Sous vide short ribs, times, and temperatures

[rotuts]

just think of the meat the second time around as 'regular' cooked refrigerated meat; ie its not pasteurized now.

Edited February 14, 2014 by rotuts (log)

[gavinprice]

Hi Rotuts

Thanks for taking the time to reply. When you say second time round do you mean when I have reheated it after having sous vide it the first time and then chilling it in the ice bath and then reheating?

I know normally you can re freeze cooked meats and reheat them once but am unsure after cooking it the way I have?

Gavin

[rotuts]

The point is that after opening the packet the contents are still 'cooked' but no longer pasteurized. you then just treat the contents as cooked meat. follow the rules then for cooked meat.

ie

" I have some leftovers and wondered whether or not it would be safe to refreeze the meat for reheating again? "

its now regular cooked meat. treat it as such.

Edited February 14, 2014 by rotuts (log)

[Mollie]

I know this thread is old, but thought I'd share in case others are looking. I've done baby backs a couple of times now with very good results. I seal them, 3-4 per pouch, with a pinch of salt, a pinch of pepper, and a few drops of liquid smoke. I left them in the bath for 48 hours at 144-146. We finished them on the gas grill with high heat (either with a little BBQ sauce or not) and they were moist, falling off the bone and very tender. They were great without any BBQ sauce, though some people prefer sauce on all meat. We'll be trying them again soon.

[Ranz]

We don't get baby backs readily here in SA, but when I get good spare ribs, I brine them with a herb mix, salt and liquid smoke, rub them with pepper, a masala mix and garlic powder and sous vide them for 48 hours at around 57C (134F0. Finish them on a braai (bbq), with a sauce - usually from MC - though I've just acquired a blowtorch so will be trying that out.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I cooked my 72 hr short ribs at 60.5 C (thanks to lesliec).  I browned them along with roast carrots and potatoes with rosemary, grains of paradise, and mint.  To be picky I over cooked the carrots and got everything a bit to salty.  But wow, was it good.

 

I have one more pouch of ribs (rib) and am wondering how to serve it.

[lesliec]

Glad it worked, Jo. They are just slightly wonderful, aren't they?

I'm a believer in keeping it simple. I had a couple of fresh sage leaves in with mine as they cooked. A bit of salt and pepper after searing, and some of the bag juices (boiled to reduce slightly) over the top.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

How did you sear yours, may I ask?  I removed the bones (which just fell out) and turned my pieces in the 400 deg F hot lard (lovely Modernist Cuisine pressure cooker lard) in which the carrots and potatoes were over roasting.  Then browned the pieces in the oven for about fifteen minutes.

 

I did a wine reduction of the bag juices with a butter swirl but I don't think it added anything.

 

When I reheat the leftover piece, still sealed in its bag, should I use 60.5 deg C, a lower temperature, or should I just brown cold from the refrigerator?

 

Which reminds me:  on their website MC calls for (or at least strongly suggests) double bagging the ribs when cooking this long.  Yet I don't recall any mention of double bagging in the MC books.  My three bags held up well, no leaks or other problems.  No strange smells, as some have reported, nor anything else untoward.

[lesliec]

I seared mine in rice bran oil in a very hot cast-iron pan, maybe a minute each side. They shouldn't need oven time after what they've just been through.

I've seen suggestions to blunt the ends of bones with paper towels or foil, but I've never bothered with short ribs, which are pretty blunt anyway. Double bagging is if you don't entirely trust your seals. I double-seal for that reason. I've heard of FoodSaver bags letting go at the sides but I don't think it's happened to me. It really comes down to your level of paranoia.

Reheating: I don't think I'd go any higher than maybe 55. The things are cooked; you're not going to get them any more tender. Browning from cold risks a cool middle. Not a safety issue, just not as nice.

[cbuck1]

The same thing happened to me.  My wife wouldn't even taste them they smelled so bad.  But I ate several and they tasted fine and the texture was exquisite.  But I don't know what caused the smell.  I used ziplok bags, and one of the bags did break during cooking, requiring me to pull out the ribs, clean out the water, and repackage.  But the smell was in all the ribs, not just those from that bag.  The ribs were also from two different sources, so I think I can rule out the quality of the meat.  One batch was from the supermarket, the other from Whole Foods.  72 hours at 132.  They still smelled after serious searing on the BBQ.  I'm stymied.

Edited June 11, 2014 by cbuck1 (log)

[gfweb]

What did it smell like?

[scubadoo97]

Done boneless short ribs a few times and have never experienced it. Yet

[JPeac2]

All - 

 

Great thread! I have been reading through this and a couple others in prep for a 10lb short rib cook for this coming weekend. 

 

I have not done any long cooks and have used all zip-lock bags. I have read conflicting commentary about whether or not to use zip lock bags for the 72 hour short rib cook. 

 

Any thoughts from the group here? Trying to avoid buying a vacuum sealer just for this cook (although I know I would use it other times). 

 

Thanks for all the efforts!

[scubadoo97]

I don't have a chamber vac but would seriously miss my foodsaver since having one now for a few years. It was the first item I put in my cart after rejoining Costco. I do use it for SV for many things but boy does meat and fish stay well in the freezer and cheese no longer molds, the bad kind

[nickrey]

All - 

 

Great thread! I have been reading through this and a couple others in prep for a 10lb short rib cook for this coming weekend. 

 

I have not done any long cooks and have used all zip-lock bags. I have read conflicting commentary about whether or not to use zip lock bags for the 72 hour short rib cook. 

 

Any thoughts from the group here? Trying to avoid buying a vacuum sealer just for this cook (although I know I would use it other times). 

 

Thanks for all the efforts!

If you freeze any meat, buy the sealer. It increases longevity.

[Mendel C-k]

Hi guys,

I may be able to help with the temperature range stuff...though you guys may already know this stuff, if so, please disregard.

 

Basically, enzymes are biological catalysts that are proteins. The reason enzymes work is because of their specific conformation or shape. The primary structure of a protein is the sequence of amino acids held by amide bonds (these will not break at cooking temperatures on their own). The secondary structure (the way these chains of amino acids are organised) is held together by hydrogen bonds. These are considerably weaker and break at different temperatures depending on the electronegativity of the atom the hydrogen atom is attached to, but this can be between 1-150 KJ/Mol. The tertiary structure is held by disulphide bonds (again, covalent bonds so quite strong). The active site of the enzyme, the bit that actually does the catalytic activity - e.g. cleaving proteins and breaking down collagen (by breaking those amide bonds) - is held in its specific shape by many weak bonds and attractions - including Hydrogen bonds, Van der Waals forces, other electrostatic forces etc. - it is these that break at high temperatures and render the enzyme inactivated. 

 

However, the closer you get to this point of deactivation, the more active the enzyme becomes. This is because of the way the active site works. We all know that heat is a form of energy. as the protein gets warmer - or more accurately, as the bonds around the active site begin to vibrate more - the active site becomes more unstable. Think about it like this...If you've got a basketball ring made of metal (the active site) the ball (the substrate - or what is being catalysed by the enzymes eg. collagen) needs to arrive at a very specific angle and velocity to go in. If you made that basketball ring out of jelly or rubber, the ball could arrive at a less "perfect" angle and velocity and still go in as the ring would bend and allow the ball through. The same thing happens with the active site of the enzyme, at increasing temperature, the bonds around the active site - indeed around the whole protein - become more energetic and less stable, and thus more pliable (more like the jelly ring) and thus is more excepting of substrate and thus catalyses at greater rates. However, increase this temperature too much, and the bonds become so unstable that they break and irreversibly inactivate the enzyme.

 

That's why to get optimum catalytic activity it is important to go very close to the inactivation temp with our exceeding it. 

Now, if only we knew the specific collegenases in cows, you could find the optimum temperature and keep it at that....

 

Sorry if this was boring.

 

Also, heres a graph demonstrating the canonical enzyme activity vs temperature curve. The reason they peak at 37* C is because this is human body temp, and we want our enzymes working at their best. 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/images/add_ocr_bi02005a.gif

 

Also, some of the statements in the preceding are slightly erroneous, but for the sake of simplicity they have been used.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Mendel C-k (log)

[paulraphael]

I don't have a chamber vac but would seriously miss my foodsaver since having one now for a few years. It was the first item I put in my cart after rejoining Costco. I do use it for SV for many things but boy does meat and fish stay well in the freezer and cheese no longer molds, the bad kind

 

I use ziplocks for 36 to 72 hour cooks without issues. I use the freezer bags, and am careful to evacuate as much air as possible (usually this means having around 45ml liquid in the bag, depending on the shape of the food). I also double check that the thing is solidly zipped.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I have some 72 hour ribs in the pot anovaing as we speak.  The ribs looked pretty good.  But as I was bagging them up I noticed the package was labeled "beef chuck short ribs choice".  Did I buy the right cut?  There are what sure look like rib bones in there.  However (at least in the U.S.) I thought the chuck and the rib were different primals?

 

Now I am thoroughly confused.  Maybe it will take a second mai tai or two.

 

Be that as it may, I have started the ribs at 54 deg C, per an idea from Dave Arnold's blog.  I plan to up the temperature at some point.  Not sure yet how I will finish them.  But there is no rush.

[torolover]

I have some 72 hour ribs in the pot anovaing as we speak.  

Be that as it may, I have started the ribs at 54 deg C, per an idea from Dave Arnold's blog.  

Edited January 17, 2015 by torolover (log)

[pbear]

Jo, a little googling turned up a link to this USDA document which defines the difference between the two types of short rib.  See pp. 42-43, Items No. 123 and 130.  I tried copying in the text but it was a mess.  In any event, yes, chuck short rib is a legitimate cut.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Jo, a little googling turned up a link to this USDA document which defines the difference between the two types of short rib.  See pp. 42-43, Items No. 123 and 130.  I tried copying in the text but it was a mess.  In any event, yes, chuck short rib is a legitimate cut.

[pbear]

Smaller mainly.  At least that's what this article says.  (it's the article where I found the link, btw.)

[ChrisTaylor]

Note to self/others: 72 hours/60C as per the barbecue dinner in Modernist Cuisine isn't very much. I get that they were going for 'barbecue' as opposed to 'steak' but ... yeah ... no. The East Texas-style barbecue sauce was nice, though.

[scubadoo97]

Here is a good article with pictures of the 3 types of beef ribs

http://www.chefs-resources.com/Beef-Short-Ribs

[rotuts]

pb:  nice ref.  saved on the DeskTop.

 

also nice ref. scuba !

Edited January 17, 2015 by rotuts (log)