Milling and Baking with Heritage and Ancient Grains: Bread and Beyond

[Shelby]

52 minutes ago, Okanagancook said:

I am sad to report that my Vitamix ground Durum wheat pasta experiment is an epic fail...it’s in the bin.  Absolutely no elasticity...it crumbled through the pasta roller🤕

Maybe cutting it with some all purpose or 00 flour.

i will be interest in proper milled flour works.

@Paul Bacino what kind of pasta extruded do you have?

Do you think it had mostly to do with using the Vitamix to grind?  Or the wheat itself doesn't have enough gluten which would be why you would add some AP flour...... I haven't run across anyone adding vital wheat gluten but that doesn't mean it isn't done ---I've been reading about making pasta from home milled flour (just a bit this morning online).  

 

My eyes are a bit crossed from all of the studying I've been doing lol.

 

[Okanagancook]

Probably a combo of the lack of fine grind and the grain not having enough gluten.  Here a picture just after I mixed it and attempted to knead....that did not work; and a picture of it dropping through the pasta roller.

[Shelby]

Did you let it rest at all before kneading?  What was your flour to egg ratio?  

 

In no time we will all be experts at all this stuff  Or maybe semi-experts?

[Okanagancook]

I let it rest a few minutes before kneading and it was about one cup of flour to one egg and a little mist of water to bring it together...oh and a teaspoon of oil.

I let the dough rest in the fridge overnight before attempting to roll it.

It was so far away from pasta dough.

[keychris]

5 hours ago, rotuts said:

the pineapple juice trick is demo'd here :

 

https://breadtopia.com/make-your-own-sourdough-starter/

 

and credit is given to Peter Reinhart

 

I have some of his books from the library and they re very interesting to study.

 

I think Reinhart credits it to someone else in Bread Baker's Apprentice. I'll check my copy when I get home this evening.

It's not essential to use the pineapple juice, it just encourages the right bacteria to grow in the acidic conditions. If you're making your starter from freshly milled wheat berries I don't think you'll have a problem getting a beautiful sourdough starter from that, as it's the microorganisms in the berries (or in the flour) that create the starter - the idea that it's yeast and bacteria from the air is nice but probably wrong. Or at least, mostly wrong. I'm sure some drift in there, but practically none compared to the numbers that are already in the flour.

[rotuts]

Im going to do this soon myself

 

w rye

 

heritage , of course !

[AAQuesada]

15 hours ago, Paul Bacino said:

I have that very same grinder.  I haven't got into using it yet.

 

Thanks for posting on this maybe it will put a fire in the behind--   My plan : I have a pasta extruder that I plan to use it on.   Not much of a baker at least for now

 

Thanks  PB

I wanted to mention that Paul Bertolli's book Cooking by hand talks a lot about grinding flour for pasta. Older book, but still excellent

[Shelby]

Today was going to be a mill/bread day but my washer broke and I had to spend the morning figuring out what the heck was going on. I'm all fixed up now, but I'm kinda pooped.

 

I fed my starter again yesterday about 5.  It looks really good right after that, but then it fizzles.  It still smells good and it has bubbles, but it doesn't double in size like the instructions say.  I'm not giving up yet.

[keychris]

4 hours ago, Shelby said:

I fed my starter again yesterday about 5.  It looks really good right after that, but then it fizzles.  It still smells good and it has bubbles, but it doesn't double in size like the instructions say.  I'm not giving up yet.

 

my sourdough starter (from freshly ground wheat) took a week before it showed any bubbles, then another week before it was able to be fed daily. I made one from raisins that took three weeks to start. Definitely don't give up yet!

[Shelby]

34 minutes ago, keychris said:

 

my sourdough starter (from freshly ground wheat) took a week before it showed any bubbles, then another week before it was able to be fed daily. I made one from raisins that took three weeks to start. Definitely don't give up yet!

Oh thank you thank you thank you.  I needed this.  Mine has bubbles at times and then looks like it's dead .   I will keep going.  

 

[kayb]

It is indeed a handsome machine. I'll be really curious to hear of the taste difference in bread made with freshly milled flour.

 

[keychris]

On 6/12/2019 at 8:32 AM, keychris said:

 

I think Reinhart credits it to someone else in Bread Baker's Apprentice. I'll check my copy when I get home this evening.

 

My mistake, the reference was in Whole Grain Breads. See attached.

 

[Shelby]

Got my pineapple juice and my vital wheat gluten today.  Tomorrow the games begin  

[rotuts]

Oooooooooo!

 

Ooooooooooooooooo!

[Shelby]

Ok.  Using the pineapple juice method, I now have two more starters going:

 

These little cans are perfect since you only use 1/4 of a cup per each.

 

 

These both should be ready to use by next Wednesday.

 

 

[keychris]

15 hours ago, Shelby said:

Ok.  Using the pineapple juice method, I now have two more starters going:

 

 

These both should be ready to use by next Wednesday.

 

Don't be surprised or disheartened if they're not. It takes time to build up the microbial population to a level where they can do what they need to in bread.

 

Edit to add: I just read the article you linked, if you're going to be making bread, get used to working by weight, not volume. It's much more reliable in getting consistent results. Have a read of the EG kitchen scale manifesto if you haven't already seen it

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by keychris (log)

[Barrytm]

Shelby,  first congrats ,  that is a nice mill.  Also,  I think you are going to love the taste of bread made from home milled fresh wheat.

 

You must really like diving into the deep end.  Most people who make bread in something other than a bread machine use commercial yeast, the results are much more predictable.  Also,  most use commercial flour,  using home milled 100% wheat is a bit harder - the window for proper fermentation and proper final proof is much smaller than with white flour, and even when you nail it ,  it is difficult if not impossible to get the same rise.  As if those two challenges were not enough, you are throwing in ancient grains, which adds another layer of complexity.

 

My suggestion is you stay with one flour for the first several bakes so you can iron out the issues with whatever recipe you decide to follow.  I like winter white, though others prefer red spring.  Again, the advice above is correct, for yeasted breads, you want gluten development which generally means avoid the soft wheat berries, though they are good for muffin breads, like banana bread, and I use 50% hard and 50% soft for pasta and like the results.

 

As to the starter, the advice you have received is correct - it takes a few weeks for your starter to develop enough to make a good bread.  The pineapple juice is a great trick in that it weeds out the bad stuff.  If you know anyone near you that makes sourdough, I am sure they will give you some starter.  If you need some, I , or others, will mail you dried starter.   Once it is up and going, you will have more than you need.

 

A  scale is a must, and dive right into grams -  once you get used to measuring in grams, it is dead simple to increase or decrease the size of a loaf or manipulate the ratios,  unlike dealing in pounds and ounces.  

 

If you end up milling more than you need, store the leftovers in the freezer in a freezer bag, it stays very fresh.

 

Although you have already made a major investment in the mill, you will also want to consider how to bake it.  If you want sandwich loafs, then regular bread pans are fine.  If you want a rustic loaf - boule or batard, you will want to look into what to proof the loaf in, and what to bake it.  Many of us, especially those with gas ovens, try to bake in an enclosed container for part of the bake to keep in the steam and encourage good oven spring.  Dutch ovens are a good option, so is a combo cooker, or even a metal bowl inverted over a baking stone.

 

One of the cheapest investments, because it is free, is to start to spreadsheet your recipes and keep accurate notes -  obviously you want to track the amount of each ingredient, but you also want to try the time and method of kneading, whether you did an autolyse, and temp in bulk ferment  ( using straight sided containers, and a rubber band or post-it when you first put the dough in it will help you keep track of how much it increased in size during bulk ferment ) and time and temp in final proof.  All of things impact the taste and texture of the bread.  If you document each bake, and keep track of the changes in your process, it will go a long way towards letting you get consistent results. 

 

I am not familiar with the books you posted - but have read Vanessa Kambell's ebook on Sourdough when it showed up on Kindle at a great price.  After a while if you decide you are really addicted to bread making,  Bread by Jeffrey Hamelman is a must - there is very little on sourdough, but a ton on what it takes to make great bread, and many good recipes. 

 

Finally, don't get too caught up in the photos you see online.  Most people only post a photo when the loaf comes out looking great.  I have made very many loaves that were under proofed or over proofed, and so did not look ideal, but still tasted great . 

 

[Shelby]

@Barrytm  Thank you so much for all of the great advice.  I definitely am jumping into the deep end of the pool......the good thing is that I don't know what I don't know lol.  I have a wonderful scale and I definitely understand why weighing is better than measuring by cup amounts so I'll stick to recipes that go by weight for sure.  I'm keeping notes, too.  Plus, I am going to document it all here.  And yes, I've yet to see anything but a perfect loaf of bread in all my looking around the internet.  I'm definitely of the mind that it doesn't have to look perfect as long as it tastes good.

 

First, I'll get the bad news out of the way.

 

This happened:

 

 

And then the next day it was extremely watery and did NOT smell good at all.  So, it's back to square one.  I'm going to start another today and use bottled water instead of my tap/well water and see if that makes a difference.

 

My two pineapple guys are doing wonderful, though.  I'm supposed to feed them today so I'll do that in a bit.

 

Annnnnd, on to the bread.

 

While I'm waiting for a starter to work, I decided to go ahead and bake using yeast and vital wheat gluten.  

 

I baked two different loaves yesterday.

 

Just for fun I wanted to try making the No Knead Instant Pot bread using 100% Hard Red Winter Wheat berries (I've only used that kind so far in order to better be able to keep track of results).  I've made this several times using AP flour and we like it.  I followed the recipe exactly as written, using whey, except I added 2 T. of Vital Wheat Gluten.

 

Here it is after the 3 hours in the IP

Here it is after resting for the 30 mins before baking

It looks and feels very much like the dough I've made using AP flour so I felt like this wasn't going to be a complete failure.

 

Out of the oven

 

 

This is a rustic bread and using the 100% made it even more so.  We really liked the flavor.  It's like bread, only better    Next time I feel like I should add a bit more liquid/whey and reduce the baking time by 5 minutes.  It didn't rise quite as much as it does using the AP flour so maybe those changes will help.

 

The second loaf is a recipe I stumbled upon from Serious Eats for 100% whole wheat bread and it uses the cuisinart to mix the dough.  It's a sandwich bread that you bake in a loaf pan.

 

My feelings from the beginning were that the dough needed more flour, but I stuck to the recipe because I didn't trust myself.  I still don't know if that was what was wrong (I weighed all the ingredients and followed the recipe exactly like it's written) but it didn't rise.  Here is the dough after the autolyse and a run in the cuisinart

After this, you let it double in size, which it did (forgot to take a picture) and then you're supposed to shape it and put it in a loaf pan.  There was no shaping, more like pouring.  Then you're supposed to let it rise until it's 2 1/2 inches above the pan in the center.  That didn't happen.  It sat there for 3 hours and barely got to the top of the lip.  I was sure this would be a complete failure, but I went ahead and baked it in the Steam Girl (cuisinart steam oven) --figured the bread setting might help a bit.  

 

After baking:

It looks like banana bread lol.  Was very difficult to get out of the pan, even though I greased it.

I have to say--I'm impressed.  Even though it doesn't look pretty, this bread is good, ya'll.  It's not heavy--you can see the holes. The flavor is so good.  Again, it's like bread, only better.  It made excellent toast this morning.

 

 

So, all-in-all, I'm pleased.  Yes, I have a lot of learning and experimenting to do, but, on my first two tries, I didn't make bread door-stops.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Shelby (log)

[ElsieD]

@Shelby  Following this with great interest.....

[rotuts]

Im looking forward to your experience using the two starters you are making w the PJ

 

and no other yeast

 

I do like the look of that toast !

[Barrytm]

Shelby,  nice work.   I love the phrase - " its like bread, only better"   Definitely my experience as well. 

[rotuts]

Ive also taken the plunge ;

 

 

Im hoping to start a heritage rye PA starter tomorrow.

 

I have a chronic problem w pantry moths.  I use the traps

 

no moths for 6 months , and I noticed a few in one of the traps

 

Im going to have to use the shop vac system of keeping the mill clean

 

Ido have a chamber vac so Ill use that to keep the grains sealed

 

and a plastic container from The Contianer Store that has a rubber seal around the rim

 

where I can then keep the grains in their own sealed bags

 

I like the vids at breadopia

 

I plan to use my 11 cup  Cuisi Prep+  ( siill available new ! ) for the major work after autolysis.

 

I hope to use a rye starter for  sourdough sandwich bread

 

I also got a 1/2 share in a CSA grain share , but that wont come until next year.

Edited June 16, 2019 by rotuts (log)

[Shelby]

@rotuts  I couldn't be more excited that you got a mill!  

[Okanagancook]

Also watching with interest.  My DH is the bread maker in the house.  We don’t eat a lot of bread but what you have made so far looks very tasty.

[blue_dolphin]

I'm also interestedly following along.  I've been buying whole grain flours from a local place (Roan Mills) that grows the grains then mills it locally at their combined mill/bakery.   

I've been using their Sonora/Red Fife blend for easy stuff like pita, focaccia and English muffins (also used their rye in the English muffins).  The straight Sonora flour is good for pastry or biscuits.  

Since I can buy freshly milled grains, I don't need to get into that yet but I'd like to branch out into baking some other breads - I've been buying from them since they do such a good job!

 

3 hours ago, Shelby said:

Next time I feel like I should add a bit more liquid/whey and reduce the baking time by 5 minutes.

The general guidance the Roan Mills people gave me when adapting a white flour recipe to whole grain was to increase the liquid by 15%.  Of course, I don't have enough experience to know anything myself 🙃

 

3 hours ago, Shelby said:

It's like bread, only better  

Love this!