Homemade Broth/Stock lasts how long?

[Soupcon]

On 10/2/2017 at 10:12 AM, ChocoMom said:

I'm so glad this thread exists!!!   I was contemplating what to do with the overabundant supply of soup bones we've got here.  Butchering 2 cows this fall gave us WAYYYY more soup bones than needed.  And, having fallen absolutely in love with my pressure canner, me thinks that is the way to go in dealing with the stock from all the soup bones. 

 

The meat that comes off the bones will get diced up into some beef-barley soup and beef-veggie soup, then pressure canned. But, there is usually so much broth left.  

Might anyone happen to know how long to pressure can broth?  Quart jars---maybe 20 min at 10#?      

 

Thank you all for posting about this.  

 

 

Pressure can broth (chicken or beef) in qt or litre jars at 12 lbs for 25 minutes from the time the canner reaches full pressure.  I used to can stock in qt or litre jars but found I was wasting too much stock so I started to can in pint or 16 oz jars and found I had less leftover stock to refrigerate or waste.

 

[IEATRIO]

I do two things to extend the life of my stock.  First, I make it in a pressure cooker, which destroys bacteria more thoroughly than a pot, given the high temps and vacuum.  Second, I don't trim the fat from the chicken, and dispense the cook stocked into Ball jars so that a fat cap forms on top, effectively sealing the stock from the environment.  I find that by doing these two things, I get two weeks in the fridge easily, and sometimes more. 

[gfweb]

54 minutes ago, IEATRIO said:

I do two things to extend the life of my stock.  First, I make it in a pressure cooker, which destroys bacteria more thoroughly than a pot, given the high temps and vacuum.  Second, I don't trim the fat from the chicken, and dispense the cook stocked into Ball jars so that a fat cap forms on top, effectively sealing the stock from the environment.  I find that by doing these two things, I get two weeks in the fridge easily, and sometimes more. 

Small quibble...pressure cookers are under pressure, not a vacuum. And vacuums are not sterilizing

[IEATRIO]

10 minutes ago, gfweb said:

 

16 minutes ago, gfweb said:

Small quibble...pressure cookers are under pressure, not a vacuum. And vacuums are not sterilizing

 

As it creates pressure the cooker first forces all of the air out of the vessel, then those valves close and the unit goes to 15psi.  So at full pressure there is no air in the vessel, and the stock is sterilized from the temperature.  Unlike an open pot, there is no way for contaminants to find their way into a locked pressure cooker.  In my experience, pressure cooked stock lasts much longer than conventionally cooked stock.  

[gfweb]

@IEATRIO No debating that pressure cooked stock ought to last longer.

 

But it still isn't a vacuum in there if its under pressure. It may be relatively oxygen-free, but it isn't a vacuum, and even if it were that is not antibacterial.

[kayb]

On 9/20/2017 at 3:57 PM, Katie Meadow said:

Okay, I don't even know if this is a dumb question. I've been making stocks and broths for a zillion years and can do it in my sleep, although I don't. One of the first things I remember learning was never to let the stock come to a boil, always keep it at a gentle simmer. The above advocates of reduction for storage benefits talk about boiling to reduce the stock. How does that affect the final flavor or quality? Or is no-boiling just an old wives' tale? And how much reduction are we talking about? Do you turn a quart in to an ice cube? If so, I really could do it in my sleep, since who wants to babysit a pot of disappearing chicken soup for hours and hours? I just don't think I could stand to watch all my loving patience go up in steam!

I have taken to making my stock in the Instant Pot (180 minutes high pressure). I pull the solids, strain it, put it back in the washed pot, and run it through two saute cycles (20 minutes each? 30? I forget), which reduces it by half. Freeze it in one-cup portions in freezer bags, laid flat and all the possible air expressed. Works well for me.

 

I'm about to accumulate enough jars I could can it (my stepmother loaded me up last time I was home), but my canning shelves are about full with veggies, pickles, jams and jellies.

[Katie Meadow]

@kayb Sounds like a good solution. I have no IP. My latest possible solution to making room in the freezer is to dump all the cylindrical mismatched containers I have collected and invest in some good quality square/rectangular ones.

[dcarch]

20 hours ago, IEATRIO said:

As it creates pressure the cooker first forces all of the air out of the vessel,

 

Is that true?

I am not sure.

dcarch

[gfweb]

2 hours ago, dcarch said:

 

Is that true?

I am not sure.

dcarch

As the water boils it will de-gas. So those once dissolved gasses will be in the pot along with water vapor. 

[dcarch]

44 minutes ago, gfweb said:

As the water boils it will de-gas. So those once dissolved gasses will be in the pot along with water vapor. 

Right. There is a relationship between temperature, pressure, water vapor and air. There is always air and water vapor mixed. You can't drive out all the air in a pressure cooker.

 

dcarch

 

 

[IEATRIO]

13 hours ago, dcarch said:

 

Is that true?

I am not sure.

dcarch

 

10 hours ago, gfweb said:

As the water boils it will de-gas. So those once dissolved gasses will be in the pot along with water vapor. 

 

It is true, and especially facilitated by the design of the Fissler.  As the water temperature rises, a one way valve in the handle mechanism allows the air in the pot to escape.  Once the air in the pot escapes, the valve closes.  Many users on the Amazon site reviewing the unit are actually alarmed at the escape of this air, and think that they have a bad valve, but this is by design.  If one were to press the release at this point, air would "whoosh" back into the valve to fill the vacuum.  With the air (or almost all of it) out of the pot, higher temperatures are possible.  For illustrative purposes, another device which operates under the same principles is an iSi siphon, which blows the air out of a filled unit (that is half filled with liquid) with the first cartridge, so that the pressure on the second cartridge can be applied to the liquid, and not to the air.

 

gfweb's observation that water vapor is released from the "boiling" of the liquid in the pressure cooker misses that the high pressure prevents a real rolling boil (even at temps which are above the boiling point at sea level), and more importantly that water vapor increases approximately 1600 times its density at sea level (.96 grams/cm2) so only a tiny amount fills the empty head space in a 5 or so liter pot when the unit is at pressure.  

 

This is not technically an anti-septic process, but it leaves very much less exposure to atmospheric contaminants than an open pot, leaving less to grow as the stock ages.

 

 

[dcarch]

I don't believe so, according to the law of physics (as I understand it) .

 

Air and water vapor under typical situations, including inside a pressure cooker, are always mixed in exact constant proportions based on temperature and pressure.  The air coming out of the pressure cooker is not just air, and the remaining water vapor inside the pressure cooker is not just water vapor. When they say air humidity is 100%, all that means is that the water vapor in the air at that pressure and temperature has reached it max saturation proportion relative to air. It does not mean that there is no air. As a matter of fact, the same amount of air molecules is still there.

Think salt water solution. there is a variable % of salt that can be dissolved in water , depending on temperature. When you reach 100% saturation, it does not mean there is no water in the solution. Interestingly you can add salt to water up to 100% saturation without increasing the volume of the mixture.

 

Also, water vapor is not visible. Steam is no longer vapor, it is water droplets you can see.

 

Even "pure" water has air in it. That also is a function of temperature and pressure.

 

dcarch

Edited October 11, 2017 by dcarch (log)

[IEATRIO]

46 minutes ago, dcarch said:

I don't believe so, according to the law of physics (as I understand it) .

Air and water vapor under typical situations, including inside a pressure cooker, are always mixed in exact constant proportions based on temperature and pressure.  The air coming out of the pressure cooker is not just air, and the remaining water vapor inside the pressure cooker is not just water vapor. When they say air humidity is 100%, all that means is that the water vapor in the air at that pressure and temperature has reached it max saturation proportion relative to air. It does not mean that there is no air. As a matter of fact, the same amount of air molecules is still there.

Think salt water solution. there is a variable % of salt that can be dissolved in water , depending on temperature. When you reach 100% saturation, it does not mean there is no water in the solution. Interestingly you can add salt to water up to 100% saturation without increasing the volume of the mixture.

Also, water vapor is not visible. Steam is no longer vapor, it is water droplets you can see.

 

dcarch

 

You are mixing up your physical properties.  The same amount of air molecules are not still in the pot -- they have been reduced to an amount approaching (but not reaching) zero.  Saturation is not at play because we are not forcing the air into the liquid, and the process of expansion is non-linear so that the air can escape before it has an opportunity to be forced into solution.  We know this, because if it were not so, we would have bubbles in our stock as the air comes out of solution -- which from all of our observations just doesn't happen.  First the atmosphere is reduced, and with the new expansion space, the water can undergo phase transition and occupy the empty pot.  Given the nature of water molecules to expand 1600 times its space at room temperature, less than a thimble full will occupy the entirety of what is likely to be less than 5 liters of headspace.  Also, we haven't yet discussed that this less than a thimble full of vapor is just that -- gaseous H20 -- and any solid contaminants will not sublimate (so that the temps can render them safe).  

 

If you doubt it, you should make two batches of stock, conventionally and in a pressure cooker.  I guarantee that the pressure cooker stock will last quite a bit longer.

 

[dcarch]

3 minutes ago, IEATRIO said:

The same amount of air molecules are not still in the pot -- they have been reduced to an amount approaching (but not reaching) zero. 

 

Therefore, we are in agreement. I was only questioning your following statement, :

 

"---As it creates pressure the cooker first forces all of the air out of the vessel,----"

dcarch

[Shalmanese]

11 hours ago, dcarch said:

I don't believe so, according to the law of physics (as I understand it) .

 

Air and water vapor under typical situations, including inside a pressure cooker, are always mixed in exact constant proportions based on temperature and pressure.  The air coming out of the pressure cooker is not just air, and the remaining water vapor inside the pressure cooker is not just water vapor. When they say air humidity is 100%, all that means is that the water vapor in the air at that pressure and temperature has reached it max saturation proportion relative to air. It does not mean that there is no air. As a matter of fact, the same amount of air molecules is still there.

Think salt water solution. there is a variable % of salt that can be dissolved in water , depending on temperature. When you reach 100% saturation, it does not mean there is no water in the solution. Interestingly you can add salt to water up to 100% saturation without increasing the volume of the mixture.

 

Also, water vapor is not visible. Steam is no longer vapor, it is water droplets you can see.

 

Even "pure" water has air in it. That also is a function of temperature and pressure.

 

dcarch

 

 

This is incorrect. This would occur if the pressure cooker were in equilibrium with the surroundings but it's not. Pressure cookers contain a one way valve. If it starts with N molecules of air inside of the vessel and then vents some mixture of air and water vapor, then logically, there must now be less than N molecules of air remaining inside of the vessel and so the air pressure is lower. Only the water vapor gets replenished so as you continue to vent, the proportion of air gets lower and lower. You never reach absolutely 0 molecules of air inside of a pressure vessel but you get close enough to not matter.

 

Thats why all good pressure canning instructions have a detailed section at the start on how to properly clear out the headspace. Air in the headspace at a given PSI causes lower boiling temperatures, resulting in possibly improperly canned food.

[dcarch]

23 minutes ago, Shalmanese said:

You never reach absolutely 0 molecules of air inside of a pressure vessel but you get close enough to not matter.

 

That is exactly what I was trying to say (see above), that you can't get all the air out.

dcarch

 

 

[Shalmanese]

44 minutes ago, dcarch said:

 

That is exactly what I was trying to say (see above), that you can't get all the air out.

dcarch

 

 

 

No, you said the same amount of air molecules are still in there which is demonstrably false.

[dcarch]

3 minutes ago, Shalmanese said:

 

No, you said the same amount of air molecules are still in there which is demonstrably false.

 

You have completely misunderstood what I was saying. In trying to explain the meaning of humidity in regular air that we breath, I was saying in a given volume, % of humidity will not displace quantity of air molecules, until it goes beyond saturation. Just like salt dissolving in water will not change the volume of water or the quantity of water molecules. 

 

dcarch

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I had a bit less than a liter of bone stock left over from a recent or not so recent curry.  The stock had been a while in the refrigerator so I pressure canned it.

 

And I'm still trying to finish the curry.