Your most disliked trend in the food industry.

[pastrygirl]

After the dinner I had tonight, I have to say food that is difficult to eat. Huge whole-leaf salads piled on tiny plates or in bowls that make it hard to cut seem to be everywhere. Food that itself is hard to cut, like the roasted radicchio I had tonight. Tasty, but it turned sort of slippery and stringy, couldn't hold it down well with a fork, and the butter knife was going nowhere. Server agreed it was hard to cut and brought a steak knife, still no luck. Entree was shell-on spot prawns with lots of roe. The shells did not peel off easily at all, but in chunks and sprays, there may still be some prawn in my hair. I don't want to struggle, or feel like I am deficient in some way for not being able to feed myself, or ruin clothing. If the shells had been fried crispy I would have eaten them, but they weren't.

I'm also not loving drowning everything in olive oil. A little good olive oil and some salt will elevate just about any ingredient. But oil on everything, oil on top of cheese, oil on top of butter, oil soaking through the crostino to puddle on the plate, oil by the slosh instead of the drizzle ... TOO MUCH!

[Mjx]

Too late for us; we've settled in, and like it here! To quote the only fridge magnet I ever willingly bought, we heard 'Come to the dark side, we have cookies', and thought 'Fantastic', then looked at the recipe, and decided to fraction the butter, do distinctly different things to each fraction, recombine them and add them to the dough using carefully measured pressure, speed and temperature, then chilled, froze, thawed and formed the cookies, and are now planning to bake them in the microwave... to see what happens).

That... is why you fail.

Never! An education is never a waste

And now for something completely different:

Although culinary extremism of any sort heads my list of disliked trends, the increasing difficulty in finding (at least in NYC) yogurt that is not fat-free runs a not-that-distant second. I have nothing against the fat free product as such, but I'd prefer to be able to make the decision on my own.

[PSmith]

Must admit that I am not a big fan of modernist cooking. To me there is something a bit "Emperor's New Clothes" about some of the techniques and gadgets. I have yet to eat something that was cooked for me via a £300 Sous Vide that came out better than a £20 slow cooker. But as "nickrey" above states - it could be more about the chef than the method.

My interests lie in the ingredients. Very few professional chefs seem to make an effort to source rare varieties of veg. Rare breeds meat is available, sometimes the menu all but lists the GPS coordinates of the animal's birth - but veg remains the poor cousin. The difference in taste between a commercially grown carrot and a properly grown one (doesn't even need to be organic) is immense. Two different vegetables IMHO. Anyone ever eaten a purple carrot?

Don't get me wrong, I am not a vegetarian, but there is too much emphasis on the meat.

[gfweb]

Really don't like servers clearing plates till everyone is done. It makes the slower eater feel rushed and gives those who finished nothing to play with until the turtle finishes chewing each bite 23 times. I wouldn't clear plates in this situation at home even tho I want to.

I want salt and pepper on the table and a glass of water ASAP.

I do not want olive oil drizzled on anything and certainly not bread or charcuterie. Ewww.

The server should address me in a friendly respectful manner, not a chummy one. We are not " you two" damnit.

[ChrisTaylor]

Must admit that I am not a big fan of modernist cooking. To me there is something a bit "Emperor's New Clothes" about some of the techniques and gadgets. I have yet to eat something that was cooked for me via a £300 Sous Vide that came out better than a £20 slow cooker. But as "nickrey" above states - it could be more about the chef than the method.

My interests lie in the ingredients. Very few professional chefs seem to make an effort to source rare varieties of veg. Rare breeds meat is available, sometimes the menu all but lists the GPS coordinates of the animal's birth - but veg remains the poor cousin. The difference in taste between a commercially grown carrot and a properly grown one (doesn't even need to be organic) is immense. Two different vegetables IMHO. Anyone ever eaten a purple carrot?

Don't get me wrong, I am not a vegetarian, but there is too much emphasis on the meat.

Odd. In Australia almost every fine dining restaurant I've been to seems to take joy in tracking down the most obscure vegetable varieties they can. Good luck finding half of the plant ingredients in the books of Peter Gilmore, Ben Shewry or Mark Best.

[huiray]

(snip)

The kitchen is our lab.

There's no denying the geekery, but the people who seem most drawn to Modernism as an approach tend to be equally geeky (science/technology) in other parts of their lives; I'm just not seeing some sort of universal snobbery.

Can there be a sometimes perplexing tendency to vacuum seal/cook everything sous vide? Yep. But I again, I don't see snobbery, I see geekery and a fondness for pushing buttons.

(snip)

When you dig into the physics and chemistry of food, you have the opportunity to not only create modern flight so fancy, but to find alternate routes to traditional favourites.

(snip)

I don't have a problem with people engaging in the discussion of modernist cuisine, nor do I have issues with the technology employed. I did co-found this Society, and when we did, our objectives were to embrace everything of a culinary nature. I'm glad people have a place to discuss it.

HOWEVER. I do think that technology and the techniques should be applied where they make sense, and that modernism is not the only way or the right way to approach cooking. I also do not think the application of the technology or techniques are necessarily practical or sensible for a home cook or enthusiast. Basically it boils down to use it where it makes sense and is practical, and too much of one thing is not necessarily good.

As a practicing technologist, I am a bit turned off by the overwhelming use of modernism in cuisine. I see cooking as a fairly low tech activity that is meant to be enjoyed to escape the modern trappings I have to deal with on a day to day basis, that is enhanced occasionally by the use of enabling technology when it is warranted -- like the use of high-end BBQ thermometers/thermal control systems or say PID's in espresso machines where precision is required to produce a better end product.

This is all absolutely fair and reasonable, BUT. There are people who find the idea of going amok with modern technology really relaxing, and there are those who are very detail oriented, who find fine-grained control soothing. We love the little gadgets that give us precise, accurate information! Being able to fine-tune a recipe feels really great!

(snip)

Well, I've been a research chemist for several decades. I've even had occasion to do battle with the Patent Offices on several continents (via the corporate lawyers and agents) numerous times. Yet I have little, if any, interest in Modernist Cuisine and especially find those who use it excessively (both chefs and amateurs) to be...excessive. I guess that puts me in the "Jason Perlow camp". :-)

There *are* some who use it sparingly and well. I would include the Voltaggio brothers amongst them. Grant Achatz, I find excessive and off-putting.

[Pierogi]

This is all absolutely fair and reasonable, BUT. There are people who find the idea of going amok with modern technology really relaxing, and there are those who are very detail oriented, who find fine-grained control soothing. We love the little gadgets that give us precise, accurate information! Being able to fine-tune a recipe feels really great!

Let me phrase it another way.

Use my culinary powers as a Jedi Master for good rather than evil I must. Modernism is the Dark Side. Together the light and the dark you must have, but overall, controlled the Dark Side must be.

EVIL THE DARK LORD MHYRVOLD IS. BEWARE THE PATH OF HIS EVIL BOOK, FOR IN IT THERE IS ONLY FRUSTRATION AND DESPAIR AND EMPTY WALLETS.

You, sir, are my new hero.

[Jason Perlow]

Well, I've been a research chemist for several decades. I've even had occasion to do battle with the Patent Offices on several continents (via the corporate lawyers and agents) numerous times. Yet I have little, if any, interest in Modernist Cuisine and especially find those who use it excessively (both chefs and amateurs) to be...excessive. I guess that puts me in the "Jason Perlow camp". :-)

There *are* some who use it sparingly and well. I would include the Voltaggio brothers amongst them. Grant Achatz, I find excessive and off-putting.

I think there is a place for folks like Achatz and other chefs such as Ferran Adria or Jose Andres which pioneer in molecular gastronomy as well as modernism and avant garde cuisine and make mistakes and do the sort of science experiments others do not have the time or resources to undertake. But this is strictly in the realm of very fine dining and a very particular type of fine dining customer that are willing to be guinea pigs for these chefs and are willing to take expensive risks on degustation menus that will not necessarily be home runs with every dish.

That being said this doesn't belong in every fine dining restaurant and most certainly not in the home, and it is ridiculous to think that this is how normal culinarians should practice their art or their passion.

I dont know if I want to exemplify a "camp" per se but I think us traditionalists have been hiding in the closet while the modernists and molecularists have been running amok.

[Ashen]

I think it is the ethos of the hardcore modernists that I have the most problem with, new techniques and ingredients have been added to cooking since the first time someone dropped something in the fire.

Probably in 20years SV will be considered so outdated it will be compared to such luddite practices as braising or poaching. Shudder.

You will need to use an energizer that vibrates each type of molecule in the meat at a specific frequency coupled with orange beam laser at 1.21 gigawatts for 220 nanoseconds for the perfect shortribs

Edited December 31, 2012 by Ashen (log)

[Mjx]

. . . .

That being said this doesn't belong in every fine dining restaurant and most certainly not in the home, and it is ridiculous to think that this is how normal culinarians should practice their art or their passion.

I dont know if I want to exemplify a "camp" per se but I think us traditionalists have been hiding in the closet while the modernists and molecularists have been running amok.

What?! Why would traditionalists hide in the closet?! Those who are interested in Modernism are running amok?

And Modernism has no business in the home kitchen?! Seems a bit draconian and unfair, besides...

Okay, hang on, let's take this scenario: You're invited to dinner, you really enjoy the food and conversation, then, after dinner, while your host is moving the last of the dishes back to the kitchen, you tag along, since you're in the mddle of discussing something. You notice the kitchen has a lot of Modernist equipment, and inquiry reveals that the meal was prepared using quite a lot of Modernist techniques and ingredients.

Would this suddenly ruin your evening (please understand that this is not intended as either snide or rhetorical)?

Why should it matter how the food was prepared?

Why must there be the assumption that it's either/or, Modernism or tradition (which, again, was once cutting edge in its own right)?

I'm fascinated and excited by much of Modernism, but nothing makes me happier than the sight and scent of a bunch of chickens roasting on a spit in a colossal stone fireplace; I don't find this odd or conflicting, and none of those I know who are interested in Modernism seem to have insisted on planting their flag squarely in one camp either, it's just not how an appreciation of food works.

Sure, extremists and snobs exist, but they always have (rememeber 'nouvelle cuisine'?), and who cares about them? They're having no fun anyway, and if there's been an uptick in resturants featuring Modernis cooking, there still remain plenty that are as traditional as they ever were.

Let's make food, dammit, not war!

[Jason Perlow]

. . . .

That being said this doesn't belong in every fine dining restaurant and most certainly not in the home, and it is ridiculous to think that this is how normal culinarians should practice their art or their passion.

I dont know if I want to exemplify a "camp" per se but I think us traditionalists have been hiding in the closet while the modernists and molecularists have been running amok.

What?! Why would traditionalists hide in the closet?! Thos who are interested in Modernism are running amok?

And Modernism has no business in the home kitchen?! Seems a bit draconian and unfair, besides...

Okay, hang on, let's take this scenario: You're invited to dinner, you really enjoy the food and conversation, then, after dinner, while your host is moving the last of the dishes back to the kitchen, you tag along, since you're in the mddle of discussing something. You notice the kitchen has a lot of Modernist equipment, and inquiry reveals that the meal was prepared using quite a lot of Modernist techniques and ingredients.

The scenario is an impossible one. Anyone who knows me is well aware I would have seen the kitchen and the prep process long before eating and the conversation. I also do not tend to socialize with people that are into producing dishes based on Modernism or Molecular Gastronomy or Avant Garde cuisine in their -homes-. They don't typically pass my sniff test as people I want to be associated with because they aren't down to earth enough. I have a number of friends that are professional chefs that experiment with such things in their restaurants or catering businesses, but more often than not, they are 100 percent traditionalist when cooking at home and match my sensibilities pretty much exactly.

Modernism in my opinion is not something that one should seek to practice in the home kitchen because very few people can achieve the results necessary because they lack the equipment or the discipline. It certainly should not be undertaken unless you already have a foundation in traditional cooking techniques.

I would never attempt to practice it in my home for the same reason that I know I cannot achieve perfect sushi as I would at a top notch sushi restaurant, or Chinese food of high restaurant quality in my own kitchen because I know I lack a real wok burner. If you do have those resources, such as those of Mr. Mhyrvold, then you are not a mere human being that worries about paying their next bill or even a middle class foodie that has to judiciously spend their money, time and energy to eat and cook meals, in which case, they don't even live on the same plane of existence of mere mortals such as me and most of the people on this site. The reality that 99.999999999 percent of the people on this planet and even skilled home cooks do not possess those kind of resources, in which case, modernism is a fruitless effort and there are much more productive and enjoyable ways of spending your time with things of a culinary nature.

We should appreciate restaurant cuisine for what it is, which is the product of highly trained professionals and kitchens with the manpower and resources to produce them. Those chefs that can experiment with modernism and molecular and avant garde should be given the space to do so, and those who choose to try their cuisine should be given the liberties to do so, but this is a fantasy and totally impractical for even the best home cooks.

[gfweb]

So Jason, you are saying you wouldn't eat a sous vide cooked fish at a person's home, but if they poached it in hot water (skipping the plastic bag) it would be OK?

You wouldn't practice MC techniques at home because you aren't as good as someone who devoted his life to cooking. The extension of this logic is that you shouldn't cook anything at home using even traditional methods because you aren't Jacques Pepin or Wolfgang Puck.

I suspect that you are just lobbing a grenade to stir some people up. Carry on then.

[Jason Perlow]

So Jason, you are saying you wouldn't eat a sous vide cooked fish at a person's home, but if they poached it in hot water (skipping the plastic bag) it would be OK?

You wouldn't practice MC techniques at home because you aren't as good as someone who devoted his life to cooking. The extension of this logic is that you shouldn't cook anything at home using even traditional methods because you aren't Jacques Pepin or Wolfgang Puck.

I suspect that you are just lobbing a grenade to stir some people up. Carry on then.

I don't have a problem with Sous Vide. It's a perfectly legit technique for preparing fish and other proteins. But to say that for example, a Sous Vide lobster is superior to a regular butter poached lobster made with far less expensive equipment is somewhat disingenuous. Sous Vide was developed A LONG TIME AGO for a reason, to hold and cook meat at a low temperature for a long time in specific food service scenarios. It makes zero sense in a home kitchen and probably also most restaurants looking to achieve similar results with traditional poaching.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Jason Perlow (log)

[PSmith]

Okay, hang on, let's take this scenario: You're invited to dinner, you really enjoy the food and conversation, then, after dinner, while your host is moving the last of the dishes back to the kitchen, you tag along, since you're in the mddle of discussing something. You notice the kitchen has a lot of Modernist equipment, and inquiry reveals that the meal was prepared using quite a lot of Modernist techniques and ingredients.

Actually - that scenario will never happen.

Pretty sure that any home chef who had used a Sous Vide to cook dinner would be crowing on about it all through the meal.

I think for me the issue with modernist cooking is the enthusiasm of those that use it emits an air of eltistism against us traditionalist luddites. It is probably not intentional - it is just them being enthusiastic, but it can often cross the line from sharing to bragging.

[Jason Perlow]

Okay, hang on, let's take this scenario: You're invited to dinner, you really enjoy the food and conversation, then, after dinner, while your host is moving the last of the dishes back to the kitchen, you tag along, since you're in the mddle of discussing something. You notice the kitchen has a lot of Modernist equipment, and inquiry reveals that the meal was prepared using quite a lot of Modernist techniques and ingredients.

Actually - that scenario will never happen.

Pretty sure that any home chef who had used a Sous Vide to cook dinner would be crowing on about it all through the meal.

Forget through the meal... any of my friends who is likely to do that will phone or email me about it weeks in advance. But then again, I don't have friends that use Sous Vide baths in their homes, they use them in their restaurants, if that.

[gfweb]

Forget through the meal... any of my friends who is likely to do that will phone or email me about it weeks in advance. But then again, I don't have friends that use Sous Vide baths in their homes, they use them in their restaurants, if that.

Sounds like reverse elitism to me.

[PSmith]

Sounds like reverse elitism to me.

Ah - the stock reply.

Have a read of this - which I have also llnked to in my latest blog posting - "When does sharing become bragging?"

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444184704577587091630924000.html

[Jason Perlow]

Forget through the meal... any of my friends who is likely to do that will phone or email me about it weeks in advance. But then again, I don't have friends that use Sous Vide baths in their homes, they use them in their restaurants, if that.

Sounds like reverse elitism to me.

This is the "most disliked trend in the food industry" thread, right? This is an open discussion and what we talk about here is by definition probably going to be divisive in nature. I mean, I did ask, "am I gonna get yelled at?"

As with any subject matter, whether it is politics, religion, sex, music, art... FOOD. Anywhere you have impassioned people engaging in discussion, there are going to be divisive issues and you are going to disagree with people and fundamental aspects of their belief systems. Food is no different. The key is that we permit such dissent and diversity, and we allow people to have their own points of view. Otherwise I don't think we wouldn't have bothered to create this organization in the first place. I sure has hell would not have bothered.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Jason Perlow (log)

[nickrey]

Extremism on either side makes me shudder. Personally I've been cooking for over forty years and have always explored new techniques and adopted those that produce excellent results, including sous vide.

Cooking is like any skill, practice it and you will become better. Sure I won't cook thousands of poached eggs in very short time as will a chef in a busy breakfast restaurant but equally I've been in many restaurants for breakfast where the eggs are uniformly mediocre despite the cook's experience. I worked for many months to get on top of the technique of poaching eggs and can say that they are better than the majority of restaurant cooked poached eggs. And yes, I prefer traditional poached eggs over onsen-type eggs cooked sous vide.

I've been cooking sous vide for close on four years and use it where appropriate. I've even taken my techniques and cooked 50 serves of a technically challenging dish for my wine and food club. This was something that I couldn't do without learning and mastering the sous vide cooking process. To be able to do this without working full time in a kitchen means that I must practice it at home.

Some of us blur the line between home cook and professional. As do some of your friends who post to this forum, even those who talk you into using a PiD for your coffee machine. I seem to remember that he uses sous vide cooking as part of his broad cooking repertoire.

[Jason Perlow]

Some of us blur the line between home cook and professional. As do some of your friends who post to this forum, even those who talk you into using a PiD for your coffee machine. I seem to remember that he uses sous vide cooking as part of his broad cooking repertoire.

He does I believe. But I would be remiss if I did not mention that Sam is a "friend" in a sense that we are more social acquaintances and do not see each other very often. In fact it has been years. Probably something I should rectify the next time I am in NYC.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Jason Perlow (log)

[Martin Fisher]

I think that the better precision and accuracy made possible by sous vide is a boon to home cooks.

[Jason Perlow]

I think that the better precision and accuracy made possible by sous vide is a boon to home cooks.

At $300 per unit to start with, it's an expensive toy if it is something you don't plan to use more than a few times a year. I don't own one and I never plan to. I'll poach my damn lobster in butter in a pot using a vacuum sealer which we use all the time instead.

Not like I'm going to poach a lobster in butter anyway. Who am I kidding.

[Martin Fisher]

I just ordered the controller and I expect to have no more than $200 invested in a set-up that will, among other things, allow me precise temp control in cheese making and sausage making (better finishing of sausages without additives.) Those are my main interests.

I do agree with you on much of the other modernist stuff, it's definitely not for me.

~Martin

[Jason Perlow]

I just ordered the controller and I expect to have no more than $200 invested in a set-up that will, among other things, allow me precise temp control in cheese making and sausage making (better finishing of sausages without additives.) Those are my main interests.

I do agree with you on much of the other modernist stuff, it's definitely not for me.

~Martin

Okay, but it sounds like you make a lot of sausages, so it sounds worthwhile.

[gfweb]

Ah - the stock reply.

Ah. That makes it no less true.