What's the best internal temperature for liquid for braised short ribs? Lid or no lid?

[torolover]

I know some recipes braise short ribs in a 350F oven, and some recipes braise in a 275F oven.

 

I understand that some recipes recommend 275F so the liquid and meat will cook at a lower temp.  This way the meat will stay juicier, although it will take longer to braise.

 

I tried braising the short ribs with veggies and water at 275F.  I checked the temp of the liquid after 1 hour, and I noticed it was about 210F!  This is almost boiling.

 

Is this normal?

 

I thought the point of cooking at 275F instead of 350F is to keep the liquid at a lower temperature than boiling.  Does 210F seems too hot?

 

Also some recipes ask to cover the pot with lid, some with no lid, and some with parchment paper with a hole in the middle.

 

I know the reason for adding the lid is to prevent the water from evaporating too much, but doesn't the lid also make the water too hot?

Edited August 1, 2021 by torolover (log)

[gfweb]

Great questions.

Water can't get hotter than 212f so a lid wont raise the temp. It will keep water from evaporating though .

 

A basic  method is to put a layer of carrots and onions on the bottom of the pot along with a couple cloves of smashed garlic.  Put in red wine to cover halfway up the meat and whisk in 2 tbsp of tomato paste. Salt and pepper.

 

I might add a little bit of cinnamon or 5-spice

 

Cover it and put in a 300F oven and ignore it for 2 hours. Then  turn the meat over and give it another hour or so. Remove t he meat and take the liquid and remove the fat...perhaps then thicken with starch and serve with the braised veg.

[torolover]

16 hours ago, gfweb said:

Great questions.

Water can't get hotter than 212f so a lid wont raise the temp. It will keep water from evaporating though .

 

A basic  method is to put a layer of carrots and onions on the bottom of the pot along with a couple cloves of smashed garlic.  Put in red wine to cover halfway up the meat and whisk in 2 tbsp of tomato paste. Salt and pepper.

 

I might add a little bit of cinnamon or 5-spice

 

Cover it and put in a 300F oven and ignore it for 2 hours. Then  turn the meat over and give it another hour or so. Remove t he meat and take the liquid and remove the fat...perhaps then thicken with starch and serve with the braised veg.

Thanks for the tips gfweb!

 

I'm still confused why some recipes ask for 275F or some ask for 350F.

 

Let's assume the recipes ask for the meat to be completely covered with liquid/stock.  Get the pot to reach a boil on the stove, and then put into the oven.

 

If I use a 275F oven the liquid reaches 210F or closet to boiling point.

If I use a 350F oven, the liquid will also reach 210F or close to boiling point.

 

In both cases the meat should cook about the same time, since the meat is being cooked at the same 210F liquid.

 

Am I missing something?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rotuts]

@torolover 

 

'''   Am I missing something?  '''

 

probably not.  more Rx's 

 

are ' traditional'  ie tis been done that way

 

before , so its done that way now

 

very few are ' scientifically ' studied

 

the results of the two methods are

 

probably very similar , and rarely

 

if ever , tasted side by side.

[gfweb]

33 minutes ago, torolover said:

Thanks for the tips gfweb!

 

I'm still confused why some recipes ask for 275F or some ask for 350F.

 

Let's assume the recipes ask for the meat to be completely covered with liquid/stock.  Get the pot to reach a boil on the stove, and then put into the oven.

 

If I use a 275F oven the liquid reaches 210F or closet to boiling point.

If I use a 350F oven, the liquid will also reach 210F or close to boiling point.

 

In both cases the meat should cook about the same time, since the meat is being cooked at the same 210F liquid.

 

Am I missing something?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nope.  As @rotuts says, there's a lot of tradition in recipes.

 

If you do as I do and just put room temp ingredients in the oven I suppose the the longer time to reach boiling in the 275 F oven might be a gentler cook than 350.  That could mean either better done or tougher meat.

 

But if you boil it first and then into the oven.  No difference.

[cdh]

Would 275 vs 350 have more of an effect on the sauce than on the meat?  As noted above, water doesn't go above 212... so how the meat cooks is limited by that...   how much of the water boils off might be affected by the rate of energy flowing into the water...  which should be higher in an environment 75 degrees hotter... unless there is some rule of thermodynamics I'm forgetting that makes that intuition bad.  Maybe hotter over means thicker sauce? 

Edited August 1, 2021 by cdh (log)

[Okanagancook]

Modernist Cuisine might enlighten us.  I am moving and have packed mine🤪or All About Braising by Molly somebody or other.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Okanagancook (log)

[rotuts]

@Okanagancook 

 

I was waiting for someone to make that move.

 

I know it wasn't going to be me.

 

and I can see the books , 

 

about 3 ft. away.

 

if you post page numbers

 

I might get enthused.

[gfweb]

30 minutes ago, cdh said:

Would 275 vs 350 have more of an effect on the sauce than on the meat?  As noted above, water doesn't go above 212... so how the meat cooks is limited by that...   how much of the water boils off might be affected by the rate of energy flowing into the water...  which should be higher in an environment 75 degrees hotter... unless there is some rule of thermodynamics I'm forgetting that makes that intuition bad.  Maybe hotter over means thicker sauce? 

Good thoughts.  I guess  the seal on the pot would be a big factor in letting water escape.

 

I usually concentrate the juices a little after the braise.

[rotuts]

in FancyPants French cooking :

 

they sometimes cut out a pice of parchment paper

 

that fits the surface of the braise.  then add the top.

 

im not sure what this really does .

 

but it adds ' FancyPants-ness '

 

it might keep more liquid in the pot

 

but that would depend on the tightness of the top.

 

sometimes parchment paper is placed over the top

 

so the lid might have a tighter fit.

[Anna N]

I am not sure that 212°F is a particularly good temperature for braising. It’s great for boiling. 
 

“For best results, do not allow the braising liquid to boil; adjust your burner to the lowest setting (the liquid should be at a bare simmer), or braise in a slow oven set between 275°F (135°C) and 300°F (150°C). Some chefs swear by an even lower oven temperature of 200°F (95°C).”

 

Here.

[rotuts]

interesting article

 

browning the meat adds immense flavor 

 

however , if the meat is only 1/2 submerged 

 

it browns as it bakes in a covered pot

 

you just flip the meat over 1/2 way through

 

if a solid pice , or stir from time to time

 

making sure the meat is only 1/2 covered/

 

easier to do , and just as tasty.

[gfweb]

3 hours ago, rotuts said:

interesting article

 

browning the meat adds immense flavor 

 

however , if the meat is only 1/2 submerged 

 

it browns as it bakes in a covered pot

 

you just flip the meat over 1/2 way through

 

if a solid pice , or stir from time to time

 

making sure the meat is only 1/2 covered/

 

easier to do , and just as tasty.

I always marvel at how well exposed meat browns during a braise. I've stopped prebrowning the beef..as is called for by many recipes...because I think it might overcook the surface. 

 

As an aside I've found that a few slices of carrot in the braised veg will really improve the flavor of the liquid/sauce

Edited August 1, 2021 by gfweb (log)

[Bernie]

Lets back up a bit. Once you mix water with something else (that is dissolve something in it) it is no longer water.

It will boil at some other temperature.

It may be HIGHER or LOWER.

For example if you mix water with glycol (you get anti freeze) but it also increases the boiling point as well.

You add sugar to water and heat it and it will form a toffee which will certainly reach much higher than the boiling point of water (and I have had the burns to prove it, so there...)

 

A sauce containing water can certainly get above the boiling point of water but any water NOT Dissolved completely will tend to boil off (that's whats happening in a reduction).

 

In any mixture there will almost never be complete mixing there may still be some undissolved water which will boil at 210F.

 

In physics theory the temperature of the water is the average of all the energy levels of every molecule in the water. In theory there is a possibility that a layer of ice could form on a pot of boiling water if all the low energy molecules were to clump together on the top. The probability is extremely low though.😁

 

As far as the oven temperature that is more about heat transfer. It will take longer to get the liquid to its boiling point if you set the oven lower. Depending on the oven setting at one particular temperature usually means the oven heats till that temperature, stops heating until the temperature drops (5~20 degrees?) then starts the cycle again. Most thermostats and heaters are pretty crude in a technical sense but they do not really have to be.

 

Personally when doing a long braise I will have the lid on in the oven and initially set to 180C but lower it to 140C after it reaches temperature and remove the lid if I need to reduce the liquid.

 

[Bernie]

19 hours ago, rotuts said:

in FancyPants French cooking :

 

they sometimes cut out a pice of parchment paper

 

that fits the surface of the braise.  then add the top.

 

im not sure what this really does .

 

but it adds ' FancyPants-ness '

 

it might keep more liquid in the pot

 

but that would depend on the tightness of the top.

 

sometimes parchment paper is placed over the top

 

so the lid might have a tighter fit.

Doesn't the parchment stop the top of the contents being exposed to the hot air of the oven without a lid or the bit of hot air at the top of the pot if it has a lid on it?

That way you don't get any drying of the top layer from exposure to the hotter air rather than the actual cooler cooking liquid.

I could be wrong though. ( which is not an unusual occurrence )

 

[gfweb]

1 hour ago, Bernie said:

Lets back up a bit. Once you mix water with something else (that is dissolve something in it) it is no longer water.

It will boil at some other temperature.

It may be HIGHER or LOWER.

For example if you mix water with glycol (you get anti freeze) but it also increases the boiling point as well.

You add sugar to water and heat it and it will form a toffee which will certainly reach much higher than the boiling point of water (and I have had the burns to prove it, so there...)

 

A sauce containing water can certainly get above the boiling point of water but any water NOT Dissolved completely will tend to boil off (that's whats happening in a reduction).

 

In any mixture there will almost never be complete mixing there may still be some undissolved water which will boil at 210F.

 

In physics theory the temperature of the water is the average of all the energy levels of every molecule in the water. In theory there is a possibility that a layer of ice could form on a pot of boiling water if all the low energy molecules were to clump together on the top. The probability is extremely low though.😁

 

As far as the oven temperature that is more about heat transfer. It will take longer to get the liquid to its boiling point if you set the oven lower. Depending on the oven setting at one particular temperature usually means the oven heats till that temperature, stops heating until the temperature drops (5~20 degrees?) then starts the cycle again. Most thermostats and heaters are pretty crude in a technical sense but they do not really have to be.

 

Personally when doing a long braise I will have the lid on in the oven and initially set to 180C but lower it to 140C after it reaches temperature and remove the lid if I need to reduce the liquid.

 

 

 

You've made some statements that are true but the application to braising isn't obvious.

 

Dissolved stuff won't change the boiling point by more than a degree or 2.  Oven cycles happen, but the temp in the braise is buffered by the liquid which will even out  the variations.

[catdaddy]

3 hours ago, Bernie said:

Doesn't the parchment stop the top of the contents being exposed to the hot air of the oven without a lid or the bit of hot air at the top of the pot if it has a lid on it?

That way you don't get any drying of the top layer from exposure to the hotter air rather than the actual cooler cooking liquid.

I could be wrong though. ( which is not an unusual occurrence )

 

I think you're on to something here....  Although the liquid in a braise never gets over 212 degrees the air directly above the liquid certainly does so if you are actually braising (as opposed to poaching) whatever portion of the short rib is above the water is cooking at a higher temp than the submerged part. I was always told to submerge short ribs when cooking them so they don't dry out. Never really considered why just another thing on the list.

[Bernie]

cartouche  (usually parchment cartouche).

Don't you hate it when you know you know what the name is but you can't remember it at the time and then a couple of days later for no apparent reason it suddenly pops in the brain when you are doing nothing related!😕

[Duvel]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:26 AM, Bernie said:

Lets back up a bit. Once you mix water with something else (that is dissolve something in it) it is no longer water.

It will boil at some other temperature.

It may be HIGHER or LOWER.

Maybe to assist here a bit: dissolved components usually increase the boiling point of the resulting (watery) solution. Notable exceptions are components, that themselves have a lower boiling point than water. In the kitchen context that is only ethanol. As @gfweb has rightfully pointed out, the effect is minuscule and does not contribute to the effects discussed here, though.

 

On 8/2/2021 at 11:26 AM, Bernie said:

You add sugar to water and heat it and it will form a toffee which will certainly reach much higher than the boiling point of water (and I have had the burns to prove it, so there...)

This is not fully correct. The water initially added to melt and caramelize sugar is used in order to avoid burning. It will evaporate and the sugar will eventually caramelize (thus polymerize). This is not related to the above mentioned increase in boiling point.

 

On 8/2/2021 at 11:26 AM, Bernie said:

A sauce containing water can certainly get above the boiling point of water but any water NOT Dissolved completely will tend to boil off (that's whats happening in a reduction).

Water in this case is the solvent. As you agitate the solution (e.g. by boiling), concentration gradients will quickly dissipate. There won‘t be areas of „pure water“ left. The evaporation takes place all over the surface of the solution is a statistic process, depending on relative concentration and boiling point.

 

On 8/2/2021 at 11:26 AM, Bernie said:

In physics theory the temperature of the water is the average of all the energy levels of every molecule in the water. In theory there is a possibility that a layer of ice could form on a pot of boiling water if all the low energy molecules were to clump together on the top. The probability is extremely low though.😁

Unfortunately, this is not correct. Entropy will ensure this does not happen. 

 

On 8/2/2021 at 11:26 AM, Bernie said:

As far as the oven temperature that is more about heat transfer. It will take longer to get the liquid to its boiling point if you set the oven lower.

Yes, and even more importantly it is about the heat transfer medium. Saturated steam (e.g.) in a closed system will transfer heat far more efficiently than dry air (in an oven), and a rapidly boiling solution will do the same significantly better than a barely simmering medium. And this is where the major differences are rooted if you compare braising (a technique where the braised goods are not fully immersed in liquid) at higher vs. lower temperatures.

[dcarch]

Everything in the above discussion changes relative to temperature, depending on where you live. Altitude effects boiling point.

 

dcarch

 

 

[Duvel]

1 hour ago, dcarch said:

Altitude effects boiling point.

Yes. However, I do not see how

 

1 hour ago, dcarch said:

Everything in the above discussion changes relative to temperature,

 

From my point of view the statements given concerning the delta of temperature choices and the lid/no lid discussion will not differ, whether the braise is done by @BonVivant at sea level or by @Panaderia Canadiense somewhere above the clouds …

Edited August 4, 2021 by Duvel (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

My go-to method for short ribs is French Laundry instruction for the ox-tail part of Surf and Turf.   In short, marinate meat overnight in “cooked” red wine and chopped aromatic vegetables, add all this to browned meats, cover with paper lid and  cook in oven low and slow.   Have never considered internal temperature, only meat’s unctuous doneness.   This is very “in short” as I have cooked this so often that I’m sure I’ve veered far from Keller’s original.   People call the next day for the “recipe”.    

[Bernie]

5 hours ago, Duvel said:

On 8/2/2021 at 7:26 PM, Bernie said:

You add sugar to water and heat it and it will form a toffee which will certainly reach much higher than the boiling point of water (and I have had the burns to prove it, so there...)

This is not fully correct. The water initially added to melt and caramelize sugar is used in order to avoid burning. It will evaporate and the sugar will eventually caramelize (thus polymerize). This is not related to the above mentioned increase in boiling point.

Pretty sure that is not the whole story. If you were to evaporate all the water then that indeed will be the case. But if you stop the process at say 110C then the volume will be different to what the sugar was alone. if you take cool sugar syrup and heat it it will continue to increase in temperature.

 

5 hours ago, Duvel said:

On 8/2/2021 at 7:26 PM, Bernie said:

In physics theory the temperature of the water is the average of all the energy levels of every molecule in the water. In theory there is a possibility that a layer of ice could form on a pot of boiling water if all the low energy molecules were to clump together on the top. The probability is extremely low though.😁

Unfortunately, this is not correct. Entropy will ensure this does not happen. 

Entropy is exactly why it CAN happen. Entropy (in this context) is the measure of the possibilities or any combination of states a chemical or substance can be in. If you like its a measure of the likely hood of the chemical or substance being in any possible random state.

In this case it is extremely unlikely, but just because statistically very very small, does not negate the possibility.

[Wait. Wot]

20 minutes ago, Bernie said:

 

Entropy is exactly why it CAN happen.

Just remember that entropy isn't what it used to be.

[Duvel]

14 hours ago, Bernie said:

Pretty sure that is not the whole story. If you were to evaporate all the water then that indeed will be the case. But if you stop the process at say 110C then the volume will be different to what the sugar was alone. if you take cool sugar syrup and heat it it will continue to increase in temperature.

Understood - my impression was that you wanted to go to the caramelized toffee stage. If you stay in the sirup stage(s), you will have residual water. However, your system changes from your initial 

 

On 8/2/2021 at 11:26 AM, Bernie said:

You add sugar to water

e.g. an aqueous solution of sugar (what this boiling point discussion is about) to metastable sugar melt with residual water content < 20%, so a slightly better description would be sugar with a lowered melting point. A good reference can be found here.

 

14 hours ago, Bernie said:

Entropy is exactly why it CAN happen. Entropy (in this context) is the measure of the possibilities or any combination of states a chemical or substance can be in. If you like its a measure of the likely hood of the chemical or substance being in any possible random state.

Sorry, @Bernie - this is not the definition of entropy. Your system starts from a random state of distribution, and will continue to maximize its entropy (or “randomness”) over time. This is the second law of thermodynamics.
 

Your system will not return spontaneously to a state that has a higher order, e.g. by randomly forming a temperature gradient or changing part of its state above the transition temperature (irreversibility). 
 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Duvel (log)