Baking with Myhrvold's "Modernist Bread: The Art and Science"

[Anna N]

29 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Yes...someplace.

 

Yes. I did answer this upthread somewhat.   3-401. 

[Anna N]

 

 I am not quite sure what to say about these Bahn Mi rolls.  First I found them to be large for something that is supposed to be for one sandwich. 

 

 

 I was not fussy about the crumb. Cotton wool came to mind.  I think the American term is cotton batting? 

 

 I also think I detected that horrible coating that you get inside your mouth after eating certain pastries that got rid of trans fats in favor of something even more disgusting flavourwise. 

 

There is an option to use shortening or lard and I think next time I would try with lard. Pretty sure I know a source for fresh lard. 

 

 I hope someone else makes these and tells me that I don’t know what I’m talking about.  I have had perhaps two Bahn Mi Sandwiches in my life. The only one worth remembering was in Lancaster, Pennsylvania believe it or not.  

 

 Here is another shot of the first two as they came out of the oven. 

 

[Wholemeal Crank]

On 11/28/2017 at 5:31 AM, teonzo said:

 

I don't have the books, but I'm a bit puzzled reading this. If it's made properly then the final jar is not vacuum pulled, they are air-tight closed and pasteurized. Shelf life is longer for this reason. They are not vacuum closed like what happens with a vacuum chamber machine at full force. For example you can put biscotti in a jar, close the cap not tightly so air can escape, put it in a vacuum chamber machine, let it run at maximum, when it's finished you get a tightly closed cap (due to the difference in pressure the cap gets pulled down when the machine let air returns in the chamber) and vacuum (well, almost vacuum) in the jar.

With leavened dough in the jar you still have gas inside the jar, including oxigen. It lasts more because it's air-tight and pasteurized.

 

 

 

Teo

 

So air tight, rather than true vacuum?  I'd really like to see them address this in the book or on their blog, because they've got the equipment to test it. 

 

I've found articles about military standards for canned bread from the 50s that include pH requirements for the finished products, and an reference to an article from Journal of Food Science where this was tested by adding Clostridium to bread being canned or after canning but the limited information in the reference doesn't confirm how it was tested and whether spores survived and grew.  I won't have a chance to get to the library to get my hands on the article for some weeks yet, unfortunately.

[teonzo]

57 minutes ago, Wholemeal Crank said:

So air tight, rather than true vacuum?  I'd really like to see them address this in the book or on their blog, because they've got the equipment to test it. 

 

I would say so. Just think about these 2 questions:

1- how could you get a vacuum in the jar if the tool you are using is an oven?

2- if there was vacuum in the jar, what would happen to the bread when you open the jar and the dough is subjected to a quick change of pressure from 0 bar to 1 bar?

Bread in a jar is akin to jams or preserves, not to sous vide storage.

 

Please notice I don't have Modernist Bread so I don't know what they wrote there.

 

 

 

58 minutes ago, Wholemeal Crank said:

I've found articles about military standards for canned bread from the 50s that include pH requirements for the finished products, and an reference to an article from Journal of Food Science where this was tested by adding Clostridium to bread being canned or after canning but the limited information in the reference doesn't confirm how it was tested and whether spores survived and grew.  I won't have a chance to get to the library to get my hands on the article for some weeks yet, unfortunately

 

This sounds really interesting. If you can share what you find I would be grateful, thanks!

 

 

 

Teo

 

[Chris Hennes]

13 minutes ago, teonzo said:

I would say so. Just think about these 2 questions:

1- how could you get a vacuum in the jar if the tool you are using is an oven?

2- if there was vacuum in the jar, what would happen to the bread when you open the jar and the dough is subjected to a quick change of pressure from 0 bar to 1 bar?

Bread in a jar is akin to jams or preserves, not to sous vide storage.

When you are canning, in an oven or conventionally, you are not ever creating a true vacuum in the sense of a complete absence of any gas phase. As you heat the air and food in the jar, two things happen: the air expands, and some of it gets displaced by water vapor. This removes most of the oxygen from the jar. When it cools back down a seal forms, blocking the re-entry of that oxygen. The headspace is filled with water vapor and the small amount of air that remains. The pressure inside the jar is less than atmospheric pressure (that's why the lid is pressed down and releases when you open the jar), but it's not a vacuum, because even if you created a vacuum it would be quickly filled with water vapor. The interior environment is not totally oxygen-free, but it's pretty close, which is why you might be concerned with botulism. 

 

All that is to say: apparently the bread expands slightly when the jar is opened (the pressure inside was slightly less than 1 atmosphere), but it's not like it explodes. Which would be awesome.

[teonzo]

48 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

The pressure inside the jar is less than atmospheric pressure (that's why the lid is pressed down and releases when you open the jar), but it's not a vacuum, because even if you created a vacuum it would be quickly filled with water vapor. The interior environment is not totally oxygen-free, but it's pretty close, which is why you might be concerned with botulism. 

 

Gas is circulating in the oven, pretty quickly at those temperature. You can't expect the head portion of the jar to be close to oxygen free during cooking, even considering the vapor pressure at those temperatures. Plus you are forgetting all the gas inside the pockets in the dough, which is the most important thing to consider in this case. There's oxigen there too and it's not going away during cooking, otherwise the dough structure would collapse.

 

 

 

49 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

All that is to say: apparently the bread expands slightly when the jar is opened (the pressure inside was slightly less than 1 atmosphere), but it's not like it explodes. Which would be awesome.

 

Urg, I got a cold thrill through my spine reading this...when subjected to a higher external pressure a sponge compresses, not expands. If you have a chamber vacuum machine try putting a slice of bread or a babà or something leavened and with a soft crust (just the dough, without putting it in a bag), then pull your desired vacuum %. If what you wrote was true then the dough should expand when the machine releases 1 bar air inside the chamber. It happens the exact opposite of what you wrote.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[Chris Hennes]

2 minutes ago, teonzo said:

Urg, I got a cold thrill through my spine reading this...when subjected to a higher external pressure a sponge compresses, not expands. If you have a chamber vacuum machine try putting a slice of bread or a babà or something leavened and with a soft crust (just the dough, without putting it in a bag), then pull your desired vacuum %. If what you wrote was true then the dough should expand when the machine releases 1 bar air inside the chamber. It happens the exact opposite of what you wrote.

Yes, you are right - I have no explanation for the Modernist team's report that the bread expands slightly when the seal is released.

[Chris Hennes]

4 minutes ago, teonzo said:

Plus you are forgetting all the gas inside the pockets in the dough, which is the most important thing to consider in this case.

Wouldn't that be mostly carbon dioxide?

[teonzo]

3 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

Yes, you are right - I have no explanation for the Modernist team's report that the bread expands slightly when the seal is released.

 

If they wrote so, then it's simply wrong, unless they changed the laws of physics. This is one of the main reasons why now I'm pretty skeptical about this book set. I expected it to be highly reliable on a scientific level. Which means that some people with strong scientific knowledge should have proof-read the text various times (they should have learned the lesson after all the errors in the first edition of Modernist Cuisine). They can't slip such a basic physics error. Such a thing must raise a huge alarm to the eyes of a person that is proof reading a text. They are not marketing this book set as a series of experimental recipes, they are marketing it as the be-all end-all of scientific explanations on how bread works. Can't expect it to be so if they wrote such things. If someone writes such a thing on a scientific text then he looses all the credit.

If I were Myhrvold I would be kicking major a__es after noticing such a thing (and I suppose he is doing so, considering all the things he does in his life I don't expect he read 100% of the text).

 

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

Wouldn't that be mostly carbon dioxide?

 

Definetely. But there is oxygen too. Gas pockets in doughs are expanded during fermentation, not created. Those pockets are created during mixing, they are little but during formation they contain air (20% oxygen), this is why flour oxidizes the more you mix the dough. Fermentation releases mostly CO2 in those pre-existing pockets, expanding them, adding gas but not kicking away the oxygen that's already there.

Botulism is not a problem with doughs in a jar. Here in Italy this method is used from some years by various pastry chefs, now it's widely spread (I could say it's the latest pastry trend). Before putting something new on sale you need to test it in a laboratory, especially in cases like this. Never heard of botulism troubles from those testings.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[Raamo]

2nd try at Bagels - this time cinnamon raisin bagels!

 

 

I think our yeast needs to be replaced - as they're rather flat.  I proofed them in my steam oven for longer then listed - took forever to get to finger test working, so I think it's just tired old yeast.

 

They did float in Lye bath this time - so that tells me my first attempt needed to proof longer (and 14 hours in the fridge wasn't enough time)

I used up the prior instant yeast - so I was working on the other container we had (which my wife had been using to make bread pre MB)

 

They have the crumb of a bagel and the taste of cinnamon raisin so bagel attempt number 2 was mostly successful 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Raamo (log)

[Kerry Beal]

100% whole wheat version of the sandwich bread.

 

[Anna N]

On 12/2/2017 at 2:25 PM, Anna N said:

I have a question for you people who have read the books from cover to cover. You have right?

 

Have you come across an explanation of what constitutes “medium gluten development”?

 

 For my own purposes I have determined that it is when the dough has attained some extensibility but will not pass the window pane test. Anyone?

 

So the answer to my question is on page 3–89. There are photographs of low, medium and full  gluten  development on this page. 

[Anna N]

On 12/3/2017 at 2:02 PM, Anna N said:

I was not fussy about the crumb. Cotton wool came to mind.  I think the American term is cotton batting? 

Now here is something I find quite peculiar. I knew these would have to go into the bin because I did not like them at all. Three of them got tossed just as they were but the fourth one was not going to fit so I broke it in half. The crumb look so different and had such a different texture that I rather wished I had not binned any of them!   It was this if the crumb had set up overnight.  Now I really will have to make these again. 

 

[Chris Hennes]

@Anna N -- that's really interesting. A bread that is better the next day!

[Anna N]

6 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

@Anna N -- that's really interesting. A bread that is better the next day!

Definitely preliminary presumptions. Hoping to find some lard before I make my second attempt which will definitely not be a fair comparison.  But I don’t want to buy more shortening if there’s a way around it. 

[KennethT]

@Anna NInteresting.  My experiences eating banh mi in Vietnam were that the best ones could be described as having a "light, cotton-y" interior.  But it is also necessary to have a shatteringly crisp, tender crust - like an eggshell.  When you bite into a banh mi sandwich (made with the banh mi bread), that tenderness is essential so the ingredients don't squish out the other end, which would happen if the crust is too chewy (like a French baguette).  Also, the crust needs to be tender so the fact that it is so crisp doesn't end up tearing the roof of your mouth!  One thing to keep in mind are the typical uses of banh mi - either for sandwiches, or for just ripping apart into pieces and dipping into sauces or just eating plain as an accompaniment to grilled fish, snails or chicken.  I've never seen a loaf sliced or toasted or anything like that, not that my experiences are by any means comprehensive!

 

So, from your descriptions, the original texture of the crumb is what is traditional, although once it sets up is more suitable for western uses.  Also, FYI, in Vietnam, the banh mi are typically eaten within hours of being baked.  The busiest banh mi vendors will typically get 2-3 deliveries per day - note that the bakeries themselves do not usually sell retail, but sell wholesale to the vendors who then sell them as is for people to take home (usually eaten soon - not kept overnight), or fill them for sandwiches for immediate consumption.  I would imagine that they would consider a day-old banh mi to be bird or fish food.

[Anna N]

@KennethT

Thanks for the detailed description. It is very similar to others I have read. I don’t think I came within a mile of anything that would pass for your version of a bahn mi roll but I’m prepared to keep trying. It is probably the most unpractical thing for me to pursue. I couldn’t possibly eat four sandwiches in the same day!   But not everything we do need have a practical result. 

[KennethT]

I wonder if it would be possible to par-bake and freeze, or freeze the proofed product just before baking?  That way you could make a batch, but only bake 1 at a time so it's fresh...

[Anna N]

13 minutes ago, KennethT said:

I wonder if it would be possible to par-bake and freeze, or freeze the proofed product just before baking?  That way you could make a batch, but only bake 1 at a time so it's fresh...

 Definitely something to think about if I managed to get them right. 

[chefmd]

@Anna N May be ladies who lunch can go to a Banh Mi place to a point of reference.  

[KennethT]

@chefmdThat's a great idea - but I think they'd have a pretty long lunch.... I've never seen even a close relative of the Viet banh mi outside of Vietnam!  I've tried just about every banh mi place in NYC, and no one comes close - they're all just french baguettes that they warm in the oven or salamander to try to crisp and lighten them... but it's still all wrong.  I've talked with some of teh Viet owners of these places and they say that they just can't get a supply of the bread - seems like no commercial bakery in NY makes them - and don't necessarily deliver all day, forget a few times a day!

[Anna N]

1 hour ago, chefmd said:

@Anna N May be ladies who lunch can go to a Banh Mi place to a point of reference.  

Not much of a place to find good bahn mi.  We have asked around and nobody is rushing in with great recommendations. 

[Kerry Beal]

Jewish Corn Rye. No beer in the house so used a little extra water

 

[Chris Hennes]

Modernist Neapolitan Pizza

Modernist in the sense that it has polydextrose and soy lecithin in it, and its hydration has been rebalanced to bake better at home oven temperatures. I followed the instructions for this first one to the T, with the exception that, learning from @Anna N's experience upthread I kept a vigilant eye on it and pulled it out of the oven after five minutes and thirty seconds, when it reached the doneness level that I prefer. This was baked on a 1/4" baking steel whose temperature was 250°C/482°F when I hit it with the IR thermometer. So presumably my oven is running a bit cool at these high temperatures. I'll have to tweak it next time, I guess.

 

Here are the toppings, ready to go:

 

The dough, stretched (yeah, I need some practice there, it's pretty much a uniform thickness throughout, without the thicker regions at the edges):

 

Topped:

 

Baked:

 

The underside:

 

I'm a big fan of pizza with a thin, crispy crust, which this delivered perfectly. My technique leaves something to be desired, but flavor-wise this pizza was excellent. Obviously I left off the basil, which is not in season where I live.

[Anna N]

@Chris Hennes

 

Very nice. I hope to have some polydextrose within the next week or so and I will give the Modernist pizza a try.