Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 7)

[nathanm]

Anyone have a pork normande SV recipe or experience (pork with apples, cider, cream)?

My instinct is to cook the cubed shoulder pork somthing like 12 hours at 60C in the hard cider, then finish with cream, apples, vegetable garnish etc

Its not confit - it needs to be meltingly tender but retain some structure

This all depends on the final texture you want. We do pork shoulder for up to 48 hours at 60C. You get different texture at 24, 48 and 72 hours. We also like it at 65C for 36 hours, or pressure cooked for one hour. Each is very different result.

I think you will find that the fatty portions are not quite tender enough if you do only 12 hours.

Given your description I would guess 24 to 48 hours at 60C is your best bet.

[KennethT]

Quick Q: anyone ever SV banana leaf for an extended period of time? Wondering if it will go bitter like aromatics.

I've done things wrapped in banana leaf - like a yucatan style pork shoulder, rubbed with achiote and lime, wrapped in a banana leaf and cooked at either 155F for 24 hours, 176 for 12 hours, or 182 for 8 hours... the banana leaf didn't impart that much flavor at 155, but it imparted a lot of aromatics at both 176 and 182... neither of them were bitter, although we didn't actually eat the banana leaf (does anyone actually do that?)

[ScottyBoy]

Anyone have a pork normande SV recipe or experience (pork with apples, cider, cream)?

My instinct is to cook the cubed shoulder pork somthing like 12 hours at 60C in the hard cider, then finish with cream, apples, vegetable garnish etc

Its not confit - it needs to be meltingly tender but retain some structure

When I want the the shoulder to be tender but still retain some structure in "chunks" I can carve on the plate. I go 65 for 36 hours, good luck and I'd like to hear about the outcome! Are you going to burn off the alcohol from the hard cider before the vacuum?

[jackal10]

The shoulder is cubed before cooking. Maybe brined.The skin crisped and puffed seperately

I ws going to seal it with some apple juice, apple brandy (not burnt off - only a small glassful), some cider vinegar, softened onions, bay leaf and seasoning.

After cooking, reduce the bag juice and finish with creme fraiche and caramelised apple slices.

I think red cabbage, rice or mashed potato might go well,

[dougal]

The shoulder is cubed before cooking. Maybe brined.The skin crisped and puffed seperately

I ws going to seal it with some apple juice, apple brandy (not burnt off - only a small glassful), some cider vinegar, softened onions, bay leaf and seasoning.

After cooking, reduce the bag juice and finish with creme fraiche and caramelised apple slices.

I think red cabbage, rice or mashed potato might go well,

Is the alcohol in the best place?

Might it not be better to leave it out of the sv bag and perhaps flambée the meat (or maybe simply (rustically?) fortify the sauce) before service?

One of the appealing (to me anyway) concepts of sv is the possibility of accurate 'prototyping' or 'test driving' - making a single portion of a recipe to test the idea (or perhaps a few single portions with variations, for example to compare different durations) - before making a large quantity for any sort of 'event'.

This approach is surely particularly apt with materials like cubed pork ... isn't it?

It mainly requires enough time (just simmering time, rather than man-hours) before the event, rather than any other resources.

[nathanm]

One of the appealing (to me anyway) concepts of sv is the possibility of accurate 'prototyping' or 'test driving' - making a single portion of a recipe to test the idea (or perhaps a few single portions with variations, for example to compare different durations) - before making a large quantity for any sort of 'event'.

This approach is surely particularly apt with materials like cubed pork ... isn't it?

It mainly requires enough time (just simmering time, rather than man-hours) before the event, rather than any other resources.

That is a REALLY good point - SV does not rely on size effects, so you can test drive a small portion and it will work well. Indeed that is how we test things for the book - we do multiple pieces and then cook them for various times. When we like a time-temp combintaion we do a larger sample to be sure.

[FoodMan]

The shoulder is cubed before cooking. Maybe brined.The skin crisped and puffed seperately

I ws going to seal it with some apple juice, apple brandy (not burnt off - only a small glassful), some cider vinegar, softened onions, bay leaf and seasoning.

After cooking, reduce the bag juice and finish with creme fraiche and caramelised apple slices.

I think red cabbage, rice or mashed potato might go well,

I just recently cooked and wrote about a sous vide pork shoulder I did here. I found out that arount 70C for about 20-22 hours worked great for my purpose and it is similar to what you are looking for. It sliced great and crisped nicely but was also tender and unctuous.

[PedroG]

Some time ago I cut a pork shoulder in three parts, bagged them with marinade (9 days at 1°C) and cooked them SV at 55°C for 24h / 48h / 72h, post-searing in almost smoking-hot rice-bran-oil.

72h was fork-tender, succulent and almost falling apart, but in its lean parts a bit dry.

24h and 48h were tender, succulent and juicy, but not perfectly fork-tender.

In all three cases the fat was perfectly soft, there was a nice crust, and the interior was pink after some contact with air.

[lennyk]

I'm looking to SV pork spare ribs with dry rub as a means of shortening the time in the smoker.

My intention is SV beforehand for however long, freeze, then on day of serving thaw and stick in the smoker for hour or so at higher than normal(220-250) smoking temps,

eg 300 to get them colored fast and fat rendered for taste.

I know the rub should be reduced a bit, any suggestions for temps and time ?

Don't want to do 812hours cooks though.

Actually, I've just read Douglas's site and have a starting point, although his method is intended for complete cook.

Edited September 23, 2010 by lennyk (log)

[percival]

For pork, you could brine for a day, then do 131-135 Fahrenheit for 6-8 hours to get the collagenase to do its duty on the meat and get it medium rare. It'll still be tough and none of the fat will have rendered. You intend to finish the cooking in the smoker, right?

[lennyk]

Yes, spare ribs are normally 4 hours or so at 235 in the smoker,

wanna be able to reduce that to 90 mins or so and get the color/smoke flavor in

[Chris Amirault]

Smoking them first and then finishing on a grill works really well, btw. I've done it a few times now and the results are excellent: some char, rendered fat, and meat just the way you like it (whatever that means).

Wanted to report on a few vegetable projects following Keller's Under Pressure 85C advice.

Pumpkin fans should take note that SV is, far and away, the best way to prepare this finicky squash. I put ~3/4" cleaned, skin-on pieces into a bag with nothing else, and after 60m they were tender and bright, bright orange. After testing it out of the freezer, I'm planning to do several more so that we have a store of pumpkin for the fall.

Also at 85C, I SVed small red potatoes with rosemary, pepper, and smoked salt for 90m and finished them on the grill for some smoke and char. I think 120m would have been a better time if I wasn't finishing on the grill, as they were a bit too toothy out of the bag.

One note about these potatoes: they were somewhat grey and splotchy out of the bag. I'm not sure if they were that way in the bag or if something happened when they hit the air. Anyone got an opinion?

[nickrey]

Sounds like what happens when potatoes oxidise. You could try adding some acid to the bag which should give a similar effect to putting it in acidulated water.

Edited September 23, 2010 by nickrey (log)

[Chris Amirault]

I intentionally avoided acid in the bag for flavor reasons, trying to replicate a roasted potato dish we have here often. I wish I had been more attentive and knew whether they were blotchy in the bag or immediately after the cut faces being exposed to the air. I also wonder how deep the blotches go....

[e_monster]

I agree with Chris A. Smoke them first. They only need 10 to 20 minutes in the smoker. I would do that at a lower temp than 235 F if you can. Then bag them. The earlier in the cooking process that the smoke is introduced, the better in my experience. Smoking after the meat is cooked doesn't seem to work as well.

!0 minutes in the smoker before sous-vide should be adequate. The smoke flavor is then locked in the bag during cooking and penetrates nicely.

Use the search button at the bottom of the page to look for 'ribs'. I posted the temperature/time that I used for some killer baby back ribs that came out smoky and tender.

Yes, spare ribs are normally 4 hours or so at 235 in the smoker,

wanna be able to reduce that to 90 mins or so and get the color/smoke flavor in

[dougal]

...

Also at 85C, I SVed small red potatoes with rosemary, pepper, and smoked salt for 90m and finished them on the grill for some smoke and char. I think 120m would have been a better time if I wasn't finishing on the grill, as they were a bit too toothy out of the bag.

One note about these potatoes: they were somewhat grey and splotchy out of the bag. ... Anyone got an opinion?

Maybe Iodised salt ??

[Chris Amirault]

Does iodine limit oxidation?

ETA: It was Hawaiian pink salt, btw, not iodized.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Chris Amirault (log)

[dougal]

Does iodine limit oxidation?

ETA: It was Hawaiian pink salt, btw, not iodized.

OK, if you've eliminated that, then its out already.

Blackening of starch is a very sensitive test for dissolved iodine.

If that were somehow being liberated (even to a truly tiny extent), there would be the possibility of trying to eliminate it by using non-iodised salt.

But you are already!

Do you have a sample of this batch of potatoes to test (for comparison) by conventional cooking? That way you might see whether the unconventional cooking method had contributed to this artifact, or whether it was due to something in the potatoes, like their (pre-purchase) storage and handling conditions.

[Chris Amirault]

I have no more of them, but they were bought at a farm and I had prepared several other batches without SV that didn't produce these effects. Still, way to many variables to conclude anything.

[mark28209]

I haven't noticed it posted here yet, but y'all should have a look at the excellent article in today's NYTimes on "Modernist Cuisine":

www.nytimes.com/2010/09/22/dining/22cookbook.html?_r=1&ref=dining

I hope I live close enough to regularly visit someone who can afford to buy Nathan's obviously amazing work.

Has there been previous discussion of the possibility of digital/DVD/etc. or online access to it?

Cheers, Mark

[MartinH]

Looks like KitchenAid is making a foray into the market for sous vide equipment with a system called Chef Touch. It has a chamber vacuum unit, a freezer/chiller unit, and a steam oven unit - but oddly no water bath - all stacked together in a stainless steel tower.

Here's a YouTube video. I imagine the system is only avaliable in Europe, and no doubt shockingly expensive.

[jackal10]

Pork normande results.

36 hours at 60C was definately too long or too hot, giving the pork shoulder cubes a fuzzy blotting paper texture.

24 hours at 58C is about the upper limit, for melt in the mouth texture.

If you are planning on re-heating I would scale that back to 18 or even 12 hours

[PeteJ]

Looks like KitchenAid is making a foray into the market for sous vide equipment with a system called Chef Touch. It has a chamber vacuum unit, a freezer/chiller unit, and a steam oven unit - but oddly no water bath - all stacked together in a stainless steel tower.

I don’t know anything about steam ovens, but does the use of steam imply that they’re cooking at the boiling temperature of water? Also, wouldn’t a steam oven have far less heat conductivity than a water bath?

[Chris Hennes]

Looks like KitchenAid is making a foray into the market for sous vide equipment with a system called Chef Touch. It has a chamber vacuum unit, a freezer/chiller unit, and a steam oven unit - but oddly no water bath - all stacked together in a stainless steel tower.

Presumably the steam oven works just like a combi-oven, right? That's what a lot of professionals doing large quantities of SV are using these days. I don't see why you'd want or need a water bath if you had one.

[jackal10]

Has anyone tried he Kenwood cooking chef http://www.kenwoodworld.com/en/CookingChef/Home/ which builds an induction cooker into a mixer, albeit at a high price?

The web stite states temperature control in +/- 5C, with a precision on 2C, and this for a stirred system. It seems to me that the manufactureres are missing a trick here. At the high price they charge it surely could not have been that expensive to add a more precise PID temperature control...