Red cooking wine?

[FeChef]

About 5 years ago I had a recipe for an Au jus that called for red cooking wine. At the time cooking with wine was fairly new to me and i used the stuff at the grocery store. You know the stuff wine connoisseur's frown upon. Well, the Au jus came out great. And as i started cooking with wine more i started using regular wine, mainly just Marsala wine. I have tried a few regular red wines and the sauces have came out terribly bitter and almost purple in color. I do not drink red wine so i am not familiar with the different types but when i ask the people at the wine store they always tell me to use these bitter dark colored red wines.

 

So my question is, what type of "red" is the stuff at the grocery store? And if i choose to buy a quality red wine, which wine would be similar in taste/color to the grocery store red cooking wine?

[Norm Matthews]

If you mean "cooking wine" it is wine that is too salty to drink.  A restauranteur created cooking wine to keep his chefs sober in the kitchen.  Marsala and dry sherry are OK wines for cooking if for no other reason that they are fortified and will keep a lot longer than table wines.  In the past I have used generic wines for cooking like Mountain Red or Chianti made in California.  I think Gallo burgundy and Hearty Burgundy were Ok too. I have no idea if any of those wines are still being marketed but that can give you an idea of what to look for that may be better than the Cabernet Sauvignon or Pinot Noir that you are trying to avoid.  

Edited December 23, 2014 by Norm Matthews (log)

[gfweb]

The stuff labeled cooking wine is just as Norm said. No good for anything really.

 

The wine you cook with depends a lot of what the dish is and how you are using it, eg deglazing or adding to a red sauce as it cooks or a beurre blanc etc

 

FWIW I hate to open a whole bottle of good wine just to pour a little of it in a pan, so I keep a bunch of those airplane sized bottles of good-enough wine for  cooking.

[Paul Bacino]

I imagine your sauces with red wines are bitter because the tannins are un resolved or is overly oaked.

 

I use white vermouth regularly for my white reductions,  not sure why red vermouth wouldn't be a good substitute

 

http://summerfruitcup.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/redvermouth/

 

Botabox also makes so interesting stuff.

 

May want to read this thread too>

 

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/147290-substituting-or-omitting-red-wine-in-recipes/

Edited December 23, 2014 by Paul Bacino (log)

[ninagluck]

I only use wine for cooking I would also like to drink and I never had a bitter sauce

[Panaderia Canadiense]

Like Nina, I don't use wine for cooking that I wouldn't also like to drink.  There's a bottle of rather cheap but also not at all ugly dry Merlot under my counter at the moment, which makes beautiful sauces.  The under-counter red, which just sits with its cork in it until I require it for a sauce or a sip, is usually either a Merlot, a Malbec, or a blend of the two, and it's also usually either Chilean or Argentine.

 

I've also got a cheap bottle of Sauvignon Blanc in the fridge that is a bit young for the table but which adds to sauces where a red wine would be too heavy.  The white bottle of sauce wine in the fridge is usually cheap Sauv Blanc from Chile, but occasionally it's a slightly snootier Chardonnay.  And when I can afford it and find it, it's a Vinho Verde from Portugal.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Panaderia Canadiense (log)

[FeChef]

The red cooking wine with the salt added was the original wine i used and the au jus was fantastic. All the good wines were the ones that turned out bitter and really dark color almost purple. Those sauces i threw away as i found them terrible. The red (salt added) cooking wine was light red like kool aid color. I have no idea what type of red it would be considered.

[Lisa Shock]

Read THIS NYT article about wine and cooking. It's my favorite wine review of all time, btw.

[Paul Bacino]

Possible this Fe----

 

http://www.reginavinegar.com/products/regina-red-cooking-wine/

[ChrisTaylor]

Like Nina, I don't use wine for cooking that I wouldn't also like to drink.  

 

This. That is not to say it needs to be expensive wine. Or wine you'd drink as first choice if you were opening the bottle purely to drink. Put it this way: if you used 500mL in the dish, would you drink the rest?

 

EDIT

 

But in answer to your concerns about normal wine, could it be that you didn't cook it enough? Didn't reduce it enough? In braises and such I just use cheap clean skin bottles of local Merlot or Shiraz. They're competitively priced with airplane bottles.

[Martin Fisher]

...red cooking wine. 

 

 

What brand did you use?

[AlaMoi]

there is a very old adage as folks have alluded above:  never cook with a wine you would not drink (out of a glass)

 

"cooking wines" in grocery stores exist in states where wine cannot be sold 'by just anyone' - and as mentioned, is usually made undrinkable by the addition of lotsandlotsandlots of salt.

 

you used some, it worked, no problem.  the problems come in when either 'expanding' the use or trying it again next week/month/year.  because..... it's not usually the best stuff they salt&bottle for supermarket cooking wine.  actually, it more typically the stuff that was so bad nobody would buy it, so they smash the bottles, filter out the glass, add lots of salt and call it 'cooking wine'

 

big broad brush strokes:  there are dry (ie "tart") wines and "sweet" (ie not tart)

in both reds and whites.

dry aka tart in whites usually reflects high acidity.

dry /tart/ puckery in reds more usually due to high tannin content.

 

reds are often classified as 'full bodied' (and such) meaning they have strong flavor profiles as opposed to a a milder red.

 

so what does one use for which?

bottom line:  what you like.

 

I could probably get elected with lines like that.....

 

in practical terms, lighter dishes - like seafood/chicken - usually employ a white wine.  the amount of fat/richness of the dish/sauce can dictate the degree of dryness/acidity.  a dry wine (red or white) tends to 'cut through the fattiness / oily mouth feel/taste'

 

darker dishes/meats/sauces need a stronger wine profile if you're going to notice them.  it's similar to the difference between a blonde roux and a brick roux - light vs dark - mild vs pronounced. 

 

beef / game / etc usually develops a stronger flavor.

 

pork, veal - that kinda' runs down the middle - can go either way depending on preparation.

 

and all this simply adds up to "there's general guidelines, but it sorta' depends"

it all adds up to "experience" and how hard you want to work at your own 'expertise' in predicting the outcome.

 

btw, one of my pet peeves is having to open a 750ml bottle for half a cup (some 125ml) - then what's with the rest?

I have tried the small airline size bottles with really ugly results.  apparently decent wines are not bottled for airline consumption.....

[djyee100]

I wouldn't advise people to use "cooking wine" and I'm not going to start now. If you like this product, then you do--people have different tastes, right?

 

If you want to experiment cooking with wine, I suggest

 

-- beaujolais, which is fresh, fruity, low tannic , and reasonably priced.
-- cotes de rhone wines, which are also on the fruity, moderate tannic side, and reasonably priced.

 

I suggest that you avoid wines that are known for their tannins, like cabernet sauvignon, merlot, syrah. I also avoid pinot noir at low prices, because the quality at low prices can be poor. But if you've tasted the wine and you think it's good, then by all means cook with it.

 

For white wine, I recommend a sauvignon blanc from the Loire Vly, France. This a fresh wine, very food friendly, reasonably priced, and of very consistent quality. This is my favorite white wine for cooking.

 

When you complain about the bitterness of red wines, I wonder if you are simply oversensitive to tannins. If that's so, forego red wines and experiment with balsamic vinegars, which you might like better. A few drops of balsamic vinegar will enliven a dish and add some extra interest. I also like the suggestions upthread for sherry, marsala, and vermouth. I'll add madeira, which can match well with beef-y dishes, especially braised beef.

[Panaderia Canadiense]

This. That is not to say it needs to be expensive wine. Or wine you'd drink as first choice if you were opening the bottle purely to drink. Put it this way: if you used 500mL in the dish, would you drink the rest?

 

EDIT

 

But in answer to your concerns about normal wine, could it be that you didn't cook it enough? Didn't reduce it enough? In braises and such I just use cheap clean skin bottles of local Merlot or Shiraz. They're competitively priced with airplane bottles.

 

Shoot, I don't buy anything more expensive than $7 a bottle unless it's a very special occasion (then I'll splash up to $20).  There are some very nice wines in the low price ranges.

[FeChef]

Merlot and burgundy i think were two wines i had tried that turned my sauce purple when reduced. It ruined the color and flavor. I was mad because i had spent $10 on the wine, $5 on the demi glace, and probably another $5 in chicken stock and carrots,celery,onions.

 

My wife went to the wine store and asked for a light red colored wine good for cooking and the person told her Pinot noir. I havent used it before but i have used a white Pinot grigio in a sauce once and it was not bad.

 

About the grocery store salty wine...I dont see the big deal if your going to add salt to a sauce anyway. Especially if you use a low or no salt added beef or chicken stock. If the wine itself is cheap and does not taste good fine, but dont blame it on the salt content.

[Paul Bacino]

Fe..franzia..or sutter home...makes a good cooking pinot gris...its good for cooking...I don't get caught up in the..what I drink..use thing..cheers good luck

Edited December 24, 2014 by Paul Bacino (log)

[djyee100]

Merlot and burgundy i think were two wines i had tried that turned my sauce purple when reduced. It ruined the color and flavor. I was mad because i had spent $10 on the wine, $5 on the demi glace, and probably another $5 in chicken stock and carrots,celery,onions.

 

My wife went to the wine store and asked for a light red colored wine good for cooking and the person told her Pinot noir...

 

If you're cooking coq au vin or beef bourguignon, then red burgundy/pinot noir is the traditional way to go. The person at the store was giving competent advice. Obviously it didn't work out for you. Next time, try beaujolais for either of these two dishes.

 

The sauce might have a purplish cast in it, but it shouldn't be bright purple. Try using less wine and/or browning the meat more.

 

I have my doubts about pinot noir at low prices (hence my warning upthread). I've had poor results buying it and cooking with it. Red burgundy/pinot noir is the darling of wine geeks, and I've wondered if high demand is the reason for poor quality at low prices. That, plus the fact that pinot noir is notoriously fussy to grow--it's hit or miss anyway. Other varietals can be good at low prices.

 

Merlot is a dark, tannic wine. I wouldn't put it in a stew, or if I did, I'd be careful how much I added. When I saute a steak, I like to deglaze the pan with a little cabernet sauvignon or merlot. These two wines are perfect to accompany grilled or sauteed steaks.

 

Wine is not a standard product. It can taste very different among varietals and winemakers, so it can be tricky to cook with.

Edited December 24, 2014 by djyee100 (log)

[FeChef]

I appreciate all the opinions/advice. I personally like to drink sweet wines like catawba, pink mascato, and lambrusco. I have never thought of using these for savory dishes like rack of lamb or filet mignon. Hopefully the Pinot noir turns out ok. I wish i could remember that grocery brand red cooking wine atleast so i could research what type of red it was. All i remember is it was a light red color slightly darker then pink mascato almost red kool aid color. Definitely not as dar as this Pinot noir my wife picked up.

[nickrey]

It would seem the problem is more related to using cheap wine than it is to the variety.

 

Pinot Noir (which is all Red Burgundy) has thin skins and does not impart a dark purple colour to wine when it is made. If you are getting a very dark Pinot Noir or Burgundy, I'd suggest that it is not what is advertised on the label. Pinot can only grow well in cooler climates, hence good Pinots come out of Oregon in the US. If it is grown if warmer climates, it will develop large amounts of sugar and taste something like dried raisins or stewed fruit.

 

My recommendation for cooking with wine is to use the cheapest wine that you would conceivably drink. Taste a teaspoonful. If you don't mind it, use it. After this it is a matter of controlling your cooking and your seasoning. If the dish is too bitter, which can be caused through tannins from skins and seeds, then add some salt. As for all cooking, it's all about balance and adjusting seasoning to make the dish work for you.

[Martin Fisher]

Côtes du Rhône

[rotuts]

I remember that TYTimes article.  a lot of insight there.

 

if you don't drink red wine, look into a dry or sweet vermouth depending on the effect you want in the end re: sweetness

 

it keeps a lot longer due to the extra alcohol added to it.

 

then don't worry about it.   Id avoid wine w salt, unless that's how you chose to salt the dish.

 

don't waist money  on wine you don't really intend to drink as is.

Edited December 24, 2014 by rotuts (log)

[gfweb]

Worth remembering as well that wine-y sauces have been passed-by by many chefs.  Lots of ways to deglaze without using wine. Given the variability of different wines, even  wines of the same grape, one can probably get more reliable flavors with stock, water or dilute vinegar.

 

Thinking about it, if one chooses red wine it might be logical to go with a big blended brand that wants a consistent product.

[Shelby]

The stuff labeled cooking wine is just as Norm said. No good for anything really.

 

The wine you cook with depends a lot of what the dish is and how you are using it, eg deglazing or adding to a red sauce as it cooks or a beurre blanc etc

 

FWIW I hate to open a whole bottle of good wine just to pour a little of it in a pan, so I keep a bunch of those airplane sized bottles of good-enough wine for  cooking.

That's a really good idea.

[rotuts]

a lot of good points here.

 

I don't use wine for every dish, but if its in the dish, its in the glass.

 

If its in the glass, doesn't mean its in the dish.

[djyee100]

...Thinking about it, if one chooses red wine it might be logical to go with a big blended brand that wants a consistent product.

 

I was tracking down a beef stew recipe online and the blogger liked this red wine blend from Trader Joe's:

http://jasonswineblog.com/2009/10/29/2007-trentatre-rosso/

 

ETA: more recent review of this wine here:

http://scwinejoe.blogspot.com/2014/01/trader-joes-wine1-2012-33-trentatre.html

 

Edited December 24, 2014 by djyee100 (log)