system work.

 

So, adding batteries to kitchen appliances to tie into the grid? good luck finding a repair person if some thing goes wrong.

 

dcarch

 

 

Edited February 20 by dcarch (log)

[palo]

I think the law of diminishing returns would rear its ugly head in those kitchens

 

p

[Laurentius]

14 hours ago, chromedome said:

but once the principle becomes established with vehicles I expect it could be implemented with any other product containing a battery of a given minimum size.

 

IF...  COULD...

 

My point about Scandinavia is that the concept has been in trials there for years now.  My understanding is that the concept makes the most sense for EV owners who only have short commutes to discharge=equipped parking stations, and no long frolics or errands after work.  We can't even give people a decent range hogging all the charge to themselves.

[&roid]

On 2/20/2024 at 6:20 PM, dcarch said:

So, adding batteries to kitchen appliances to tie into the grid? good luck finding a repair person if some thing goes wrong.

I know what you mean but I’m sure there were plenty of horsemen and coach drivers who said similar about internal combustion engines, “pah! These new fangled cars will never take off. Who would even fix them!”

 

it feels almost inevitable that we’ll all have cheap, scalable power storage in our homes.

Whether these guys and this idea works out, who knows. But a current lack of repairmen isn’t the issue. 

[chromedome]

12 hours ago, &roid said:

I know what you mean but I’m sure there were plenty of horsemen and coach drivers who said similar about internal combustion engines, “pah! These new fangled cars will never take off. Who would even fix them!”

 

it feels almost inevitable that we’ll all have cheap, scalable power storage in our homes.

Whether these guys and this idea works out, who knows. But a current lack of repairmen isn’t the issue. 

I wrote a long rant about storage, renewables and their inevitable rise, but it would take us well OT so I've refrained.

[dcarch]

 

4 hours ago, chromedome said:

I wrote a long rant about storage, renewables and their inevitable rise, but it would take us well OT so I've refrained.

 

I agree. Yes, let's get back on topic, about cooking.

I was very happy recently that the off-grid system I built/configured from solar panels, successfully sous vided a 100 hour 8-lb brisket.

The system to connect the main components from solar panels to controller to inverter to monitor, to batteries  etc. was critical and complicated even for an off-grid (meaning one-way system). A two way on-grid system may be 10 times more complicated.

 

Imagine if you have to design a traffic control system for a high speed highway that both north going and south going traffic are using the same lanes.

 

dcarch

 

Edited February 22 by dcarch (log)

[rotuts]

a rechargeable battery so I can boil water in 30 seconds ?

 

way over kill : expense , durability , maintenance costs ....

 

for something that is not very important  

 

just because it can be done ,  doesn't make it worthwhile.

 

an induction cooktop that is durable , accurate , reliable and affordable

 

for sure.

[chromedome]

10 minutes ago, rotuts said:

a rechargeable battery so I can boil water in 30 seconds ?

 

way over kill : expense , durability , maintenance costs ....

 

for something that is not very important  

 

just because it can be done ,  doesn't make it worthwhile.

 

an induction cooktop that is durable , accurate , reliable and affordable

 

for sure.

Per the company's website, linked in the original post, it's only partly about boiling water quickly. More immediately it's about eliminating the need for a dedicated high-current 240v circuit for people who - like Blue_Dolphin upthread - aren't wired for it, and wouldn't be able to use a conventional range. In that context it's in interesting "out of the box" solution, and the money not spent on having an electrician re-wire your kitchen would probably defray a chunk of the price premium for the range itself.

I'm not saying it's a universal solution, by any means, but I'm sure it would work for some. If the technological and (more importantly) political hurdles involved prove surmountable, feeding energy back into the grid would just be a nice bonus.

[rotuts]

those are good points

 

hopefully the baterries would be easy for the user to replace

 

and be reasonably priced

[dcarch]

23 minutes ago, rotuts said:

those are good points

 

hopefully the baterries would be easy for the user to replace

 

and be reasonably priced

 

High current/high voltage batteries most likely would be hardwired and they will not be cheap because the balancing charging electronics.

 

dcarch