Dinner 2016 (Part 8)

[liuzhou]

51 minutes ago, sartoric said:

How do you pronounce Tso ?

 

The problem (if there is one) is that the romanization of 左 as "Tso", is using the very outdated Wade-Giles system long abandoned by everyone except America.

 

In Pinyin, the official modern romanization as adopted by everyone from the Chinese government to the International Standards Organization to the United Nations, it is "zuǒ"

In standard Chinese, as romanized in Pinyin,  'z' is pronounced somewhere between 'ts' as in cats and 'ds' as in buds, leaning more towards 'ds', especially in a Hunan accent which is what the General had.

'uo' is a diphthong which glides from an 'oo" sound into an 'oh' sound.

 

So, in total we have dz-oo-oh. But then there is the added difficulty that Chinese is a tonal language.. This 'zuǒ' is the third tone, as indicated by the diacritic, and is a falling then rising tone.

I am without microphone here, but will try later to post a recording.

 

By the way, as well as being a surname, 左  means 'left' as opposed to 'right.

I guess General Left's Chicken doesn't sound so appealing. And no, I've never eaten it!

Edited September 12, 2016 by liuzhou (log)

[sartoric]

41 minutes ago, liuzhou said:

 

The problem (if there is one) is that the romanization of 左 as "Tso", is using the very outdated Wade-Giles system long abandoned by everyone except America.

 

In Pinyin, the official modern romanization as adopted by everyone from the Chinese government to the International Standards Organization to the United Nations, it is "zuǒ"

In standard Chinese, as romanized in Pinyin,  'z' is pronounced somewhere between 'ts' as in cats and 'ds' as in buds, leaning more towards 'ds', especially in a Hunan accent which is what the General had.

'uo' is a diphthong which glides from an 'oo" sound into an 'oh' sound.

 

So, in total we have dz-oo-oh. But then there is the added difficulty that Chinese is a tonal language.. This 'zuǒ' is the third tone, as indicated by the diacritic, and is a falling then rising tone.

I am without microphone here, but will try later to post a recording.

 

By the way, as well as being a surname, 左  means 'left' as opposed to 'right.

I guess General Left's Chicken doesn't sound so appealing. And no, I've never eaten it!

 

 I think I got it, thanks for the explanation @liuzhou.

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

1 hour ago, sartoric said:

I've never had General Tso's chicken, and I don't live in China....Agree that it looks great

How do you pronounce Tso ?

 

The person in question pronounced it (as best I can say) "Chu".

 

[liuzhou]

19 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

The person in question pronounced it (as best I can say) "Chu".

 

 

Hmmm. I've never heard it pronounced anything like that.

Edited September 12, 2016 by liuzhou (log)

[liuzhou]

17 minutes ago, sartoric said:

 I think I got it, thanks for the explanation @liuzhou.

 

I bet you are sorry you asked now!

 

[liuzhou]

@sartoric @JoNorvelleWalker

 

You can hear the standard Chinese pronunciation here. Click on the ⇉ for the first entry then on the loudspeaker image.

In a nice female voice instead of my rasp.

 

Edited September 12, 2016 by liuzhou (log)

[huiray]

5 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

The person in question pronounced it (as best I can say) "Chu".

 

 

You're in New Jersey, USA.  Was this in NYC or a Chinese restaurant in NE New Jersey? If so, it's possible the chap in question was from Fujian/"Fook-chow" or Jiangsi/"Kong-si" or related areas (i.e. a Wu dialect speaker) --- I *think* the pronunciation would then be closer to "chu" (as you describe) or "tsu"?

FWIW the Cantonese for it would be zo2 in Jyutping, and Cantonese is still a widely-spoken dialect (if not necessarily the dominant one) in many areas in North America. (Certain forms of Fujianese would compete with Cantonese in NYC, I believe, and possibly NE Jersey; newer Chinese-heritage immigrants I suppose would speak standard pinyin/Mandarin more routinely)

 

For myself I can't remember the last time I ate General Tso's Chicken. A long time ago, anyway, even if I guess I have had it in the past.

ETA: I think I ought to check out a plate or two of it again, soon. :-) 

Edited September 12, 2016 by huiray (log)

[huiray]

Fedelini with basil pesto.

 

Plus simply-done broccoli.

[rotuts]

@liuzhou 

 

thanks for the fine reference .

 

 

[Norm Matthews]

If I recall correctly, it was about 40 years ago, when as an art teacher,  I read (studied) a book on the Chinese Dynasties in relation to the arts of the periods.  It was only a very short time after that in which the Chinese government changed the spelling and English pronunciation in a way that made the book and everything I had attempted to teach myself obsolete.  For example Peking was changed to Beijing. 

[liuzhou]

1 hour ago, Norm Matthews said:

If I recall correctly, it was about 40 years ago, when as an art teacher,  I read (studied) a book on the Chinese Dynasties in relation to the arts of the periods.  It was only a very short time after that in which the Chinese government changed the spelling and English pronunciation in a way that made the book and everything I had attempted to teach myself obsolete.  For example Peking was changed to Beijing. 

 

No one changed the pronunciation. They changed the transliteration from something invented by a half-deaf Cambridge don and his student into something much more sensible. The capital was never, ever pronounced "pee-king" in Chinese. It was always more like "bay-jing".

Similarly, things like kung-po chicken are meaningless to the vast majority of Chinese speakers. It has always been "gong bao (pronounced bow as in what you do when you meet the queen) " Ask for wontons in 99% of Chinese restaurants in China and they'll be baffled.

Anyway, probably enough Chinese language for one day. I have to put up with it every day!

Dinner tonight was a couple of home-made hamburgers and chips (fries). No pic.

Edited September 12, 2016 by liuzhou (log)

[Shelby]

Ronnie smoked a turkey breast (domestic) for a bit and then I SV'd it for 3 hours at 143F.  Oh it was so juicy.

 

 

 

 

[ElsieD]

Roast beef dinner last night.  Meat sv'd at 132,  browned with magic browning powder, braised sweet and sour red cabbage (which goes better with pork than beef in my opinion) , tiny tomatoes just heated through with olive oil and fresh thyme, Yorkies, gravy, and some oven roasted potato slices.   Those tiny tomatoes are a revelation.  I first had them at a restaurant in Newfoundland and they blew me away.  I had never seen them before.  Last Saturday I went to a farmer's Market and lo and behold, one of the vendors was selling them.  I can eat them like candy.  They are about the size of my thumb nail.

Edited September 12, 2016 by ElsieD
added spuds (log)

[Norm Matthews]

1 hour ago, liuzhou said:

 

No one changed the pronunciation. They changed the transliteration from something invented by a half-deaf Cambridge don and his student into something much more sensible. The capital was never, ever pronounced "pee-king" in Chinese. It was always more like "bay-jing".

Similarly, things like kung-po chicken are meaningless to the vast majority of Chinese speakers. It has always been "gong bao (pronounced bow as in what you do when you meet the queen) " Ask for wontons in 99% of Chinese restaurants in China and they'll be baffled.

Anyway, probably enough Chinese language for one day. I have to put up with it every day!

Dinner tonight was a couple of home-made hamburgers and chips (fries). No pic.

 

 

I was not very clear in what I said. Not wanting to belabor the point but the reason I said "English pronunciation" was because I realize the Chinese pronunciations of their own words had not changed but rather the English understanding of the way they were actually pronounced is what was clarified. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by Norm Matthews (log)

[ProfessionalHobbit]

3 hours ago, huiray said:

 

You're in New Jersey, USA.  Was this in NYC or a Chinese restaurant in NE New Jersey? If so, it's possible the chap in question was from Fujian/"Fook-chow" or Jiangsi/"Kong-si" or related areas (i.e. a Wu dialect speaker) --- I *think* the pronunciation would then be closer to "chu" (as you describe) or "tsu"?

FWIW the Cantonese for it would be zo2 in Jyutping, and Cantonese is still a widely-spoken dialect (if not necessarily the dominant one) in many areas in North America. (Certain forms of Fujianese would compete with Cantonese in NYC, I believe, and possibly NE Jersey; newer Chinese-heritage immigrants I suppose would speak standard pinyin/Mandarin more routinely)

 

For myself I can't remember the last time I ate General Tso's Chicken. A long time ago, anyway, even if I guess I have had it in the past.

ETA: I think I ought to check out a plate or two of it again, soon. :-) 

 

 

I had it recently, and it's made very differently at the restaurant I have in mind compared to others.  No broccoli, the chicken itself wasn't as deep-fried as in other versions and it was spicier and less sweet.

 

Thanks liuzhou; I used to speak Mandarin Chinese when I was a kid but that got left at the wayside when I came to the U.S.

 

 

We had roast chicken for dinner.  One chicken, rubbed with a 1:1 mixture of salt and black pepper, then trussed and placed on a rack atop diced potatoes, celery and carrots that were similarly seasoned and dressed in 2 tbsp. olive oil, then roasted at 450 F for 1 hour, 20 minutes.  Came out juicy, tender and with tissue paper-thin skin.  It was awesome.

 

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

5 hours ago, huiray said:

 

You're in New Jersey, USA.  Was this in NYC or a Chinese restaurant in NE New Jersey? If so, it's possible the chap in question was from Fujian/"Fook-chow" or Jiangsi/"Kong-si" or related areas (i.e. a Wu dialect speaker) --- I *think* the pronunciation would then be closer to "chu" (as you describe) or "tsu"?

FWIW the Cantonese for it would be zo2 in Jyutping, and Cantonese is still a widely-spoken dialect (if not necessarily the dominant one) in many areas in North America. (Certain forms of Fujianese would compete with Cantonese in NYC, I believe, and possibly NE Jersey; newer Chinese-heritage immigrants I suppose would speak standard pinyin/Mandarin more routinely)

 

For myself I can't remember the last time I ate General Tso's Chicken. A long time ago, anyway, even if I guess I have had it in the past.

ETA: I think I ought to check out a plate or two of it again, soon. :-) 

 

 

The person with the General's name was from Texas.

 

I note Carolyn Phillips' All Under Heaven does not have an entry for General Tso's Chicken.  The talk section of the Wikipedia entry makes an amusing read:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:General_Tso's_chicken

 

[Okanagancook]

Steak, frites and overdone broccoli (from IP).  This was from last week.

[Okanagancook]

Part of dinner which I forgot to take a picture of.  Roasted okra with onion, garlic and mint.  From a Gift of Southern Cooking.

[Okanagancook]

4 hours ago, Shelby said:

Ronnie smoked a turkey breast (domestic) for a bit and then I SV'd it for 3 hours at 143F.  Oh it was so juicy.

 

 

 

 

OMG, that turkey looks fantastic!  I can see the moisture on the surface!  And do I see zoodles on the plate!?

[huiray]

44 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

The person with the General's name was from Texas.

 

I note Carolyn Phillips' All Under Heaven does not have an entry for General Tso's Chicken.  The talk section of the Wikipedia entry makes an amusing read:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:General_Tso's_chicken

 

 

Ah. What is his dialect group?

 

GTC is an American-Chinese dish, so I would not expect it to appear in that "All Under Heaven" book. I would murmur that American-Chinese cuisine can be considered as an acknowledged cuisine in its own right.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

53 minutes ago, huiray said:

 

Ah. What is his dialect group?

 

GTC is an American-Chinese dish, so I would not expect it to appear in that "All Under Heaven" book. I would murmur that American-Chinese cuisine can be considered as an acknowledged cuisine in its own right.

 

Southwestern US as best I can recall.

 

I agree with you about American-Chinese cuisine being considered a cuisine in its own right.  I was somewhat joking about All Under Heaven, as I had not expected General Tso's to show up.

[ninagluck]

@Okanagancook, yes I used a teaspoon. for this dish the spaetzle should be bigger as from a ricer

[Shelby]

3 hours ago, Okanagancook said:

OMG, that turkey looks fantastic!  I can see the moisture on the surface!  And do I see zoodles on the plate!?

Thank you!  I don't know how we ate turkey before I learned to SV lol.  

 

The zucchini is just thinly sliced on my new mandolin (yes, I've cut my thumb twice now) and simply tossed with fresh lemon juice and salt.  It's seriously SO good.  It sounds too simple to be good, but I swear it is.

[suzilightning]

Sauteed yellow and green squash with thinly sliced onions, jasmine rice and duck breasts that were slowly cooked until the skin was crispy then finished and a sauce made with some leftover lingonberry jam.

[Okanagancook]

2 hours ago, Shelby said:

Thank you!  I don't know how we ate turkey before I learned to SV lol.  

 

The zucchini is just thinly sliced on my new mandolin (yes, I've cut my thumb twice now) and simply tossed with fresh lemon juice and salt.  It's seriously SO good.  It sounds too simple to be good, but I swear it is.

I have had my mandolin for quite a few years and have only slightly cut myself once.  The key is your UNDIVIDED ATTENTION !  I also use a small bar towel to put on top of the object being sliced if it is large, like potatoes when slicing for frites.  I love my mandolin.  I just picked the last of the zucchini so will make your sala for lunch tomorrow.  Thanks for sharing.