Crazy and Inaccurate Claims Roll On in the Cookware and Food Industry...

[boilsover]

It's bad enough correcting common zombie cookware misconceptions.  But when a legitimate food expert like Mark Bittman spouts complete nonsense about all tinned cookware containing lead, it's downright dismaying.  Likewise when salespeople and companies tell that eternal doozer:  "Cast iron heats evenly."

 

The winner for 2019--so far--however, has to be Florence Fabricant, New York Times columnist and author of 12 cookbooks.  In her January 22, 2019 issue of her column "Front Burner", Ms. Fabricant gushes over the carbon steel skillet made by Made In.  Among other reasons to recommend it:

 

"It’s a good conductor (it can be used on an induction cooktop) and has heft..."

 

What?  Surely Fabricant knows carbon steel, like any steel, is not only *not* a good conductor, it's a *terrible* one.   In fact it's the worst metal pans are made of.  If she doesn't, she needs to take a remedial physics course.

 

And perhaps she was under a deadline to push this out, but what gives with the non sequitur explanatory parenthetical?  Does she really believe that good conductivity and induction compatibility are the same or even closely related?

 

Doubtless, someone, somewhere has already taken this nonsense for Gospel and spread it around.  "Oh, boy!  I can't wait for my new conductive steel skillet to be delivered!" 

Do you see, Larry?  Do you see what happens when you make stuff up?

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/22/dining/made-in-carbon-steel-skillet.html

 

Edited January 27, 2019 by Smithy
Adjusted title for focus...then corrected misspelling in new title (log)

[heidih]

and Google will put it up as a primary source when the keywords are entered....

[Alex]

I'm with you, @boilsover. I *still* see chefs quoted about how searing a piece meat seals in its juices or how flaming something burns off all the alcohol.

 

It's like that in many (most?) professions, I guess. Someone learns something early on and doesn't bother questioning it, much less keep up with new knowledge. I was a college prof, and it galled me no end when colleagues would resist, or even refuse, to alter their less-effective (or ineffective) teaching and assessment methods and adopt some solid research-based ones. 

[boilsover]

5 hours ago, Alex said:

I'm with you, @boilsover. I *still* see chefs quoted about how searing a piece meat seals in its juices or how flaming something burns off all the alcohol.

 

It's like that in many (most?) professions, I guess. Someone learns something early on and doesn't bother questioning it, much less keep up with new knowledge. I was a college prof, and it galled me no end when colleagues would resist, or even refuse, to alter their less-effective (or ineffective) teaching and assessment methods and adopt some solid research-based ones. 

 

Maybe so, but who taught Ms. Fabricant that steel is a good thermal conductor?  And wouldn't there be an editor somewhere at the Grey Lady who looks at this stuff?

[Martin Fisher]

Look at it—look at it closely.

It's basically an advertisement, not an unbiased article.

Do you really expect her/them to say it's a poor conductor??? 

How in hell is the Old Gray Lady going to make money dispensing truth???

[JoNorvelleWalker]

1 hour ago, boilsover said:

 

Maybe so, but who taught Ms. Fabricant that steel is a good thermal conductor?  And wouldn't there be an editor somewhere at the Grey Lady who looks at this stuff?

 

I saw that article and wondered.  Seriously, it's no secret, the Times laid off their copy editors a while back.

 

[cdh]

Just to be a devil's advocate, isn't it accurate to say that carbon steel is an excellent conductor of magnetic fields, and on an induction plate should be an awesome thing to cook in?  It's not the shiny stainless nickel/chrome steel that doesn't do magnetism...

[Martin Fisher]

2 minutes ago, cdh said:

Just to be a devil's advocate, isn't it accurate to say that carbon steel is an excellent conductor of magnetic fields, and on an induction plate should be an awesome thing to cook in?  It's not the shiny stainless nickel/chrome steel that doesn't do magnetism...

 

That would make it highly inductive, right?

[gfweb]

One hears the statements to the effect that " cast iron holds on to heat well and is highly conductive" .

 

[boilsover]

46 minutes ago, cdh said:

Just to be a devil's advocate, isn't it accurate to say that carbon steel is an excellent conductor of magnetic fields, and on an induction plate should be an awesome thing to cook in?  It's not the shiny stainless nickel/chrome steel that doesn't do magnetism...

 

Well, in a word, no. 

 

First, all of the action in a cooking appliance's induction field happens very near the surface nearest the Ceran.  Past that "skin depth", it's just sluggish old steel left to (poorly) conduct heat.  This is why those ferromagnetic bottom disks bonded onto pans of all sorts are exceedingly thin.  The same thing happens with cast iron; it too is a poor conductor (but not as bad as steel)--anything below the skin depth is a waste, except for blunting the induced heat.

 

Second, this is not conduction.

 

Third,  virtually all induction appliances rely on a single, central, doughnut-shaped coil.  With a poor conductor like steel or iron, you can actually see the doughnut-shaped pattern of the coil translating a corresponding hotspot through the bottom of the pan.  There isn't much problem moving the heat straight up (the distance is very small), but moving it laterally across the pan floor is harder when the material resists.  Without conductive material to move the heat away, it exacerbates this halo effect, and even if you manage not to scorch the food, the heat will be uneven.  It is not uncommon to have >50F differences between directly above the doughnut and further out near the wall.  To counter this propensity, makers are incorporating very thick aluminum exterior disks or clad cores.

 

"It's not the shiny stainless nickel/chrome steel that doesn't do magnetism..."  I'm unsure of your meaning here, but both carbon steel and ferritic stainless steels "do magnetism".  400 Series stainless steels work just as well on induction as do carbon steels; that's what the makers use, and not just because carbon steel rusts.

 

Induction may be considered awesome to cook on, but it's largely for reasons only indirectly bearing on cooking.

Edited January 27, 2019 by boilsover (log)

[Alex]

15 hours ago, boilsover said:

 

Maybe so, but who taught Ms. Fabricant that steel is a good thermal conductor?  And wouldn't there be an editor somewhere at the Grey Lady who looks at this stuff?

 

13 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

I saw that article and wondered.  Seriously, it's no secret, the Times laid off their copy editors a while back.

 

 

Two recent stories about the state of print journalism -- including, of course, the pruning of fact checkers and copy editors.

The New Yorker 

The Washington Post 

[cdh]

Interesting. 

 

So do the Europeans follow this methodology for pan design?  They've been using induction for much longer and more widely than here.  Are there EU-market pans that are optimized like you suggest, with a thin magnetically active layer wrapped around thicker high-thermal-conductivity layers?  I've not paid much attention to multi-metal pan design recently, and have no idea whether such things would even  turn up in the US market if they were made.  

[JoNorvelleWalker]

1 hour ago, cdh said:

Interesting. 

 

So do the Europeans follow this methodology for pan design?  They've been using induction for much longer and more widely than here.  Are there EU-market pans that are optimized like you suggest, with a thin magnetically active layer wrapped around thicker high-thermal-conductivity layers?  I've not paid much attention to multi-metal pan design recently, and have no idea whether such things would even  turn up in the US market if they were made.  

 

Fissler with their Cookstar bottom comes to mind.

 

[boilsover]

6 hours ago, cdh said:

So do the Europeans follow this methodology for pan design?  They've been using induction for much longer and more widely than here.  Are there EU-market pans that are optimized like you suggest, with a thin magnetically active layer wrapped around thicker high-thermal-conductivity layers? 

 

Yes.  There is really no Atlantic divide in terms of pan design.  Everyone either bonds on a very thin ferromagnetic disk or makes the full outer layer of their clad from thin ferromagnetic steel.  JoNorvelle has mentioned Fissler, which makes some of the best disk-base designs, as does Paderno (Italy) in their Grand Gourmet line; the Paderno is more restaurant-oriented and can sometimes be had on Euro eBay sites for shockingly little money.  The conductive disks sandwiched between the pan body and the mnagnetowafer need to be quite thick to ameliorate that thermal "doughnut", like >6mm.  As you might imagine, this strategy results in quite a slowing of these pans' responsiveness, so follow your needs. 

 

Demeyere is another top-flite Euro (Belgian/Zwilling German) mark, and somewhat unique in that they mix disk-base and clad constructions even within the same lines.  I consider their Proline 5* skillets to be the best available.  They innovate a lot (which is why I work with them).  I believe no one else uses steel which is alloyed to manipulate the Curie Point, so the ContrilInduc pans will not overheat on induction.  This is a fabulous feature for the aged, forgetful and those who know what PTFE pans can do when overheated.  France's Sitram is getting back in the game

 

In my opinion, the carbon steel fashion has very little to do with induction, although it works acceptably.  The pans are used all over commercially because they are very cheap (far cheaper than Blu, MadeIn, and Daarto ask), easily replaceable, and here's the big boon--they season like a dream to nearly nonstick.  Restaurants can afford stacks of them,  and when single servings are fired on placques, there's no real concern about even heat.        

Edited January 29, 2019 by boilsover (log)

[Vapre]

On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 12:58 PM, boilsover said:

Do you see, Larry?  Do you see what happens when you make stuff up?

 

This is what happens, Larry, when you [find a stranger in the alps].