The Bread Topic (2016–)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

This week's bread.

 

 

 

Yes, I was wearing my new Rough Linen apron.  It worked!  The flour I spilled went down my jeans and moccasins.  Not a speck despoiled the pinafore.

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by JoNorvelleWalker
Spelling (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

This week's bread.*

 

 

 

 

*I get to repeat myself.  The horror was I almost ate it before I took the picture.

 

[Ann_T]

@JoNorvelleWalkerYou always get such a beautiful golden crust.

 

Tonight's bake.

 

Fed my starter Saturday morning and made a Biga.   Saturday night it went into a batch of dough and into the fridge

until this morning.   

 

Baked 8 small sourdough baguettes.    In order to get the benefit of the steam and not take forever to bake I started each baguette in the 

steam oven on the steam bake and after 10 minutes I transferred the baguette to a stone in  the Oster Oven.  Was able to bake the eight loaves in 80 minutes.  

ETA:  Crumb Shot

Edited April 16, 2019 by Ann_T (log)

[Ann_T]

On 4/10/2019 at 12:11 PM, ptw1953 said:

@Ann_T

 

Stunning, absolutely stunning! That is what Scottish morning rolls should look like...

Thanks @ptw1953.

[Jim D.]

In the interest of preventing health issues from blood glucose levels, I developed an entirely whole wheat sandwich loaf, but the results are quite undependable, so I'm posting in the hope that someone may have some hints.

 

The liquid is 20g butter, 100g skim milk, 300g water, 2 tsp. salt, and 1 Tbsp. Splenda, heated to 98-100F.

 

The flour mix is 200g KA regular whole wheat flour, 390g KA white whole wheat flour, and 2 1/2 tsp. instant dry yeast.

 

I have learned to mix the liquids and flours and let them sit for 1/2 hour to soften the wheat (so I have read). Then I mix in the Kitchen Aid until the dough is smooth and let it rise. It looks good to this point, though I am never sure when the rise is complete. I don't knead it again but fold it a few times, then press it into a loaf pan. I let it rise again. Usually it rises at least an inch above the sides of the pan, sometimes higher. Then it goes into a 425F oven for 5 minutes, then 350F for 30 minutes more. Here is the issue:  Sometimes (less than 50% of the time) it rises beautifully high, makes a tasty, medium-textured bread, large enough that one slice is sufficient for a sandwich. Other times, however, it falls in the oven to be more or less even with the sides of the pan. The taste is still good, but of course the texture is dense, and the size of the loaf dictates cutting two slices for a decent sandwich.

 

I know that whole wheat is more unforgiving to work with than white flour, but I am puzzled by the fact that sometimes this bread turns out to be just what I want, but most times, it looks like a poorly risen pound cake. Any suggestions would be most welcome.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Jim D. (log)

[AAQuesada]

This answer is not really what you are looking for but maybe it will be helpful anyway.

 

My suggestion is that if you have access to heirloom whole wheat flour to make the switch. Modern wheat varieties were developed to have a bran/germ that are easier to machine separate  (ie hardier) so when they are mixed back in they can damage your care fully developed gluten structure. 

 

with heirloom varieties that were never sifted/separated to begin with this is less of an issue and you do higher  % of WW with more consistency. 

 

Good luck!

Edited April 16, 2019 by AAQuesada (log)

[Isabelle Prescott]

May I suggest you are letting it rise too long in the pan before baking it.  Once the gluten has reached its peak of expansion it will deflate, hence the bread will fall.  I find its better to let it rise too little rather than too long.  You can also add some vital wheat gluten to you flour mixture.  I do when I'm making whole wheat bread to insure it doesn't crumble when sliced.  Also, I bake my bread at 425 degrees for 30 minutes.

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Isabelle Prescott
correct spelling (log)

[shain]

25 minutes ago, Isabelle Prescott said:

May I suggest you are letting it rise too long in the pan before baking it.  Once the gluten has reached its peak of expansion it will deflate, hence the bread will fall.  I find its better to let it rise too little rather than too long. 

 

This was my diagnosis as well.

[Jim D.]

Thanks for those suggestions. How can I tell when the bread has completed its second rise?  For years I read that when it does NOT spring back readily, it goes into the oven. More recently I saw somewhere that it must spring back slowly to be ready. The times this recipe has produced the loaf I like, it has risen a couple of inches above the rim of the pan, and the "spring back" test has varied a great deal. I don't know whether this is relevant, but those times when it does end up the way I want, the loaf often has a hole in the center, sometimes small, sometimes larger. It doesn't ruin the loaf for my purposes, but I think this may be a sign of overproofing.

[keychris]

hole in the middle indicates not enough gluten development (no network of gluten to trap the air) and over-proving. Bread can be as fickle as chocolate

[Isabelle Prescott]

How long do you let it mix in your KitchenAid?  I time it for 7 minutes on medium speed after all the flour has been added so the gluten is well developed.  After I shape it into a round ball and place it in a greased bowl I let it rise until its about doubled in bulk before punching it down and shaping it into a loaf. I heat a measuring cup of water in the microwave for 2 minutes and then place the bowl which I cover with saran wrap and a towel in the microwave to rise.  It can take from 45 to 60 minutes to rise. 

 

And I don't let it get much past the top of the pan once its been made into a loaf (maybe 2 inches at the most). It can take about 45 minutes.

The amount of flour varies depending on the humidity in the air and each bag of flour is different depending on how and where it was grown and the amount of moisture in it.  Its a little guessing game each time, so I go by the feel of the dough.  I've been baking bread since I was 21 and I'm now almost 84 so I've learn from my mistakes.

[shain]

The poking test is not very reliable, especially with high hydration doughs. You want it to still spring back, slowly. Generally, I find the look of the dough to be the best indicator, but this requires some experience with the specific recipe. It should have risen lightly and seem a bit relaxed, yet still have a tight surface.

Always err on under proofing. 

[Okanagancook]

Pita breads.  Most of them puffed.  The very thought of eating those "cardboardie" commercial pita breads was the inspiration this morning.  Also made some hummus and baba ghanouj to go with.  The BG was made with a jar of roasted/pureed eggplants which really saved time.  They were quite smoky

 

.

[kayb]

Jealous. I never get that good a "puff" on my pita. What's your secret?

 

[Okanagancook]

I don't know @kayb.  I read a recipe that said you must rest the rolled out pitas for about 15 minutes before baking to ensure a puff.....I proved that theory wrong to day as they weren't rested.

Then I thought well, maybe it's the thickness of the pita that makes it puff.  In this batch, my first ones were quite thick and did not puff as well as the ones I rolled thinner...so maybe it's that.

Getting the cooking surface really hot also is important.  I used my steel plate with the oven at 450F, heated up for 30 minutes then I put the broiler on for another 10 minutes to get the plate hot...I put it in the middle of the oven.

The dough was a lovely consistency...a little tacky so maybe it's a more moist dough.  I tried rolling them out without flour then with flour and both puffed.

Sorry ☹️

Just play with them.

Someone posted in the last two months about their pita bread experiences...maybe they can chime in.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

In the refrigerator I have 200 g of five day old French lean dough.  It was supposed to have been a pizza.  My guess is the dough is too far gone for pizza.  Any suggestions what I could make?  Or should I pitch it?

 

[Ann_T]

 

 

First batch of bagels just out of the oven.

 

Smoked Salmon and cream cheese on the menu tonight. 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

This week's bread...

 

 

 

was weird.

 

It wouldn't mix.  In my defense I had just come home from the doctor and I was a little out of it.  Not sure where I went wrong.  I had to do several folds by hand to build the necessary strength.

 

Note the bread never got very brown, even with additional time in the oven.  Some things I do not understand.  Tasted OK though.

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Curiouser and curiouser.  Tonight I cut into the boule.  It looked like something @Ann_T might have posted, with the open and pearlescent crumb.  I'm thinking my pale crust was due to lack of sugar after the long fermentation necessary to build strength.

 

I still have no idea why this batch of dough failed to mix, and I can't even blame it on rum.

 

 

[jimb0]

Long time listener, first time caller. So much good bread in this thread.

 

I eat very little bread these days, staying away from carbs. But it probably remains my favourite food, so I do a lot of baking and either give it all away or send it to work in my SO's lunch. These past few months I've been on a kick of making stuffed rolls and buns; we have creatively started referring to them 'stuffs'. So far I've filled them with leftovers, meats, cheeses (cream cheese-based ones are easy, too). A couple of small ones makes for a nice lunch focal point. 

 

This often gets combined with my love of using non-traditional hydration sources. In one case I was inspired by borscht. Cooked some beets and mashed them into the dough; they were filled with cream cheese, onions, dill, and capers. I was honestly pretty amazed at how well the colour stayed.

 

 

 

These are the same dough (I really only ever bake with two doughs and just twist them to fit the circumstance), only made with carrot juice and filled with cream cheese, candied ginger, and something else, then rolled in walnuts (kindly ignore the experimental sausage balls in the background).

 

 

The carrot juice adds a lovely colour and slight sweetness to an ordinary enriched dough, too, though I could have done a better job on dough development as the texture wasn't really up to snuff:

 

 

Additionally, has anyone experimented with fermenting bread with brewing yeasts? I've played around with a few and gotten some good results. I've read that using some of the traditional brown ale yeasts can lend an oatmeal-ish flavour to a bread that contains, in fact, no oats; it's something I want to try.

Edited April 26, 2019 by jimb0 (log)

[kayb]

What really cool ideas! I'd like to hear more about some examples of the "stuffs."

 

[eugenep]

@jimb0 - nice. 

 

I was always afraid of adding other ingredients to bread just because I thought the flavor of carrots, fruits etc. would be lost when mixed into all that dough 

 

and the high heat of the oven might further burn off and destroy some/most of the "flavor molecules?" responsible for flavor - e.g., when adding lemon zest (can't taste it) 

 

I've only had fruits/veggies mixed bread from mass market grocery chains and these didn't taste that great 

 

so..i wonder about the taste of veggie/fruit mixed breads and whether or not its worth it (e.g., does the flavor add to the bread and is it still retained after mixing and baking etc.)  

[jimb0]

45 minutes ago, kayb said:

What really cool ideas! I'd like to hear more about some examples of the "stuffs."

 

 

Thanks, kay. It kind of depends on the size I'm going for. My standard dough is generally between 500 - 600 grams, roughly 65% hydration, 2% salt. Those are all general guidelines. If I want to use an enriched dough (making them more like buns than rolls) I use the same formula, but add an egg yolk and 10 - 30 grams of buttermilk powder, and sometimes some butter if I'm feeling saucy. If I'm going for more of an "artisan" boule, I'll up the hydration and ferment time. A full batch will make 16 'small stuffs' or 8 'big stuffs'. 16 is a lot for ultimately one person to go through, so I'll make the dough then subdivide it into balls; sometimes that means 4 big stuffs and 8 small stuffs, etc. And it's easy to make 3 or 4 different kinds with each batch. They freeze well once baked, and we typically use a combination of microwave and toaster oven for reheating. 

 

 

I'm a big believer in reformulating leftovers, so that's a big source: I might roast some kind of meat, and that'll be dinner once or twice, soup once or twice, and then baked into stuffs or a casserole or bread if there's any left. That might mean braised beef with mole stuffs, or braised chicken (I braise a ton) with a bunch of various ground/dried chiles. Those generally get a couple of chunks of pizza mozzarella (often a bit less fat, which is better for these), then the dough folded up around. Pizza flavours are a good choice, generally reserved for the big stuffs. I've done potato-chickpea curry stuffs, some lox and cream cheese with dill and capers (okay, but obviously the salmon gets a bit slammed in the oven, don't plan to make again). 

 

 

They also work well with any sweet filling and can serve as a good light snack / tea / dessert. Especially with cream cheese, I'll just blend in fruit, candied or otherwise, or maybe a dollop of one of our jellies). Sometimes they get rolled in nuts or seeds, sometimes not. As a concept I find them endlessly versatile. They'll basically work with whatever flavours you want.

 

Either way, they all tend to get individually bagged and frozen, then all the bags go into a labelled big freezer bag. If you like a crustier roll sort of stuff, you can bake them separated on a sheet; lately I've been baking them inside of a 6-8 qt pot with a lid - that works especially well for the softer / enriched bun sort of stuff:

 

 

30 minutes ago, eugenep said:

@jimb0 - nice. 

 

 

Thanks, bud.

 

30 minutes ago, eugenep said:

and the high heat of the oven might further burn off and destroy some/most of the "flavor molecules?" responsible for flavor - e.g., when adding lemon zest (can't taste it) 

 

 

Yeah, I originally wondered about this, too, but it works. Consider: at its hottest, your bread isn't going to get above the boiling point of water on the inside (unless you're explicitly drying something out). You might lose some flavour of your addition in the very outermost parts of the crust, but that's a small enough percentage that it isn't worth worrying about. Adding a little bit of honey to the bread dough and lots of lemon zest could work very well with either a sweet filling or with less sweetener in something savoury like a Greek or Moroccan chicken theme. 

 

30 minutes ago, eugenep said:

I've only had fruits/veggies mixed bread from mass market grocery chains and these didn't taste that great 

  

so..i wonder about the taste of veggie/fruit mixed breads and whether or not its worth it (e.g., does the flavor add to the bread and is it still retained after mixing and baking etc.)  

 

Sure, but if we were all completely satisfied with grocery bread we probably wouldn't make it as much ourselves, right?  Better quality fruits and veg will out; if you want to guarantee tasting them, leave them in bigger chunks. If it's not dried or candied, I tend to cook everything first before it goes into a dough, else it'll express a lot of water and lead to cavities and textural issues. For the same reason I generally recommend against using frozen fruits and vegetables.

 

As an aside, in terms of not tasting things in your bread: I use recipes more for flavour ideas than anything else; one of my pet peeves is that a very large percentage of the ones I see online tend to skimp on stuff like spices and lemon zest, so I often add more than what is typically called for (sometimes by two or three times).

Edited April 26, 2019 by jimb0 (log)

[jimb0]

Yesterday, I noticed that Bulk Barn now carries (organic, not that I care) sprouted spelt. I milled some this morning and just did a quick pass with a strainer; it only took the largest, most problematic bits of bran. About half a cup, or just over half a percent by weight. 

 

The ~800g bread is thus 100% whole spelt. Roughly 80% hydration, 2% salt, less than 1% yeast. Despite knowing better, I cut it open warm so I could see the structure.

 

 

[Okanagancook]

Wow, that bread looks to be very ‘tasty’.  Lots of nice airy pockets.