Maillard and Your Fond

[cdh]

@Rotuts 

 

You appear to have an interesting theory that  in a nonstick environment the thing being cooked accumulates the stuff that would become fond.  It is interesting in that the stuff clearly does not just vanish because it got put in a nonstick pan.  I have nothing to add by way of facts since I don't use nonstick for much beyond grilling cheese and making eggs... but most of what you typed went right past me because deciphering  poetry into prosaic ideas is beyond me. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by cdh (log)

[weinoo]

 

After the Maillard reaction took place via the pan frying of pork chops, a true fond formed. Some shallots and garlic were sautéed in the leftover fat. The pan was then deglazed with a lovely Riesling. When the Riesling evaporated, chicken stock (homemade, of course), Dijon mustard, red pepper jelly, Worcestershire sauce and apple cider vinegar were added to pan. Brought to a boil and then lowered to the barest of simmers, the pork chops were then braised for 15 or so minutes, removed, the sauce reduced and the dish plated.

 

No need for Bar Keeper's Friend, as all that schmutz was incorporated back into the sauce, leaving a nice, clean, stainless-steel pan.

Edited July 8, 2020 by weinoo (log)

[paulraphael]

Rotus, I'm sure that what you're doing tastes good, but as someone who's used both kinds of pans, I can promise that you're not getting equivalent results. 

 

That's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just a thing. If you're trying to make a traditional pan sauce, you don't use nonstick. If you're trying to do something else ... then who knows what's possible. 

 

Have you read The Structure of Scientific Revolutions? Kuhn had some good ideas, but was also a total crackpot. This multipart revenge essay by the great Errol Morris is a more fun read than anything by Kuhn himself. Short version: you'll impress some college fresh-people with paradigm-shift language, but anyone who's really scrutinized Kuhn will roll their eyes.

 

Personally, I enjoy debunking myths as much as I enjoy deglazing pans. My opinions on the fond topic are based on experience, not orthodoxy. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by paulraphael (log)

[MokaPot]

Here are some caramelized onions from a couple of weeks ago. This is a T-fal Teflon pot. I used medium-ish heat. (Electric coil stove, started at 6 on a scale of 1-10, then reduced heat as things progressed.) I also used an Oxo silicone spatula to scrape up the fond, periodically. Used olive oil. Did use salt, but in the past, have not used salt and got same results.

 

In the past, I have used All-Clad stainless steel and did like it a lot. Reason I use T-fal is because it's lightweight.

 

[rotuts]

@MokaPot 

 

there it is

 

look carefully 

 

''Q.E.D. "

 

Kudos your way

 

@MokaPot

[paulraphael]

I don't understand. What does browning onions have to do with anything? There's no reason to expect browning onions wouldn't work fine in a nonstick pan. You have to finish the job and complete the browning on relatively low heat, and you're not deglazing the pan to make a sauce base.

[weinoo]

For @rotuts - the first minute or so is what you want to hear...

 

 

[weinoo]

Oh, @rotuts...

Quote

 

THE PAN

If you intend to make a pan sauce, opt for a traditional skillet. A nonstick skillet will not develop fond to the same degree as a traditional skillet will, and, because fond supplies a pan sauce with richness and depth of flavor, a nonstick skillet will make a less flavorful pan sauce. Also important is the size of the skillet. It should comfortably hold the food being cooked. If it is overcrowded, the food will steam and will fail to create much fond.

 

 

From your favorite people at Cook's Illustrated!  

 

https://www.cooksillustrated.com/how_tos/5551-pan-sauces-101

[gfweb]

I think @rotuts contention is that the teflon keeps the flavor of the fond stuck to the meat rather than the pan; resulting in better meat flavor but no pan sauce-ability.

 

So is the pan sauce from fond an example of a great way to retain flavors or is it a lame half-measure to recapture flavor lost from the meat?

 

😏

[btbyrd]

Oh good... this thread again.

 

Rotut's point is that there is no difference between food cooked in stainless (or otherwise "sticky") and non-stick pans when cooking protein and then making a pan sauce. "F + M = constant" so "there is no difference on your plate." I have been unable to follow the logic of this; if there is less fond in a pan because more Maillard products are sticking to the meat, the pan sauce is clearly going to be inferior in flavor to one produced in a pan that has more fond. Even if the total amount of "fond + maillard" is the same between stick and nonstick, this doesn't mean that the results will be indistinguishable. Nonstick pans produce weaker sauces but can create more Maillard-y meat; stainless produces stronger sauce from Millard bits that are no longer attached to the surface of the meat. These are real differences "sur la plate" even if F + M = constant.

 

Nonstick pans also present technical challenges to making a pan sauce, as Paul Raphael has pointed out. It is not easy to remove cooking oil from a nonstick pan without discarding the "fond," and the "fond" can become bound up with the oil since it's not stuck to the bottom of the pan.

 

Even with all that being granted, I have found that cooking certain proteins in nonstick pans can produce tastier meat, as it gets covered with its own "fond" and browns more deeply. I wouldn't want to make a pan sauce in there afterwards though.

[rotuts]

@btbyrd 

 

""    cooking certain proteins in nonstick pans can produce tastier meat, as it gets covered with its own "fond" and browns more deeply. I wouldn't want to make a pan sauce in there afterwards though. ""

 

"" I wouldn't want to make a pan sauce in there afterwards though. "

 

Why not ?   I do it all the time.

 

"""   the pan sauce is clearly going to be inferior in flavor to one produced in a pan that has more fond. ""

 

no , not really , when the sauce goes on the meant in the end one always adds flavor to the fond for the sauce 

 

there is some flavor left in the pan , and thus the sauce is up to you

 

in any pan  

 

do you make Soup out of the Pan fond sauce ?  then OK, its a bit weak.

 

b ut you pour it over the more mall airy meat  and then that sauce

 

adds to the total taste.

 

"" These are real differences  "

 

I just dont think so.  unless your eat each separately.

 

"""   not easy to remove cooking oil from a nonstick pan "

 

and you added that oil ,  why ?

 

""   I wouldn't want to make a pan sauce in there afterwards though. "

 

why not ?  too much oil that the pan never needed ?

 

consider starting again , and you might be get q fine result

 

or not.

Edited September 13, 2020 by rotuts (log)