Do you have a cooking-only kitchen?

[Dianabanana]

For the last 18 years I've been dreaming of buying a certain house in my neighborhood. Two days ago I was walking past it with my dog, and just as I was telling him how someday, if it ever went up for sale, we would live there, I turned the corner and saw a lawn sign that read: FOR SALE BY OWNER.

Fast forwarding over a lot of drama, the inside turns out to be just as wonderful as the outside--and we can afford it! It's a perfectly preserved Storybook Tudor built in 1932. However. the kitchen is a kitchen for cooking only. It adjoins the dining room, and the living room is around the corner, completely cut off from the kitchen. Remodeling this house to open it up would be a travesty.

In some ways I really like the idea of kitchen as workroom. I could make it strictly functional and when guests come over they wouldn't see the mess. But I'm thinking that this is going to totally change our family dynamic. Right now our kitchen is open to the living room, with a dining bar separating them. If I'm in the kitchen, which I am nearly all the time, my husband and dogs are either at the bar or on the sofa where I can see them and talk to them. We like to be together. I can see the fireplace from the kitchen, and the TV. In this new house, if I wanted to say something to someone in the living room, I'd have to walk all the way out there. It would be frustrating, and I think we would end up spending a lot of time apart.

So, I guess I'm just wondering if there are angles to this that I'm missing. Are there other great things about a workroom kitchen that I don't know about? What have been your experiences with how different kitchen layouts affect your family dynamic?

[Shamanjoe]

The kitchen I grew up in was a long, narrow, galley-style kitchen. It was open to what we called the family room (being the biggest room in the house earned it that designation) by virtue of a half wall at that end. Consequently, whenever anybody cooked, everybody else was in the kitchen or in the family room. When I moved to a new house, the kitchen was almost completely cut off from the living room. You had to walk down a short hallway to see anybody, so everybody ended up in the kitchen, whether they were doing anything or not.

People tend to congregate in the kitchen if there's no good flow to another room, so I'd say get ready to have a crowded kitchen in your new house if you don't open it up. Even when it's a matchbox-sized kitchen, people always tend to crowd in, rather than staying in another room.

[Jaymes]

When I was young and growing up, almost all of the kitchens were "cooking-only." The only ones that were not were called "country kitchens" and were big enough for a table in the middle. Nobody had a kitchen that opened into a living room. Or a dining room either, for that matter.

My experience was that everybody wound up in the kitchen anyway, standing around, leaning against the cabinets.

I am still not a fan (at all) of the "open concept" kitchen that opens into the living room and I actually prefer a separate formal dining room as well. I loathe sitting in a nice living room, or elegant dining room, and looking at dirty dishes and pots and pans and utensils and other bits of assorted cooking debris sitting around on the kitchen countertops and piled up in the sink, all of it fairly shouting out for somebody to come clean it up. But we've had several houses with the kitchen/family room combination and I think that's ideal. To me, the informal aspects of a family room blend well with the working kitchen.

Obviously I have no idea as to the floor plan of this house but wonder if the kitchen is on an outside wall, as it most likely is, is there space on the lot to add a bump-out and make a family/hearth/TV room there?

Personally, judging from your description of the house, I'd be far more inclined to expand the kitchen into a larger informal area and combine those two instead of knocking out a wall and ruining the historical and gracious ambiance of what sounds like a lovely and elegant home.

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Edited April 8, 2010 by Jaymes (log)

[emmalish]

I have room for a small table & chairs in my kitchen, so people can congregate somewhat, but it's separated from the livingroom by a long hallway. My old apartment was much more open concept, and I could putter in the kitchen and watch tv at the same time. Now, even when I'm on my own I don't spend as much time in the kitchen as I used to. Because it does feel more like a workroom.

[jk1002]

I have my kitchen in my living room and yes I do spend much more time in it. The big but is, smell and fat settles everywhere.

Curry and Duck sometimes smells even after days.

Did you consider extending the kitchen into the dining room? I.e. you could create a prep area and just use the kitchen for active cooking.

[Shamanjoe]

I have my kitchen in my living room and yes I do spend much more time in it. The big but is, smell and fat settles everywhere.

Curry and Duck sometimes smells even after days.

How old is your ventilation system? One thing to consider in an open-concept kitchen is that if you don't suck up all the smoke/smell/what have you as soon as it's produced, it migrates to the other room.

Work-only kitchens are a little better, especially if it has two outside walls, like my kitchen. Then you can open a window and a door, and create a draft that will keep it out of the rest of the house. I guess that's one tick in the plus column for cooking-only kitchens. I've made it for three years in a cooking-only kitchen that has no ventilation except for two windows simply because it's a cooking-only, and naturally seperated. If it had been open-concept I would have needed to break down and buy a vent hood years ago.

[jk1002]

I have a circulating vent microwave combination ... It doesn't do much when it comes to preventing grease ... I have an open cookware shelf on the wall, about 3 feet away and within 2 or 3 days of cooking I can see the grease on my cookware .....

I strongly agree that a kitchen integrated into the living area is a lot of fun to work in .....

[emmalish]

I especially notice the difference when I'm cooking something that needs to be stirred semi-regularly or left to simmer for a length of time – in an integrated space I'm able to wander into the livingroom and still keep an eye on what's on the stove, while in my kitchen I'm just kinda stuck there for the duration.

[Dianabanana]

Jaymes, that's a great idea about the bump-out. We're going back on Saturday and I'll have to take a closer look to see if that would work. Although the house is already big for us, and at the edge of what we can afford, so I don't know. I'm really glad I asked this question, because you all brought up some things I hadn't considered--that I'd get people standing around in that tiny kitchen anyway, and the issue of wandering back into the kitchen to stir things. So when people drop by, they're either going to plop down in the living room and I'll have to stop cooking, or they'll come back into the kitchen and have nowhere good to hang out. Right now they plop down in the living room and I just keep right on cooking while talking to them.

I certainly was not anticipating that I'd end up feeling that my current, very modest house is superior in any way to this other one!

[David A. Goldfarb]

Tiny kitchens where you can't do much other than cook, if that, are pretty much the norm in New York City apartments. We currently have a kitchen with enough room for a small table that's hinged to one wall and can fold out of the way when necessary (we've never needed to fold it down, actually), and that's large by local standards. I like having a kitchen that's a social space where I can talk to people in the kitchen and in adjacent rooms, except when I'd rather they not get in my way. A kitchen you can close off is nice when you've got some noisy machine like an ice cream maker running that can run unattended.

[LindaK]

So much depends on your space and what you can/can't do, either because of the square footage, architecture, or your finances.

Me, I'd echo what Jaymes said about preferring some separation between the cooking area and dining/living area--but that's subjective.

Before I renovated my kitchen almost 2 yrs ago, I had a tiny galley kitchen adjacent to a larger unfinished, unheated space. No place to sit, badly lit, and--let me repeat--unheated, which in the Northeast means very uncomfortable 5 months of the year. Another standard sized doorway opened to the DR and from there to the LR. Nonetheless, invariably, guests crammed themselves into the kitchen area while I was cooking.

Needless to say, I used that empty area to expand the kitchen when I renovated (and added heat!), which means my guests can hang out nearby without being underfoot. But my reno also involved relocating the doorway between the kitchen and the DR. I could have eaasily removed the wall completely to create an open kitchen/DR/LR. But I did not. I like the separation. But I did enlarge the doorway significantly (both width and height) so that the flow between the two rooms is much more generous and dramatic, without sacrificing the sense of kitchen/DR being different spaces.

[Jaymes]

So much depends on your space and what you can/can't do, either because of the square footage, architecture, or your finances.

Me, I'd echo what Jaymes said about preferring some separation between the cooking area and dining/living area--but that's subjective.

Before I renovated my kitchen almost 2 yrs ago, I had a tiny galley kitchen adjacent to a larger unfinished, unheated space. No place to sit, badly lit, and--let me repeat--unheated, which in the Northeast means very uncomfortable 5 months of the year. Another standard sized doorway opened to the DR and from there to the LR. Nonetheless, invariably, guests crammed themselves into the kitchen area while I was cooking.

Needless to say, I used that empty area to expand the kitchen when I renovated (and added heat!), which means my guests can hang out nearby without being underfoot. But my reno also involved relocating the doorway between the kitchen and the DR. I could have eaasily removed the wall completely to create an open kitchen/DR/LR. But I did not. I like the separation. But I did enlarge the doorway significantly (both width and height) so that the flow between the two rooms is much more generous and dramatic, without sacrificing the sense of kitchen/DR being different spaces.

It would be really lovely if Miss Banana can figure out a way to enlarge that kitchen in keeping with the character of a lovely and gracious older home - maybe a nice sunporch-style room with windows overlooking what undoubtedly must be a mature landscaped back yard and garden. Even if it were not big, just enough for a breakfast bar, and a TV, and a little extra seating, perhaps in a window box, it would liven up that room and bring in more light and function.

But if that's not doable (at least not right away), I think if I were she, I'd start with your suggestion of expanding the door into the dining room, so that the flow and conversation is easier, without subjecting guests to the sort of "sausage making" equipment and noise and grease and smells, etc., that occur in a working kitchen.

_____________________

Edited April 9, 2010 by Jaymes (log)

[Toliver]

If you really like the house but not the kitchen, if you can afford it, I'd say buy the house.

You can, eventually, remodel the kitchen to your hearts content (again, if you can afford it).

Think long term, not short term.

[Jaymes]

If you really like the house but not the kitchen, if you can afford it, I'd say buy the house.

You can, eventually, remodel the kitchen to your hearts content (again, if you can afford it).

Think long term, not short term.

Excellent advice. And that's sure what I'd do. Buy it. Move in.

And then probably expand the doorway into the dining room a bit, being sure to keep with the character/style of the home - i.e., arches if there are arches, crown molding/wood trim, if there is crown molding/wood trim - etc.

And then think in terms of how I'd really like it to be sometime in the future.

It would be a shame to miss out on such a wonderful opportunity just because there's one room you'd like to change.

And besides, you don't want to disappoint your doggy. After all, you promised.

________________________

Edited April 9, 2010 by Jaymes (log)

[Amy D.]

If the kitchen joins directly onto the dining room (ie not seperated by any corridors) I don't think it needs to be as drastic a change as you fear. I would personally make the dining room a more informal area (some comfortable chairs, a tv) that becomes the hub of the household that the kitchen adjourns, then as Toliver suggested you can always remodel things at a later date.

[Anna N]

A cooking-only kitchen would be an absolute deal-breaker for me. Having lived with one for nearly 20 years I could never go back. I missed out on all the early "can-wait-to-tell" gossip and felt more like the hired help than the hostess as I slaved away alone in the kitchen while family and friends gathered in the other room. Now I live in a tiny townhouse but the kitchen and great room are completely open and I love it. My favourite house layout was a duplex we rented which had a huge kitchen/dining area that became the heart of the home. The kids played there, did homework there, we played cards there and best of all, the rest of the house, except for the bedrooms remained remarkably clean and tidy even with 3 toddlers.

[Dianabanana]

Ack, conflicting advice!

I just got back from walking my dog past it again. It's so wonderful. But the exterior wall of the kitchen (unless I'm confused, which I might be) faces the street, so I don't think we could bump out without running afoul of setback requirements.

The other food-related issue with this house is that the beautiful back yard is also shady, maybe too shady to have a vegetable garden, and I'm quite an avid gardener. The only way to bring more light in would be to cut down some of the beautiful mature locust trees in the front, which is not an option.

On the other hand, two people in my recorder group happen to live on the same block as this house, so last night at rehearsal I was able to ask them if there are any problem neighbors, aggressive dogs, etc. The things you usually only find out about after it's too late. And nope, they think it's the nicest block ever. And I would already have two friends there.

We're going back to look at it again at noon tomorrow. I'll keep you updated!

[IndyRob]

When you go back, a critical thing to check would be which walls are load bearing, and which are just dividers. This will tell you what what sort of modifications will be easy and which will involve major construction.

Wish I could help more, but I'm more of a "Get outta' my kitchen!" type .

[Jaymes]

I just keep thinking about you...

You know, a lot of it depends upon how you like to entertain. I am very fond of sit-down, plated dinners around my dining-room table that I inherited, along with my antique china cabinet, server, dishes, crystal, etc. Although I also like more casual dinner parties - backyard cookouts, girls' movie nights, football viewing, potlucks, and so forth - I absolutely would not want to give up those formal evenings. And for that, I need a nice space and appropriate furniture.

I do know that that sort of dinner party is not as popular as it once was, and that there are a great many folks that consider a real dining room to be a waste of space. If you're one of those, Dianabanana, then widening that door between the kitchen and dining room and turning the dining room into a more casual TV/family/gathering room might work well for you.

But if, on the other hand, you're the sort of person that, like me, clings stubbornly to her inalienable right to occasionally drag out the good china, silver, crystal and linens and sit everybody down around a gracious table, perhaps you could temporarily convert the current living room into the dining room.

I guess if I thought I'd really love living there, in that house, on that block, I'd go ahead and do it. And make it do in the short term while I worked out the long-term solutions in my head.

It does sound a bit, though, like you're having pretty serious second thoughts, and even really about ready to talk yourself out of it.

I wish you all the best with the decision, though. I'm sure you'll come up with whatever is right for you and the whole Banana family.

[Dianabanana]

No, I really, really want a formal dining room. Our current house doesn't have one and that's one of the things that drives me crazy about it. Who wants to serve a nice dinner in full view of piles of dirty dishes? And the dining room in the new house is so nice. It has French doors giving onto the patio (with a set of French screen doors, too), wide-plank oak floors, two built-in corner cabinets, and wainscoting, all original. Not too big, and not too small. Cozy, but not cramped.

It's a real house. A Thanksgiving house, a Christmas house. The owner's daughter lives back East, but when the time came for her to get married, she wanted to come back and get married there. That kind of house. Which makes you think that it must have been a pretty happy family living there for the past 60 years, which is nice, too. I'm just worried that I'm so in love with the idea of this house but that it might not fit the way we live. And also, I guess I'm fonder of our current house than I thought I was.

The Banana family thanks you for your thoughtful replies! They really are very helpful.

[Shamanjoe]

I know I may be making a "far into the future" suggestion, but since you love the layout and style of the house so much, and since the kitchen looks to be on the street-facing wall, it might be more suitable to just move the kitchen. Depending on layout, you could make the current kitchen a bedroom, siting room, den, etc. and either put the kitchen in an existing room, and bubble-out the side or back of the house to make a new kitchen that you could have custom-matched style-wise to the rest of the house. I understand that's a far-off option at the moment, but it's something to think about, especially if you intend to make this the house you live the rest of your life in.

[Blether]

How much table-top cooking is part of your regular eating ?

It would never be more than a partial or occasional solution, but every time you explore the delights of fondue, raclette, shabu-shabu, sukiyaki, yosenabe, kimchinabe and the rest is a chance to minimise time spent alone in the kitchen / maximise social time.

[Darienne]

I know I may be making a "far into the future" suggestion, but since you love the layout and style of the house so much, and since the kitchen looks to be on the street-facing wall, it might be more suitable to just move the kitchen. Depending on layout, you could make the current kitchen a bedroom, siting room, den, etc. and either put the kitchen in an existing room, and bubble-out the side or back of the house to make a new kitchen that you could have custom-matched style-wise to the rest of the house. I understand that's a far-off option at the moment, but it's something to think about, especially if you intend to make this the house you live the rest of your life in.

I'll second Shamanjoe's idea. We live in a century farmhouse which was so ill-used by former owners that there was no traditional order left in which to restore it. However, it allowed us to change the rooms around to suit our needs. For instance, the parlor became the master bedroom and the apiary became the kitchen. Ed cut a doorway through a load bearing wall into the new kitchen. The downstairs bathroom was ripped out and moved (of course, originally there were no bathrooms, either down or up.) And I wanted to try the open concept and so we ripped out a number of interior walls. Boarded up the original front door (which was now strangely on the side after the road was built) Added a breezeway and double garage. And so on. My only mistake was going for a quite small galley kitchen having no idea that I would change my life so much after 45 years of marriage.

(The other mistake was marrying a man whose dream was to renovate every single house we ever lived in forever and ever. )

[Emily_R]

Diana --

You didn't say in your original post if the kitchen is just cooking-only or if it is also really small. I live in an 1879 gothic victorian, and it has a cooking-only kitchen that is at the back of the house. When we were considering buying, I was really concerned, and had all kinds of ideas for how we would move the kitchen to make it more central, bust down the wall into the dining room to make it more open, etc, etc. As it turns out, the cooking only kitchen has been fine -- when we have guests, they hang out in the kitchen with me, where I've put a few stools along the wall. Is it perfect? No. But the rest of the house is, and the kitchen is big and easy to work in. So my question is whether the kitchen is cookable, even if its not currently easily accessible to the rest of the living space...

Emily

Edited April 10, 2010 by Emily_R (log)

[cbread]

I have a cooking only kitchen. When I was designing it, I didn't want a lot of traffic coming through the kitchen. I put my dining space maybe 20 feet away. So much for my plan; friends gather in the kitchen, just like everyone says. Kinda ruins my plan, but regardless I'm still happy I excluded a dining table from the kitchen area.

Once some hot food is moving towards the table, I can usually shoo the herd of friends out and attend to ongoing cooking. I'm not good at multitasking cooking multiple items when people are talking to me and I need some quiet to do any complex cooking task. Also I did not want to create the typical New England kitchen with seven doors heading every which way - making counter space impossible. Every door takes away valuable potential counter space. My kitchen has just the single connection to the rest of the house and a passage to the pantry. The passage to the pantry has a door to the porch, but traffic to the porch has not been an problem.