Don't Wash Your Raw Chicken

[Martin Fisher]

Ruhlman discusses Alton Brown's point of view on this issue which is "We all need to calm the fuck down!"

Ruhlman post

ages his egg nog for a year

Make that 2 years.

http://ruhlman.com/2008/12/happy-new-year/

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I have a chicken to cook tonight. I intend to wash it in the sink. I also plan to roast the chicken for three hours. And sanitize my digestive tract with alcohol... just to be safe.

[jsager01]

and i suppose you will not add any ' raw' spices or even pepper at the table, as per the NYT and the multi year research by the US FDA, check out link on this thread:

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/145587-nytimes-on-contaminated-spices/

and also dont add any hot sauce as the nasties will survive any commercial canning or bottling, as per

"Hot Sauce That Packs More Than Heat"

and in addition to sanitizing your digestive tract, did you remember to also sanitize the sink and your hands.......

i wash chicken before cooking and for many reasons, except paranoia about food poisoning.

" it is dangerous to eat, it is more dangerous to live"

[JoNorvelleWalker]

and i suppose you will not add any ' raw' spices or even pepper at the table, as per the NYT and the multi year research by the US FDA, check out link on this thread:

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/145587-nytimes-on-contaminated-spices/

and also dont add any hot sauce as the nasties will survive any commercial canning or bottling, as per

"Hot Sauce That Packs More Than Heat"

and in addition to sanitizing your digestive tract, did you remember to also sanitize the sink and your hands.......

i wash chicken before cooking and for many reasons, except paranoia about food poisoning.

" it is dangerous to eat, it is more dangerous to live"

The chicken currently is at two hours thirty seven minutes and counting. Almost time to eat. I've been pre-sanitizing for a couple hours now, thanks, but I don't waste good alcohol on my sink. Nor on the floor, which I confess got a bit bloody.

I don't cook with black pepper however I use it heavily at the table. I don't have a subscription to the NYT either.

[dcarch]

Now many supermarkets (in NYC) have sanitary wipes for shoppers to sanitize their push carts. I wonder how many people have died before that.

I have been to office buildings with those wipes for elevator button users.

dcarch

[huiray]

http://www.minnpost.com/max-about-town/2011/12/germ-warfare-new-comic-anthology-about-whats-eating-us

Disclaimer: I have no connection to the authors and have no financial interests involved. :-)

Edited September 2, 2013 by huiray (log)

[scubadoo97]

Exposure to germs is necessary. Your immune system depends on it

[quiet1]

Now many supermarkets (in NYC) have sanitary wipes for shoppers to sanitize their push carts. I wonder how many people have died before that.

I have been to office buildings with those wipes for elevator button users.

dcarch

Hey, my mom uses the cart wipes. To be fair, she has a compromised immune system and is at risk from people coughing and sneezing all over everything, particularly during cold and flu season. She only usually wipes the handle area, though. Do people wipe the whole cart?

(She does other stuff, too, like tries not to touch her face since that's normally how you actually make yourself sick, by touching something with germs and then rubbing your nose/eye/mouth and transferring the germs to a hospitable environment.)

Washing chicken has never been a big thing, though - generally something gets rinsed if it seems to need it, and gets left alone otherwise. And imo kitchen sinks and other food prep areas should be materials such that you can scrub them down easily anyway. I had some kind of plastic-y sink in one house I rented and I hated it because it felt like so much more work to get and keep it clean compared to a nice stainless steel sink bowl.

[Smithy]

Ruhlman discusses Alton Brown's point of view on this issue which is "We all need to calm the fuck down!"

Ruhlman post

Ruhlman is the guy who...keeps stock on the stove top, unheated, for days.

Not according to the above-cited Ruhlman article.

I'm in the "we need to relax about this a bit" camp. We collectively, in this country, seem to be breeding superbugs with our quasi-ubiquitous use of antibacterial agents. OTOH I certainly agree that people with compromised immune systems - that probably includes most elderly people - need to be more careful than most.

Back to the question at hand: if water is plentiful enough, I usually rinse meat to get rid of the stray stuff, then pat it dry and go on about my business. In all honesty, I probably do it as much because I was raised that way as for any more logical reasons, but thinking about it, I think I'll continue to do it. I do not use such a vigorous spray that it's splashing all over the counter: that's messy and wasteful. I would not take a friend to task who chose not to rinse meat.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

What is the current best practice?  (Now, after almost three years later.)

 

I have read that these days one shouldn't rinse one's chicken but instead rely on the oven heat to destroy any pathogens.

 

So I tried this.  But for the benefit of anyone who is not familiar with supermarket chicken in America, chickens are sold in impervious, blast proof plastic bags.  Bags that are filled, like water balloons, with red liquid.  Keeping as far as I could from the sink, I placed a dishwasher proof plastic cutting board down on the stovetop, put the chicken on the board, and had at it with my ten inch, heavy chef knife.

 

I split the chicken cleanly.  The aforementioned red liquid went over the stovetop, rug, and floor.

 

The chicken halves needed washing anyhow to clean out the kidneys...at least as I believe they are.  I've dissected earthworms and pigs -- but never, as best I can recall, an actual culinary fowl.  Not to remove the kidneys is gross and disgusting, at least to this white Caucasian girl.

 

So instead of contaminating the environs of the sink, I soaked the stove and rug and floor, in addition, of course, to the sink itself and me.  Much bleach and a shower later, I can't help but think there must be a better way.

 

And it will take lots and lots of ethanol between now and dinner to counteract the horrid chlorine odor.

[Thanks for the Crepes]

@JoNorvelleWalker, as I am also usually confined now to supermarket Big Ag chickens, raised and processed in abominable conditions tolerated only here in the good old USA, as far as I know. I also remove the kidneys, as you do. I pop them out with a table (blunt point) knife. They are waste removal organs, taste terrible to me and leak dark and nasty tasty stuff into the thigh meat (my favorite piece) when cooked intact in their little bone sockets on either side of the spine. You might be surprised how much whiter and tastier the thigh meat cooks up after removing the kidneys vs. not.

 

Before I even take the chicken from the fridge, I wash my hands and both sinks in hot soapy water thoroughly. I remove all things like cutting boards, sink stoppers and sponges from around the potential splash area. No other food is out when I'm working on chicken, EVER. I clean up all water splashes, so I will know if I've inadvertently splashed any contaminated water while cleaning and cutting up my chicken. I take out baking pans, racks, or wraps and bags if I plan on freezing. I spray or oil pans and/or racks so they are ready to receive the chicken or pieces, then place close to the sink so nothing drips on the counter. I wash the chicken I get very carefully to minimize splashing, and rinse kidney bits and other flotsam down into the garbage disposal. If I'm cooking it whole, I transfer it to the prepared pan with rack. If cutting into pieces, I wash my hands and dry my hands very thoroughly again before picking up my knife. After cutting up, I either transfer the pieces to the pan or wash and dry my hands again before wrapping anything that will be frozen with the clean hand/dirty hand method. I just place the chicken on pieces of plastic wrap that I've laid out on the counters with clean hands. Then I wash and dry my hands again and wrap the chicken pieces up. I wash and dry my hands again and place the wrapped chicken into freezer bags. Then I wash my hands again, just in case I got a drop of potential contamination on them and seal up the bags and place in the freezer. If I'm cooking any, I put it in the oven, set the timer, and go about the task of cleaning the sinks and counters. If I've splashed any, I can tell since I cleaned up all the water before I started.

 

It's a PITA, but I think a necessary one. I don't believe everything the government comes out with. Especially not after the way victims of Katrina were treated, and I remember a 1987 60 minutes segment entitled "Fecal Soup", that referred to the way that mainstream chickens are "washed" and processed. I've tried to find this original video, but to no luck. Apparently, I'm not the only one who remembers it, though. No way, am I not washing that chicken, even if it is like handling nuclear waste.

 

 

[Shel_B]

2 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

So I tried this.  But for the benefit of anyone who is not familiar with supermarket chicken in America, chickens are sold in impervious, blast proof plastic bags.  Bags that are filled, like water balloons, with red liquid.  Keeping as far as I could from the sink, I placed a dishwasher proof plastic cutting board down on the stovetop, put the chicken on the board, and had at it with my ten inch, heavy chef knife.

 

13 minutes ago, Thanks for the Crepes said:

[...] as I am also usually confined now to supermarket Big Ag chickens, raised and processed in abominable conditions tolerated only here in the good old USA, as far as I know.

 

Are you saying that you don't have a decent poultry store near you, where you're not relegated to such terrible chickens?

[Thanks for the Crepes]

24 minutes ago, Shel_B said:

Are you saying that you don't have a decent poultry store near you, where you're not relegated to such terrible chickens?

 

I can and do sometimes buy free range organic chickens, and they taste like chicken perfume compared to the mainstream ones, Shel. Cary has some halal meat available for those who can afford it too, but kosher is hard to find around here. I helped my grandparents process the free range chickens they raised on their farm when I lived with them, and also ate the free range pork they raised. It was hands down, the best meat I will probably ever have the privilege to eat.

 

Trouble is that not all of us are blessed with enough money to buy whatever we want all the time. I wish I was lucky enough to not know that. I just feel fortunate that I'm not hungry these days and have a roof over my head.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

1 hour ago, Shel_B said:

 

 

Are you saying that you don't have a decent poultry store near you, where you're not relegated to such terrible chickens?

 

I have a more than decent poultry purveyor nearby, but not quite within walking distance.  A quite exceptionably good poultry supplier -- but sadly that does not help me much.

[Deryn]

What are these 'poultry stores' you talk of? I have never even heard of one, much less seen one, to my knowledge. The only thing they sell is poultry?

[Shel_B]

2 hours ago, Deryn said:

What are these 'poultry stores' you talk of? I have never even heard of one, much less seen one, to my knowledge. The only thing they sell is poultry?

 

Well, I cannot speak for others, but here in my area, we have a couple of stores that specialize in poultry - chicken, duck, goose, but also rabbit and pork, maybe a little lamb.  They sell eggs as well, plus a few other things, including charcuterie.  They process the chicken into stock for resale, too.  Consider them like a good butcher shop that specializes in poultry.  This is the shop I frequent.

 

I will not buy poultry at a supermarket or stores like Costco.  The quality of their birds is, to my standards, below par.  Commercial poultry of the type they sell is an abomination - everything wrapped or packed in plastic, their providers often having to recall their product for contamination, birds washed in fecal-filled water and loaded with antibiotics, etc.  And their chicken doesn't have much flavor, either.

 

[blue_dolphin]

I did a search for poultry shops in my area and came up with Whole Foods and Healthy Pet pet shop !

[kayb]

Here in northeast Arkansas, we're fairly fortunate; there are a couple of poultry farmers/sellers in the area, and at least one health food store sells locally grown and processed chicken. I buy mine, whole birds, directly from the farm, about four at a time, and keep them in the freezer. I ALWAYS wash the birds, rinsing them and picking out bits of entrails missed in the cleaning process; these are definitely not kosher chickens, as they have a fair amount of blood left in them and that does not add to the taste.

 

But when it's washed and roasted or braised, oh, my, it's good chicken. From the chicken Daughter No. 2 roasted (photo on dinner thread recently), I just yesterday picked off the meat and made a really good chicken salad with mango, mandarin orange sections, grapes, almonds, mayo, lime juice and curry powder. Pretty good stuff.

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

4 hours ago, Deryn said:

What are these 'poultry stores' you talk of? I have never even heard of one, much less seen one, to my knowledge. The only thing they sell is poultry?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggstown_Quail_Farm

 

I wish they were a bit closer.  I'm told they have a table at the local farmers' market (that I could actually walk to) but that they don't bring raw poultry to the farmers' market except on special order.

[Arey]

I stopped buying from them after i found a piece of a machine in a pot pie.  I called to report this, and they sent me a credit slip.  But, when I tried to use the credit, they wanted me to send payment in full and the credit slip and they would send me a refund.   Furthermore, the credit would only cover the shipping cost.   And, the shipping cost they quoted was more than the shipping cost on their web site.  I ripped up the credit slip and never bought from them again.  I'd rather eat Marie Callender pot pies.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

@Arey that is shameful customer service.  I've not bought their pies, only the raw poultry when I could find it.  Though I stopped buying Marie Callender when I had a problem with a pie.  Unfortunately now I cannot recall what the problem was.

 

That being said I'm still wondering what is the best practice for dealing with raw chicken in the kitchen.

 

[Deryn]

I am thinking we all need to buy fairly high sided blow up kiddie's swimming pools, buy a year's supply of chickens to freeze, fill up the pool with fresh cold water, put on our bathing suits, put the chickens in their wrappers in the pool, slit the packages open and roll the contents around in the pool for a while, remove from pool, hang up to dry on the clothesline, take a shower and put the suit in the washer. Take a good supply of large plastic bags out to the clothesline, open one under each chicken and with gloved hands knock them one by one into their respective bags. Once a year 'prep' (and if you rinse out the pool and leave it to air out in the sun for a while to 'sanitize', you can reuse it for the kids and grandkids on a hot summer's day in future).

[Martin Fisher]

Hazmat uniforms...with the local ambulance service on-call!

[pbear]

2 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

That being said I'm still wondering what is the best practice for dealing with raw chicken in the kitchen.

 

 

My $0.02's worth.  But that's all anyone can do on a topic like this.

 

Given the packaging you describe, opening in the sink makes sense.  While the chicken is there, you might as well rinse it.  FWIW, I generally rinse whole chickens but not parts.  And disagree with those who say it serves no purpose.  Obviously rinsing doesn't remove all bacteria, but it reduces the load somewhat.  That's why we shower before going into the community pool.

 

Main thing is you want to work with a cutting board on the counter, preferably one with a groove around the edge to contain drips.  Of course, you should have separate boards for foods which will be cooked vs. those which will not.  (Sometimes called boards for raw and cooked, but that's not quite the distinction.)  Personally, I wear a disposable glove on my non-knife hand when handling meat, raw so I can toss the germs and cooked so I don't get germs on it.  Excellent hand washing technique will serve both purposes, but gloves are easier and faster.  IMHO, these two things - separate boards and hand hygiene - are what really matters.  Not rinsing only got a lot of press because it was novel.

 

If you want to be especially safe, sanitize everyting when you're done.  I don't bother.  Rather, I just wash up.

Edited June 23, 2016 by pbear (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Thanks, I wore blue gloves on both hands -- plus a cut-resistant glove under the nitrile glove on the non-knife hand.  The grooved cutting board, in retrospect, would have been a much better choice...but I wanted that one for the mai tai.  I've found that if the fowl is washed and dried it can be broken down on a non-grooved board without (much of) a flood.

 

Typically I open the poorly designed poultry packages in the sink using a small Henckels knife that I don't mind putting through the dishwasher.

 

I like to place the cutting board on the stovetop rather than on the counter because the stovetop is about to be sanitized by the 500 deg F. oven underneath it.  Not to mention that my wretched apartment counters are too low for knifework.