Gardening: 2015-2016

[KennethT]

ElainaA, I'm actually looking to grow some things that are not readily available near me.... so I'm looking to grow rau ram, sawtooth coriander, pea shoots, kailan... stuff like that.

[KennethT]

After a few years hiatus, I finally cleaned my hydro windowsill garden for leafy plants!  As you can see in the pics, a nice snowy day is the perfect day to think about gardening...  and please excuse that magenta glow... that's the led plant light for the lime tree...

 

Right now, I'm just running the system for a few days with some hydrogen peroxide (to sterilize) and another solution which will help break any bonds between any old, remaining fertilizer and the system components.

 

Once I get my seeds, I'll plant them in my hydro germinator, and once the root systems are big enough, they'll be transferred into the windowsill garden.

[Smithy]

@KennethT, photos of the process would be of great interest as you continue.

[ElainaA]

@KennethT - I am not that familiar with Asian greens. When I google rau ram and kailan both come up as "Chinese broccoli" or Chinese kale". Are they significantly different from each other? Are they also different from the broccoli x gailon crosses that are easily available? 

[KennethT]

@ElainaA Rau ram is an herb - it is sometimes called Vietnamese coriander, although I don't think it tastes anything like coriander.  It is also known as laksa leaf in Singapore and is an important part of the Singapore curry dish with the same name.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persicaria_odorata

 

Kailan is chinese broccoli, but there are many variants of it, some more leafy, some more stemmy...  I don't think it tastes anything like western broccoli.

[ElainaA]

11 minutes ago, KennethT said:

@ElainaA Rau ram is an herb - it is sometimes called Vietnamese coriander, although I don't think it tastes anything like coriander.  It is also known as laksa leaf in Singapore and is an important part of the Singapore curry dish with the same name.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persicaria_odorata

 

Kailan is chinese broccoli, but there are many variants of it, some more leafy, some more stemmy...  I don't think it tastes anything like western broccoli.

@KennethT Thanks - As a cook/gardener I need to know more about these plants.........

Edited February 16, 2016 by ElainaA (log)

[KennethT]

One thing I love about growing a citrus tree... Every time I give it a haircut, I get a flush of new growth all over!

[LindaK]

On 2/15/2016 at 5:17 PM, KennethT said:

After a few years hiatus, I finally cleaned my hydro windowsill garden for leafy plants!  As you can see in the pics, a nice snowy day is the perfect day to think about gardening...  and please excuse that magenta glow... that's the led plant light for the lime tree...

 

 

Kenneth, can you say more about how you keep a lime tree alive and healthy in a NYC apartment?  What kind of led light do you use? How many hours a day does the plant need it?

 

Very tempting!

 

[KennethT]

@LindaKGrowing citrus indoors is a lot harder than almost anything else I've ever grown...  It has a particular affinity to get pythium bacteria, which cause root rot.  That's why any advice you see refers to planting in really well draining soil.

 

I started growing dwarf citrus (I got the baby trees from Four Winds Growers) over 10 years ago. Back then, I followed their instructions and got these big terracotta planters, and drilled a bunch of big holes in the bottom, and elevated the pot off the saucer... the planting media was bagged soil amended with at least half it's volume with cedar/redwood shavings to help with drainage.  I got a moisture meter, and watered about once a week when the meter said the soil at the root level was on the 'dry side of moist', but invariably wound up getting root rot.  When that happens, the tree looks like it has a nutrient deficiency (they are heavy nitrogen feeders, so you see the N deficiency first) even though you are feeding it with proper fertilizer.  You start getting chlorosis in the leaves, and then they start to drop off, and then finally, the tree puts out a ridiculous amount of flowers - that's when you know it's on its last leg.  You can usually save the tree when the leaves start dropping off by unplanting it, shaking off all the soil out of the roots, and removing the slimy parts of the roots... then repot with fresh soil/wood shavings.  No matter how much wood shavings I added, I kept getting spots that wouldn't drain as well as the tree wanted, and the process starts over.

 

After killing a couple of trees, I started researching hydroponics - thinking that if I had no soil to compact around the roots, then I couldn't get root rot.  I settled on the ebb/flow (also called flood/drain) method, since it was probably the easiest to make myself, and it look promising that every time the root chamber drained, it would suck fresh air into the root zone, theoretically eliminating any chance of root rot, since pythium is anaerobic.  It didn't quite work out that way, but the tree certainly did much better than it did in soil.  The advantage of the hydroponics is that I can check the pH of the reservoir very easily - when I see the pH dropping, I know that the root rot is starting (pythium creates acid, so when the pH suddenly drops, you know why!).  So, at that point, I add about 8ml per gallon of 17% hydrogen peroxide, and that stops the rot right away.  I also add some Hygrozyme (15ml per gallon) - which is an enzyme that is created by beneficial bacteria, that eats rot and cleans your roots.  The enzyme also allows better nutrient uptake as I gather it chelates a lot of nutrients which facilitates transport into the roots.

 

With regards to lighting, I am lucky that my apartment faces south and has large windows, so I don't need that much supplemental lighting.  Years ago, I was using a 400W metal halide lamp as supplemental lighting, but as technology advanced, I replaced it with a 100W LED plant light (available pretty inexpensively on Ebay).  Using a timer, I have the light on about 18 hours per day.  If I didn't have the large windows, I'd probably use a 1000W metal halide lamp, or 250W LED - using those lights, I could probably grow the tree in a closet!

 

Well, sorry for rambling on like this...  I'm sure I went into way more detail than you were looking for...

[LindaK]

Kenneth, thanks, it's not too much info at all. It's very helpful. I'm somewhat familiar with hydrophonics when used with small plants, especially herbs and greens, but I never knew that it could be used for something as large as a tree.  I'm going to give this some thought--no south facing windows chez moi, sadly.

[KennethT]

You can grow practically anything with hydroponics.  A few years ago, on the other side of the large window from the lime tree, I grew a large heirloom tomato plant.  It was so large and leafy that it used almost a gallon of water a day!  I wound up getting a 30 gallon food grade drum to use as a reservoir - it's currently hiding behind my couch, and the 3/4" tubing is run along the wall that connects it to the area where the plant was.  I've known other people who have successfully grown strawberries, chili peppers and a wide variety of other stuff - grown in rooms with no windows!  In fact, with a lot of flowering plants, it's best to have a room with no windows so you can completely manipulate the lighting to the schedule you want.  For most flowering/fruiting plants (but not citrus), you want to have 18 hours of light for vegetative growth, and then you switch the time to 12 light/12 dark to get the plant to start flowering. You would also change your nutrient from a veg. formula (high N, lower P) to a bloom formula (lower N, high P).

 

So, if you have a large spare closet, or unused room (or basement even) you're good to go!  Nowadays, LED lighting is much less expensive, and a couple of 250W panels would be plenty bright for a small room with no windows.  Plus, their electricity use is a lot less than the old halide/sodium lamps - plus they don't make nearly as much heat, so you don't have to worry about cooling the room as much.  You do need to do something about ventilation though - some kind of exhaust fan as a closed room will get quite humid with lots of plants, and some circulation fans to stop having a stagnant microclimate around the leaves.

 

One thing to note if you're to use any kind of supplemental lighting near a window - they are bright!  I can see my 100W LED light from the sidewalk across the street from my building - and my apartment is on the 21st floor!

[dcarch]

"--- LED lighting is much less expensive, and a couple of 250W panels would be plenty bright for a small room with no windows.  Plus, their electricity use is a lot less than the old halide/sodium lamps - plus they don't make nearly as much heat, ---"

 

Actually a 400W LED and a 400W MH lamp will generate the exact same amount of heat (watts x BTUs). The thing to look for is lumen output per watt.

LED lights feels cooler because they have built-in fans to cool down.

You see LED claims 50,000 to 100,000 hours life. But the critical part is how long the fan will last for the lights. If the fan goes out , the LEDs will be fried in a few seconds.

 

dcarch

 

And BTW, LEDs may not come down in $ soon. Recreational "herbs" growers. :-)

Edited February 20, 2016 by dcarch (log)

[KennethT]

@dcarchYou are correct, but a 400W LED puts out a LOT more light than a 400W MH... the reason why LEDs are so much cooler is that a 250W LED has the equivalent light output of 1000W MH.

 

It is also true that the lifetime is based on the fan lifetime - but my small, 100W light has 3 small cooling fans that blow on the heat sink, and it has so far lasted for at least 5 years, during which time I would have had to replace a MH bulb 5 times.  You need to replace the MH/sodium bulbs every 6 months or so because around that time, their light output is diminished by almost half, even though they use the same amount of power.  LEDs do not lose intensity over their lifetime by any practical amount.  Consider that the cost of 1 MH/sodium bulb is about the same as my whole LED fixture, and you can do the math...

 

And while demand is higher (in some states) due to the legality of growing cannibis, I've found that LEDs are still coming down in price on a regular basis, or to put another way, you can get a lot more light output for the same $$.  With the increased demand, there are also a lot more companies making LED fixtures, so there is no supply constraint that would artificially raise prices, and as the technology grows, the cost of each LED per W or per lumen is coming down all the time.

[AlaMoi]

so . . .

 

before the salts from the urine gets too deep on the shoes -

 

would ya'll consider clarifying whether you're talking "watts of light" or "watts of electricity"?

 

NO of course NOT

they are not the same thing. 

 

see any package - a "60 watt light bulb" that uses only 9 watts -

 

get the measures & units straight.

[KennethT]

Watt is a measure of work, or power, so it can describe electrical power, sound power, or thermal power... but I've never heard it describe light power...  Light intensity is typically measured in Lumens, or Candlepower... 

 

Nowadays, when you see an energy efficient "60 Watt light bulb" that uses only 9 Watts, it's not that it puts out "60 Watts of light" but they are letting you know that the Lumen output of the bulb is equivalent to that of a standard 60 Watt incandescent.

 

Nowadays, most greenhouse lighting specialists refer to a light's PAR value rather than straight lumen output, since plants only require a specific spectrum for photosynthesis, and most bulbs' output is over a much larger spectrum, which results in a lot of 'wasted' light - so an LED fixture with a certain lumen output may have a higher PAR value than an incandescent or fluorescent bulb of the same or even higher higher lumen output. 

[dcarch]

"----------- Nowadays, when you see an energy efficient "60 Watt light bulb" that uses only 9 Watts, it's not that it puts out "60 Watts of light" but they are letting you know that the Lumen output of the bulb is equivalent to that of a standard 60 Watt incandescent. ---------------- Nowadays, most greenhouse lighting specialists refer to a light's PAR value  "

 

PARdon  me for being too technical.  

60 watts will alway produce 60 watts of light. Except a lot of the light is in the invisible spectrum (IR). That's why PAR makes more sense.

 

dcarch

[KennethT]

Sorry - I should have said 'visible light'....

[HungryChris]

I just spread some mushroom compost on my little asparagus bed. It's 4 years old this spring and I hope this is the season that it actually puts some on the table. Fingers crossed.

HC

[Shelby]

@HungryChris at 4 years old your asparagus should be in perfect shape to give you a few meals worth  

 

My husband burned the garden off over the weekend and has done a bit of tilling.  Need to apply fertilizer and till more.  The weather has been so warm that I now feel behind in planting.    He has started a bunch of seeds in the green house (I leave all of that to him...he enjoys it  )  

[Okanagancook]

I uncovered my garlic which is about eight inches tall.  (It was covered with leaves and burlap.)

Planted my peas and some salad greens.  Then came inside and checked the weather, bloody hell, it's going to -6 C tonight.  I will be covering the garlic I guess.

[Luke]

The first two of six Haogen Melons ripened today in the garden.....

 

Now I just need to buy some prosciutto to wrap it with....thats if I (and the rest of the family) stop eating it...

 

[Anna N]

Oops.  I just edited an old post to update you on my experiences with micro greens. I don't know why I thought it might show up as new activity!   Anyway tonight I finally planted some micro green seeds. Although I had hoped to keep the expenditures to nothing more than the seeds and the container,  I realized that even in the height of summer I need electric lights on just to see what I'm doing.  This house has almost no natural light and certainly no southern exposure. So I invested in a unit that I hope will do the trick.  I am sure there are many cheaper DIY solutions but I am not skilled in that sort of thing.  

[KennethT]

@Anna NI find for lettuce, and for other green leafy things, especially when young, a compact fluorescent bulb is all you need.  I got one from the Home Depot that is supposed to have a "natural light" output, which means that the color spectrum is not as cold and blue as a standard fluorescent... it works well for seed starting and cloning.  I also bought (from the HD) a clamp on light fixture so I can just clamp my compact fluorescent bulb about a foot above the plants.  I should be getting my herb seeds soon, so I'll show you what I do in more detail then.  My set up is more complicated because I'm not using soil, the theory is similar.

[Anna N]

58 minutes ago, KennethT said:

@Anna NI find for lettuce, and for other green leafy things, especially when young, a compact fluorescent bulb is all you need.  I got one from the Home Depot that is supposed to have a "natural light" output, which means that the color spectrum is not as cold and blue as a standard fluorescent... it works well for seed starting and cloning.  I also bought (from the HD) a clamp on light fixture so I can just clamp my compact fluorescent bulb about a foot above the plants.  I should be getting my herb seeds soon, so I'll show you what I do in more detail then.  My set up is more complicated because I'm not using soil, the theory is similar.

Kenneth,

I should have sought advice on an economical way to solve my problem but I admit to being just a tad impulsive.   Since I have already given away my money for a sophisticated lighting system I still say you should post details of your system for others who may not be quite so impulsive.   Thanks for your kind thoughts.   

[ElainaA]

@Anna N  For microgreens nothing elaborate is needed since you only grow them for about 2 weeks. So, if you are now in possession of a more sophisticated lighting system you could find other additional ways to use it. It's easy to grow lettuce inside in a set up very like the microgreens although you would have to thin the seedlings out quite a bit. If you do not want to get into large planters (or buckets) or hydroponics you should stick with shallow rooted plants - you could grow a wonderful salad mix. 

 

Our house when we were first married was a converted three car garage. Beautifully converted by the same architect that did our current house but DARK. Anything I grew inside required lights. Fortunately, as part of his business, my husband has a metal shop so he built a three level stand with adjustable lighting for me. When we built this house one thing I insisted on was lots of light. So my microgreens are on a table near a window and do just fine. I still use the stand when I start my seeds for the outside garden as there isn't room for all the plants in the windows.

 

The posts in this thread have me yearning to get started but I know better. If i start seeds before the end of March they will get too leggy and pot bound before I can put them out. Last year I lost all my peppers and 12 tomato plants to frost on May 23 - this year I will heed my mother's warning of years ago - "NEVER plant tomatoes out before Memorial Day."